To pastors & leaders who do not belong here.

[Joseph]

After belonging to this forum for awhile, I've come to realize that there are people who enter here who don't belong here, such as pastors and leaders who's intent is not good.
You need to accept some things, the experiences that you read about here are not imaginary and they were created for the most part by leaders like you or your spiritual offspring, not Christ. If you were right in your actions, why are you lurking in the shadows now? Stop using Jesus, who would never stand for the destruction that you cause, for an excuse to pursue your so called vision. You might be hearing voices, but if they tear down instead of build up, they're probably not from God.
I am not in ministry, just a 43 year old construction worker who loves Jesus, I've laid my life down for the Lord only to have it trampled and ripped apart by leaders in the pursuit of money and power and supposedly, in the name of Jesus. So if you want to attack anyone, why don't you start with me?

I doubt you will though, I've also noticed that you only pick on people when you think they're weaker than you, the strong ones you just hope go away without a fuss, right?

Or maybe you would like to repent a little, if your pride would allow it.

Joe

[butterfly]

:) Well said Joe. butterfly

[ex-shep]

:) Well said Joe. butterfly


I agree wholeheartedly. I am trifle confused as to what generated the post in the first place.

[ninaspirit]

I agree wholeheartedly. I am trifle confused as to what generated the post in the first place.


some body's pastors and T and H coming here looking for info against a nice person.

[Satscout]

I agree wholeheartedly. I am trifle confused as to what generated the post in the first place.

I suspect it was Leslie's comment that her husband told the elders et al that she posted here and was pointing to her posts as inflammatory. Hence, the vitriol against those who read the posts here with the intent to harm.

[ex-shep]

I suspect it was Leslie's comment that her husband told the elders et al that she posted here and was pointing to her posts as inflammatory. Hence, the vitriol against those who read the posts here with the intent to harm.

Must have been asleep at the switch that day. Pity:(

[Joseph]

I just want to clarify a bit. This is not a reaction towards any member here, you folks are great. I have reason to believe that someone I might know possibly might be here.

Also, Leslie's thread is making me feel like saying "Enough Already", my heart really goes out to her. Here's a woman that is trying to save her family and once again, people are sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong.

They are just looking to tear her down until she submits, they are trying to isolate her so they can out number her.

Here's a woman who was looking forward to any opportunity to reach out to her husband and they refuse to acknowledge that.

I keep saying "they" because "individually" no one seems to be able to think for themselves, they get together in secret, make decisions about things that they have no business being involved in, slap a "wisdom" label on it, and destroy people.

In my own case, the people, so called leaders, I know that might be reading this won't respond to me because they have done things that are wrong and I can and will expose them legally which will cost them if they push me.

I right here pastor, fire away,
Joe

[Carmen]

I agree with you Joe, and want to say something to such pastors and leaders - including husbands that do not walk with their wives but over them:

(BE CAREFUL --- WILL TRIGGER)

An excerpt from my testimony of spiritual abuse - I had to talk about myself in the third person, because it was too horrible to talk about in the first person.

"….This lack of love and mercy cannot be justified by scripture. Jesus showed us mercy while we were still sinners. Eph 2:4-5, “But God who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;).” We will also be judged for our actions, but as Christians that have obeyed or shirked our duties, and judgment takes place after mercy. Jn 5:28-30; Acts 17:31. Should we not do the same with others as Jesus did for us and show mercy before we show judgment? 1 Pet 4: 7-10.” 27.

What can justify what the pastor had done to Carmen? Job expressed it well in his lamentation in Job 30:24, "Surely no one lays a hand on a broken man when he cries for help in his distress." The letter Carmen wrote at the beginning had a different title when she wrote it to the pastor - it was appropriately called "A Loud Cry of Grief". The pastor of Carmen's parents had read the same letter and recognized her pain. The pastor in question not only ignored that cry but did lay hands on her with his letters.

God, however, responds differently to such cries.
"The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their cry; the face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth. The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles. The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. Evil will slay the wicked; the foes of the righteous will be condemned. The LORD redeems his servants; no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him." Psalm 34:15-22. "(The LORD) heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds." Psalm 147:3. Jesus' words were in Isaiah long before he came, "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners" Isaiah 61:1.

Paul went to check the Corinthians, but who will check this pastor and congregation? Without denominational controls there can be no intervention by man.

I have had the humbling and educative experience of having to follow my own advice in the past so I can heartily recommend the pastor in question to re-read his letters and examine his own heart in their light before the one that examines hearts comes and examines his."
End of quote.

YOU who have come here to spy with intention to hurt - re-think your words and actions - judge them and judge your motives before Jesus Christ has to do it for you. I know not only God's love but also know to fear him. He put his fear on me once as it is mentioned many times in Scripture so that I could recognize the wrong I was doing, change my ways and avoid being punished - and I hope it doesn't have to happen to you before you must see what you are doing. He is loving but he is bigger and more powerful than you can imagine, and he is with the poor, the widows, the orphans, the brokenhearted and crushed in spirit. You cannot call yourself Christian and go against his will and way as you have been doing, indefinitely. You are walking on the edge of a knife.

You may have used these verses of Scripture to intimidate people, but re-think what they might mean for you if you continue as you are:

"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:29-31.

Don't let it get that far! I know what I am talking about. I am pleading with you as a fellow Christian to get it together before He will come and do it for you.

THIS MAY BE THE LAST WARNING YOU GET! HEED IT!

[jane]

it is my belief that the pastors invovled in dysfunction (and not all pastors are) are they themselves victims of abuse and control.

I remember when our pastor went to a pastor's conference. He came back with new ideas and visions........... it was like the conferences are churning out this brainwashing stuff- MORE numbers, MORE success, MORE buildings, MORE programs........

When he talked about his training to be a pastor, he described situations that he said taught him to have a humble heart- that in my mind was wicked and abusive by his own teachers. Very unlike the way Jesus was while training his leaders.....

I don't justify the abuse that he is doing..........

nor do I justify what is going on by the pastor's of the people here.........

I am just torn up by the pain, anger, and destruction that I see in the body of Christ.

It is my heartfelt prayers that if a pastor does find this site, that they are given a new understanding........ a new revelation..........and a renewed first love for Jesus and people.


love
jane

[Jerry]

I am not in ministry, just a 43 year old construction worker who loves Jesus, I've laid my life down for the Lord only to have it trampled and ripped apart by leaders in the pursuit of money and power and supposedly, in the name of Jesus. So if you want to attack anyone, why don't you start with me?

I doubt you will though, I've also noticed that you only pick on people when you think they're weaker than you, the strong ones you just hope go away without a fuss, right?

Or maybe you would like to repent a little, if your pride would allow it.


And if you don't want to Repent but continue being a "Scripture Wizzard",,,,,Then may your "Genitalia" be infested with "Huge Festering Boils" :mad:
Jerry

[Willow]

Hey Joe... Jesus was a carpenter... that's kinda like a construction worker, eh?

[ex-shep]

Glanced at the posts. Need to get ready for work. Will try to read later. Good points.

[mstar]

Maybe they will learn something. I sure have.

Am praying they will and along with some repentance. Alot of repentance.

This is no game, Mr. Christian leadership lurker. There are painful stories on this web site, and the Lord hears everyone of them. He defends His children.

BTW, "Ichabod" does not look good on a church door.

"Behold your house is being left desolate" Jeremiah 22:5

[Willow]

You need to accept some things, the experiences that you read about here are not imaginary and they were created for the most part by leaders like you or your spiritual offspring, not Christ.

This statement is prolific and has had me thinking for days about words my pastor used to describe those who were wounded by him. He ridiculed people with words like, "They say they want God to use them, then when I put them to work they say they feel used." Another quote is, "It's just people Amy." Any time someone was having a disagreement or a disappointment it was because they were "needy". A quote from a different pastor in the same vein, "You are either a child or a hired hand". Those who had some idea of caring for themselves were the selfish hired hands. Those who allowed themselves to be used up and thrown out were the true children. Anyway... this is the stream of thought in the network of churches where I was involved.

[jjc9497]

TO MY PASTOR (and any others lurking out there):

I expected you to comfort me when I grieved my lost childhood.
I expected you to be angry for me when I told you of the youth pastor who
sexually assaulted me.
I expected you to protect the children in the church from predators instead of
keeping "the secret".
I expected you to pray for me after you preached about praying for one another.
I expected your compassion when I was suicidal and needed your help.

I guess I expected too much.

[Meg Evenstar]

TO MY PASTOR (and any others lurking out there):

I expected you to comfort me when I grieved my lost childhood.
I expected you to be angry for me when I told you of the youth pastor who
sexually assaulted me.
I expected you to protect the children in the church from predators instead of
keeping "the secret".
I expected you to pray for me after you preached about praying for one another.
I expected your compassion when I was suicidal and needed your help.

I guess I expected too much.

Profound is all I can say. This says it all.

Meg

[ninaspirit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjc9497
TO MY PASTOR (and any others lurking out there):

I expected you to comfort me when I grieved my lost childhood.
I expected you to be angry for me when I told you of the youth pastor who
sexually assaulted me.
I expected you to protect the children in the church from predators instead of
keeping "the secret".
I expected you to pray for me after you preached about praying for one another.
I expected your compassion when I was suicidal and needed your help.

I guess I expected too much.


Profound is all I can say. This says it all.

Meg

us too. Ninas

[Joseph]

Dear Jane, Your right by saying not all pastors are like this, I've known some great pastors. My point was that the ones here looking to hurt are not those pastors. I do also agree with your other point about christian organizations brainwashing people, I see it with some christian colleges that I have associated with, it can be an eye opener for sure.

MStar, I'm sorry about your own situation, I didn't realize that you were going through this too until I read your thread tonight. You will absolutely get my prayers.

Carmen, What can I say, your insight and knowledge continues to enlighten me. Thanks

Amy, There is no way to win in these types of churches, there additude is "Your either with me or against me" even if your neither. The pastor will tear people down to justify what he is trying to accomplish ( Idon't know if that made sense), I mean, he will try to make you feel like you're defective in some way.

Jerry, I'm glad your on our side.

JJC9497, God must have given you great strength to endure your trials, despite your ex-pastor, and Meg is right, your post does say it all.

I would like to expand on something Carmen touched on, husbands, please stand by your wives and families, marriage is so sacred in Gods eyes and no man should interfere. You are the prophet, priest and king of your home, how can you be these things that God asks you to be if you follow other people and let them tell you what you should be thinking and how you should act? Men need to become men again.
If you continue down this path, and when the smoke clears, your alone, you get to see your kids every other week, please let me know how blessed you are. I'm sure your pastor and leaders will tell you while they go home with their wives and kids.

Joe

[truth]

TO MY PASTOR (and any others lurking out there):

I expected you to comfort me when I grieved my lost childhood.
I expected you to be angry for me when I told you of the youth pastor who
sexually assaulted me.
I expected you to protect the children in the church from predators instead of
keeping "the secret".
I expected you to pray for me after you preached about praying for one another.
I expected your compassion when I was suicidal and needed your help.

I guess I expected too much.

I find myself speechless at this, what more can anyone add?

[Janice]

Men need to become men again.

AMEN AND AMEN!!! Just because someone Has a husband doesn't necessarily mean they 'have it all!"

[Joseph]

Just to add to the husband comments I made, in my experience, I've seen where men will begin to get close to the pastor or leadership group and then strive for acceptance into this group and eventually a position in the group. They look up to these people and allow themselves to be guided by them, virtually unquestioned, for fear of being cast out of the group. These men often overdue there authority in the home (because not too many other people will put up with them and they really don't have any authority over anyone else) and wind up hurting their family. They are making the church into God (a very good point that Meg made in another thread), and worshiping the church entity that is essentially man made, and if you see practices that are questionable at best but are truly not based in Jesus, what are you doing? Can you not read the Bible with your family and make deccisions on your own?
Why are you willing to extend so much Grace to the church leaders and none to your family?
Do you realize that your family loves you for better or worse, even when you screw up?
If you reversed the roles and dedicated your time and love to your family, listened to them, extended Grace when they made mistakes, and treated the church leaders like you do your family now, how long do you think it will take for them to slam the door in your face?
Domination is not submission, submission is an extension of love and trust for one another.
You cannot demand submission like the church leaders demand from you.

You have a responsibility that was given to you by God to lead and guide your family, there is a place for submission for husband, wife and children, all in Gods order, right?

We are supposed to submit to God, Jesus, not pastor or elder. You need to be careful not to put your pastor in a seat next to Gods Throne.
You do not protect the pastor at all costs, without accountability all you have is a dictatorship.

Wake up man, your dying!

Joe

[Janice]

PREACH IT BROTHER JOE!

[mary]

Amen! - to all that's been said here. Thank you, Joe, for starting this thread and for your eloquent challenge to the false shepherds who are checking out this board. They really are as roaring lions, still prowling around, looking to see whom they may devour. However, their eternal destiny is set (if the Lord doesn't scoop them up, give them grace to repent and turn them around) and they basically know it. We are the "stench of death" - their own - to them and they can't stand it. (2 Corinthians 2:14-16; Ezekiel 34:4-6, 10.) I couldn't, either, if I were in their stinking shoes.

Everyone else, thank you! As one who was subjected to a pattern of some degree of criminal sexual conduct by her "pastor" over the course of a couple of years, along with other types of abusive behavior (I, too, thought he "cared" about me - how stupid could I have been?! :( ), I treasure the poem that jjc9497, I think, posted. That's exactly how I feel...

(I have also been posting on the thread entitled "Vindication." It's been a week since my slander warning letter was sent to "pastor" and I've heard nothing. I intend to make a couple of "hi, how're you doing?" calls to people I helped minister to in the congregation while "pastor" was too busy playing golf to care about them while they were sick, etc. Just checking, too, to see what grounds there might be out there for a bona fide suit for slander...)

What I like about all this is that the Lord is, even now, "setting a table" for these con artists, frauds, liars and sexual predators and their condemnation will come down on them more severely than that will that of any other sinners. (James 3:1.)

God bless all of you; you are beautiful in His sight, for in attacking those who would devour His lambs, you are doing His work!

mary

[Jerry]

For you abusive Pastors lurking here,,,,,we have said many things about you,,,,,there is "One" who reads here but never posts.He posted to you guys long ago,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Ezekiel 22 vs 5-16 ,,,,,,go read it ;)
Love Jerry

[mary]

Jerry, I think we should clue these false shepherds in that most Bibles have "tables of contents" at the front of them. I doubt that a lot of them can even find the Book of Ezekiel without that little piece of info... ;) :D

My own former "pastor," last summer, though, preached a whole, 50-minute sermon on Ezekiel 3 without ever mentioning the name of Jesus Christ, except for "eliding over it" as an aside after 49 minutes, 30 seconds of rabbinic exposition of the chapter. Our son went charging up to him after the service, in the narthex, and asked him how he could do that. "Pastor" said, "Well, Jesus Christ was implied throughout my sermon and if you didn't get it, you're the one who misinterpreted it." Our son just walked away, shaking his head.

mary

[NotGrindedDown]

After belonging to this forum for awhile, I've come to realize that there are people who enter here who don't belong here, such as pastors and leaders who's intent is not good.
You need to accept some things, the experiences that you read about here are not imaginary and they were created for the most part by leaders like you or your spiritual offspring, not Christ. If you were right in your actions, why are you lurking in the shadows now? Stop using Jesus, who would never stand for the destruction that you cause, for an excuse to pursue your so called vision. You might be hearing voices, but if they tear down instead of build up, they're probably not from God.
I am not in ministry, just a 43 year old construction worker who loves Jesus, I've laid my life down for the Lord only to have it trampled and ripped apart by leaders in the pursuit of money and power and supposedly, in the name of Jesus. So if you want to attack anyone, why don't you start with me?

I doubt you will though, I've also noticed that you only pick on people when you think they're weaker than you, the strong ones you just hope go away without a fuss, right?

Or maybe you would like to repent a little, if your pride would allow it.

Joe


:eek:

Well said, Joe. I think that the CE also trauls these sites and spreads their Nazi-like crucifixions. But I can't prove it.
Best keep very anonymous and betray no clues!

[Jerry]

Jerry, I think we should clue these false shepherds in that most Bibles have "tables of contents" at the front of them. I doubt that a lot of them can even find the Book of Ezekiel without that little piece of info... ;) :D

My own former "pastor," last summer, though, preached a whole, 50-minute sermon on Ezekiel 3 without ever mentioning the name of Jesus Christ, except for "eliding over it" as an aside after 49 minutes, 30 seconds of rabbinic exposition of the chapter. Our son went charging up to him after the service, in the narthex, and asked him how he could do that. "Pastor" said, "Well, Jesus Christ was implied throughout my sermon and if you didn't get it, you're the one who misinterpreted it." Our son just walked away, shaking his head.

maryDear Mary,it all boils down to the last verse of chapter 3 of Ezekiel.That is what is happening to us,,,,,,,,,,,,and them :D
Love Jerry

[mary]

Dear Jerry,

As Ed McMahon used to say to the late Johnny Carson, "You are right, SIR!!!" :)

mary

[Carmen]

jcc,

That was really deep! Ouch! :eek: :( :)

[truth]

Just to add to the husband comments I made, in my experience, I've seen where men will begin to get close to the pastor or leadership group and then strive for acceptance into this group and eventually a position in the group. They look up to these people and allow themselves to be guided by them, virtually unquestioned, for fear of being cast out of the group. These men often overdue there authority in the home (because not too many other people will put up with them and they really don't have any authority over anyone else) and wind up hurting their family. They are making the church into God (a very good point that Meg made in another thread), and worshiping the church entity that is essentially man made, and if you see practices that are questionable at best but are truly not based in Jesus, what are you doing? Can you not read the Bible with your family and make deccisions on your own?
Why are you willing to extend so much Grace to the church leaders and none to your family?
Do you realize that your family loves you for better or worse, even when you screw up?
If you reversed the roles and dedicated your time and love to your family, listened to them, extended Grace when they made mistakes, and treated the church leaders like you do your family now, how long do you think it will take for them to slam the door in your face?
Domination is not submission, submission is an extension of love and trust for one another.
You cannot demand submission like the church leaders demand from you.

You have a responsibility that was given to you by God to lead and guide your family, there is a place for submission for husband, wife and children, all in Gods order, right?

We are supposed to submit to God, Jesus, not pastor or elder. You need to be careful not to put your pastor in a seat next to Gods Throne.
You do not protect the pastor at all costs, without accountability all you have is a dictatorship.

Wake up man, your dying!

Joe

WOWYou can preach at my church anytime! (I don't really have one right now but if I did.......):D

[mary]

Going along with the immediately previous post, I'd like to add this quote by Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834) that I found the other day:

"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end by loving himself better than all."

That's what these rotters are all about, isn't it?

If I could say one last thing to my particular Rev. Vicious, I would tell him that he needs to get the blazes out of that pulpit and get saved.

Now, if only I could reconnect with the Lord... Guess I just need to stay in prayer and in the Word...

mary

[Meg Evenstar]

Going along with the immediately previous post, I'd like to add this quote by Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834) that I found the other day:

"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end by loving himself better than all."

That's what these rotters are all about, isn't it?

If I could say one last thing to my particular Rev. Vicious, I would tell him that he needs to get the blazes out of that pulpit and get saved.

Now, if only I could reconnect with the Lord... Guess I just need to stay in prayer and in the Word...

mary

Yes, Mary that is what those rotters really are about.

Meg

[Joseph]

Hey Mary, That is a great quote! I'm gonna save that one for sure. It does really sum it up doesn't it.

Joe

[Janice]

"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end by loving himself better than all."


SAD! VERY SAD! BUT OH...SO TRUE!

[mary]

I think the quote also goes along with, I believe, Gwen's posting about the book "Toxic Faith." I was very struck by the description of the type "outcast" in that post.

I've been an "outcast" in about three churches now - but this last one was by far the worst church experience I've ever had - just for trying to gently and politely, always with a smile, point out doctrinal truths, "non-sequiturs" in behavior such as preaching "love one another" from the pulpit but then sanctioning outright cliques, the guiltiest party of whom is often "pastor's" wife, etc. I never "get in anyone's face." I'm hardly intimidating; I'm 4'10" and I weigh barely 100 lbs. I don't barge into established cliques; I just try to be pleasant to absolutely everyone wherever I go. Obviously, that doesn't work when what you're really dealing with is one of the devil's own strongholds. You just, unfortunately and by no fault of your own, get duped into thinking it's a "church." So sad.

I am definitely going to look for "Toxic Faith" when I'm out and about today. If I don't see it, I'm going to order it somewhere.

mary

[Eleanor]

Joseph.

I keep looking and looking for the posts of the people you are addressing as being pastors or whatever not belonging here, but I can't locate them. Maybe I am just not used to this posting and thread format yet Which ones are their posts?
I sure don't want to have a run in with them.

Thanks,
Eleanor

[Meg Evenstar]

Joseph.

I keep looking and looking for the posts of the people you are addressing as being pastors or whatever not belonging here, but I can't locate them. Maybe I am just not used to this posting and thread format yet Which ones are their posts?
I sure don't want to have a run in with them.

Thanks,
Eleanor

Eleanor, they are not posting here, they are reading here. Look at Leslie's threads. Her pastor is reading her posts.

Meg

[Eleanor]

Ok. Thanks Meg. I understand now. I hadn't read all the post here yet so I was behind I guess.


Eleanor

[Reg]

I think the quote also goes along with, I believe, Gwen's posting about the book "Toxic Faith." I was very struck by the description of the type "outcast" in that post.

I've been an "outcast" in about three churches now - but this last one was by far the worst church experience I've ever had - just for trying to gently and politely, always with a smile, point out doctrinal truths, "non-sequiturs" in behavior such as preaching "love one another" from the pulpit but then sanctioning outright cliques, the guiltiest party of whom is often "pastor's" wife, etc. I never "get in anyone's face." I'm hardly intimidating; I'm 4'10" and I weigh barely 100 lbs. I don't barge into established cliques; I just try to be pleasant to absolutely everyone wherever I go. Obviously, that doesn't work when what you're really dealing with is one of the devil's own strongholds. You just, unfortunately and by no fault of your own, get duped into thinking it's a "church." So sad.

I am definitely going to look for "Toxic Faith" when I'm out and about today. If I don't see it, I'm going to order it somewhere.

mary

Hi Mary,

I posted that section a little while ago. Here's the thread...........
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1704&highlight=Outcast


I'll post it again for the newer people here.
I agree, it is a great book and I think we all can identify with the outcast part.

Toxic-Faith” (Chapter 7) The Five Roles in a Toxic-Faith System.

The are Persecutor - Co-Conspirator - Enabler - Victim - Outcast. I want to focus on The Outcast role.

The Role of the Outcast

Of the five roles in the toxic-faith system, only one is not a religious addict or bound by toxic-
faith. In most toxic-fath systems, someone can usually see the problem and confront it. Unwilling
to play the games of the persecutor and co-conspirators, the person becomes the outcast.

These people who stand up for what is right and challenge the system lose their jobs, friends,
and church. They become lone voices in the wilderness, crying out for change that will not come
as long as the persecutor dictates power, the co-conspirators manipulate the system, the enablers
allow it to continue, and the victims fall in line with blind faith. When outcasts surface, they are
identified as troublemakers and pushed out of the system as soon as possible.

Forced to Rebel

In a healthy system, individuals respect the person and position of leadership. For it to remain
healthy, there must also be respect for the workers. Without respect, the “hired hands” are not
allowed to disagree. If they don’t like something, they are labeled complainers, negative thinkers,
and not team players. The toxic-faith system has no place for anyone who challenges the integrity
of disagrees with the methods of the leader. In a toxic-faith system, loyalty is equated with blind
faith and complete agreement with the leader.

Allegiance that requires overlooking the truth must be pledged daily. When allegiance
evaporates, the confrontational workers of church members are labeled as outcasts and rejected
by the organization. In this they are forced to rebel, since the organization allows no room for
disagreement.

Outcasts who challenge the delusion of the system are discredited immediately. The toxic-faith
system creates a lose-lose situation where the outcasts must give up perceptions of reality or be
willing to face complete rejection. Abandonment becomes the reward for trying to correct the
ministry.

Outcasts can interpret reality for themselves. Even when their perception of reality contradicts
that of hundreds or thousands of followers, they can clearly see the problems and press for
solutions to those problems. Outcasts are unimpressed by position or personhood. They love
God and want to protect His people and His institutions from spiritual fraud.

Those who are dedicated to God have little difficulty seeing others’ dedication to egos and
empires. They are forced to suffer for what they see because they refuse to watch people live a lie
and abuse others. No toxic-faith system can handle this keen insight and dedication to truth.
They must place their jobs and the church they love on the altar of sacrifice as they are forced to
move on to a place free from toxic-faith.

Hope for the Outcast

God honours those who are willing to sacrifice their comfort at the altar of what is right. God has
a special place in His heart for the heros of a toxic-faith system. Those who stand up for God and
tell the world the emperor has no clothes will receive their reward sooner of later.

I have talked with some of these courageous outcasts, and I know of the pain and suffering they
endured when they rejected the toxic-faith system. But all is not terrible for the outcasts. They
feel good about finally taking a stand. They also feel the respect of others who value their
courageous acts.

The hope for these outcasts is that many great men and women of God and many great churches
exist where God can be found. Rejected in one place, they will be honoured through the integrity
of the organization’s leadership.

It then goes on to list the characteristics of the Outcast.

● Is not a religious addict
● Does not possess a toxic-faith
● Willingly stands alone
● Stands up for what is right
● Is willing to be rejected by others in a toxic-faith system
● Can discern right from wrong
● Commits to leaders having integrity
● Refuses to be victimized by false teaching and lack of integrity
● Speaks out for truth
● Usually loses a job within a toxic organization over concern for it
● Suffers rejection by friends after challenging the leadership of those in the toxic-faith
system
● Often is treated as a leper
● Is begged by others in a toxic-faith system to support the persecutor
● Endures shame of others
● Refuses to respect of be manipulated by those in a toxic-faith system
● Sees the truth and acts on it even if it produces great personal pain
● Interprets reality for self
● Is motivated to protect people from spiritual fraud
● Is very dedicated to God and the people who seek a relationship with Him
● Commands respect of others for courage

[truth]

That is so good, Reg...I read the book, too and found it very helpful...

Thank you for sharing this info again, need to revisit this info!

truth

[Meg Evenstar]

Very profound Reg. That's all I can say. This is something I am going to share with others.

Meg

[mary]

Oh, Reg, thank you so much!!! :) This is just what I and so many others of us need!

I think I need to read this excerpt over and over again and then, we also need to remember a few historical facts. Martin Luther was an outcast. J. Gresham Machen (a founder of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church) - outcast. C. H. Spurgeon - outcast. Herman Hoeksema, an early 20th-century stalwart of the Protestant Reformed Church - outcast. Why? Because they went against the errors and blasphemies that most in their particular denomination were willing to tolerate. Machen, Spurgeon and Hoeksema were seasoned pastors when they were respectively tossed from their congregations and denominations. They were each left without a friend, it seemed in the world, except for the best Friend any of us could have, the only Friend any of us really needs.

Once again, Reg, thank you! You are so kind to re-post this for us newcomers!!!

mary

[gwen]

I am definitely going to look for "Toxic Faith" when I'm out and about today. If I don't see it, I'm going to order it somewhere.



Did you find the book? They have this book in our local library system. I remember seeing the book and skimming through it at the library while I was still in our former "church", but I was too scared to read it at the time. I figured that it would reveal to me what I was involved with, but at the time I was trying to hang on because of the people in the congregation and didn't want to admit that I was involved in a toxic faith "church". Oh, the thought processes of a person under mind control! :confused:

Gwen

[Hope 98]

There is also a book called "More Jesus, Less Religion" that is just a slightly different perspective on the same material as "Toxic Faith". It's even written by the same author. It's a good alternative if you have trouble with the title :D

[Eleanor]

What a wonderful excerpt, Reg.

The roles outlined in the piece you posted could esily be those of a dysfunctional or toxic family - or ANY toxic organization, group, or community-Thanks Reg.


Eleanor

[Leslie]

Joe, thanks for starting this thread. You believe the leaders in your circle are reading here, too? That makes me curious about your reasons for staying there. I'll have to reread your past posts. I've been very self absorbed lately.

Mary, I'm so sorry this happened to you three times. I hope you're doing okay. The Toxic Faith excerpt Reg posted is a morale booster, isn't it?

Leslie

[Joseph]

Hi Leslie,

I've never been one to back down, I'm pissed off quite frankley, that I was driven out of church and I have family turned against me. I've spent this year healing some wounds and I know I'm right the way I feel. So, I stay here because I'm not running away from these people. They are confirming that I am right because with this thread I was calling them out and not one has responded so far. If they are so rightous, once again I invite correction, bring it! I am not angry, I've just had enough. They pick on people who are hurt and down and they won't mess with people like myself because I will show up in their church if they want to push it,(did you notice I said THEIR, not Gods church). These pastors and leaders are no different then the criminals and drug dealers on the street that I've encountered, sin is sin, and thank God for his Grace because it's the only thing that can save the day.

Here's something I wrote this week on another forum that is local around my former church:
Tuesday, December 20, 2005
Name: Joe Staib
Comment: I just would like to say a few things. I love Jesus, and that's why I don't attend church right know. I'm not speaking about one church but many I've attended over the past year. I'm not saying that there aren't good churches out there, but for the most part it's been a bunch of self serving nonsense, twisted Scripture, and personally gratifying vision. I'm not going to preach to you about Jesus, if you're a Christian and can think for yourself and read the Bible, you'll know what Jesus is all about. The rest of you will follow man and his interpretation of what Jesus is. No man stands between me and God except Jesus, and without His love & grace we are hopeless. These days I stand alone for Jesus and what He tells me that He stands for, and oddly enough, the people that are persecuting me for it are Christians. I am done with it, they have successfully driven me out of their churches. I know I know, I'm backsliding, I have a bad spirit, or a demon, yada yada yada, whatever, you're not putting that garbage on me. I have found freedom in Christ and it's not the freedom that's doled out according to how much you work or give. No Pastor or any man has any authority over the Freedom or Grace you receive from Christ. A Pastor that I new that had passed away some years ago, that was an incredible man of God, had a saying, Wake up, your dying. I think that says volumes, and I'm saying it to the church. Merry Christmas.

Now understand, the people that read this local forum all know me. The forum was started by a friend of mine who was also in my ex- church.

I guess I'm not going to take this garbage anymore, underneath it all I know who I am and I know Jesus loves me that way and if any pastor or church leader would like to step up and challenge me on this go right ahead, I'll be waiting.

Joe

[Meg Evenstar]

Joe, you have spoken so well. I could have written the same thing because it is how I feel too. The churches are dying even though they are filled to the brim singing praises, but who are they following? They want for nothing. They have it all. Millions for buildings, trips, and the luxuries of life, but wait, didn't Jesus say "I know your works and they are neither hot nor cold". I think He spoke a word to our current time ages ago, only we have forgotten and we no longer read.

Meg

[mary]

Joe, I say a firm "Amen!' to what you have written in your local post. You are absolutely right. Good churches? That teach the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ? That's evidently too tall an order for these "citadels of Satan" that masquerade as "churches" these days. They're all over the U.S. and Canada (we live close to the Canadian border and I listen to mostly Canadian radio stations, so I know what garbage is going on there as well). I am so sick and tired of these places, the very ones you so aptly and perfectly describe. I pray for the Lord's justice on them. Maybe someday, I'll feel like praying for His mercy on them, too, but right now, I'm just not up for it. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in my disgust: we are, after all, to hate what God hates (Psalm 139:19-22) and your eloquent post so capably displays precise aspects of that.

We, too, have no church home today, and I'm sad, disillusioned and angry. Is it because there was something "wrong" with my husband and me? No: it's because "pastor" was hitting on me for a couple of years; finally, my husband told him off over a particular hug and later, when he told me he wanted to continue hugging me "when he's not around," I told him NO. A few weeks later, he told me that I was "beyond his forgiveness and reconciliation" for some minor remark I'd made to him (it was something about him "morphing into my father" - who was a mean person - when he got so angry at my husband for telling him off). One other person left, largely because of the way we were treated, and after that person wrote him a note resigning, he sent this person an e-mail saying that "God" had given him "such amazing peace as a husband, father and pastor." More "amazing peace" arrived in his mailbox a couple of days later when he would have received the slander warning letter from our attorney. I hope he enjoyed it.

No one from that "church" speaks to us anymore. Okay, in years past, I questioned a couple of teachings - in private. "Pastor" told me, "I don't discuss theology or doctrine with anyone. This discussion ends here." What a package they have there: twit, moron, lech and sociopath, all rolled into one lowlife "minister." (There's something else he may be as well; it involves money, but I don't know too much about it yet...)

We need, as you say, just to stay in the Word and love the Lord as He commands. We're also to love our neighbor as ourselves and bless those who curse us... We will be getting our reward for doing as He commands. It just hurts now, though, that's all.

May the Lord bless you and keep you, Joe, in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ...

mary

[Joseph]

Right Meg,

Jesus spoke about this exactly! They want for nothing is a great way to express it, and, if I might add, all the wealth they accumulate automatically has the "We're so Blessed" label no matter how they've obtained it. If you also examine it closely, the people that are being "So Blessed" by all the money and perks are the handful on top.
People need to dive into the Bible for answers and stop depending on people to tell them what it means.

Joe

[Joseph]

Hi Mary,

I remember you posting about your experience with the hugging, I commend your husband for protecting his wife, he must be a great guy.

Any man who disrespects a man by coming on to his wife right in front of him deserves to be knocked on his butt immediately. Men would think twice about doing these things if there were consequences.

I'm sorry you had to go through that, they do this stuff to you and you never expect it because it shouldn't exist in church and you angry inside because of the deceit,
I understand, and I feel the same, as you can tell.

I like to call it as it is, if it's wrong it's wrong, I don't care who's saying (or doing) it or what building it's coming out of.

They're kidding themselves, God see's everything.

Merry Christmas Mary,
Joe