Substitute Father

[truth]

I don't know where I'm going with all of this --- I guess I just need to get some things out that have been going on lately and this is the right place to do it in!

First, I heard some disparaging remarks my former pastor made about me a week and a half ago and....at first I didn't have a huge reaction to it (or didn't want to) but pretty quickly I began to get angry, really, really angry about it - so I wrote several letters (with no intention to send) and then I noticed I started to feel physically lousy, sort of weary and heavied almost, like I was carrying around a ton of bricks on my shoulders, next I had a few too many wines at a holiday dinner we went to (I'm usually only a 1 - 1 1/2 glass drinker, if that) and continued to feel more and more physcially lousy until I hit yesterday and then my tears started (for no apparent reason) and by this morning, I went out and met a friend and finally felt a little better.....

It's pretty obvious that the pastor's remarks about me and apparent dislike for me, now that I've left, triggered me! Before I left the church, I confided in one person (I thought was my friend) about how I felt about him and his theology and .....I think now, she shared my remarks with him....he has reacted to that and is now, amongst other things, referring to me as a person with an anger problem!

It hurts, it really really hurts, again, like you, we gave and gave and gave and gave and now...now that's it's all said and done I will only be remembered for the last thing I did or said...all the time, the money the good works - forgotten -- six years of my life - down the tubes and all summed up by one remark - I have an anger problem....I keep telling myself it doesn't matter - it does! I keep saying I'm over it --- I'm not ---- I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm upset and once again I find myself questioning God, questioning man --- where is the justice in it all?

Also, what I hate to admit more than anything is how much I needed, or believed I needed and wanted this man's approval of me, I wanted it because, like so many, you see, my own father hurt me so severely. I didn't realize how much I was seeing him(the pastor) and wanted to see him as a substitute father, a substitute authority figure, one I could count on, one that wouldn't hurt me or abuse me like my real dad did....but I feel now my trust was misplaced and I made a mistake once again...once again I sought out a substitute abuser replacement for the real one I started out in life with.


I feel very, very sad today.

truth

[Theodora]

I don't know that we've had a chance to "interact" before, so I hope you don't mind my response, but, much of what you've said here "resonates" with my experience. The best I can tell you is that---as painful as it is---it is a HEALTHY sign that you can acknowledge your feelings and how hurt you are AND that you can peg some of this hurt to the past rejection by your father. (If interested, some of my musings about how we get "triggered" or experience another's anger because ANOTHER is "triggered" by us in some way was post was posted relatively recently on NACR at http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3102&highlight=parental+rejection)

In any case, FWIW, know that I empathize with you and that I'll be thinking about you in the days ahead and keeping you in prayer----if you don't mind!

Blessings to you and yours this day---

Theodora

--


I don't know where I'm going with all of this --- I guess I just need to get some things out that have been going on lately and this is the right place to do it in!

First, I heard some disparaging remarks my former pastor made about me a week and a half ago and....at first I didn't have a huge reaction to it (or didn't want to) but pretty quickly I began to get angry, really, really angry about it - so I wrote several letters (with no intention to send) and then I noticed I started to feel physically lousy, sort of weary and heavied almost, like I was carrying around a ton of bricks on my shoulders, next I had a few too many wines at a holiday dinner we went to (I'm usually only a 1 - 1 1/2 glass drinker, if that) and continued to feel more and more physcially lousy until I hit yesterday and then my tears started (for no apparent reason) and by this morning, I went out and met a friend and finally felt a little better.....

It's pretty obvious that the pastor's remarks about me and apparent dislike for me, now that I've left, triggered me! Before I left the church, I confided in one person (I thought was my friend) about how I felt about him and his theology and .....I think now, she shared my remarks with him....he has reacted to that and is now, amongst other things, referring to me as a person with an anger problem!

It hurts, it really really hurts, again, like you, we gave and gave and gave and gave and now...now that's it's all said and done I will only be remembered for the last thing I did or said...all the time, the money the good works - forgotten -- six years of my life - down the tubes and all summed up by one remark - I have an anger problem....I keep telling myself it doesn't matter - it does! I keep saying I'm over it --- I'm not ---- I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm upset and once again I find myself questioning God, questioning man --- where is the justice in it all?

Also, what I hate to admit more than anything is how much I needed, or believed I needed and wanted this man's approval of me, I wanted it because, like so many, you see, my own father hurt me so severely. I didn't realize how much I was seeing him(the pastor) and wanted to see him as a substitute father, a substitute authority figure, one I could count on, one that wouldn't hurt me or abuse me like my real dad did....but I feel now my trust was misplaced and I made a mistake once again...once again I sought out a substitute abuser replacement for the real one I started out in life with.


I feel very, very sad today.

truth

[Carmen]

Hi Truth,

I don't think you have an anger problem. It is a normal reaction to what happened to you, anybody would be angry. I don't think that I saw the pastor that SA'd me as a father figure, but I thought he was an authority figure. I have always sought approval of authority figures, whether they were my parents, teachers, older family members. I did what people I thought were in authority told me to do, because I thought they knew better. I always wanted to do things "right".

That is why the SA hurt so much, I was associating the "authority" of the pastor with godly authority - which is not a good thing to do. Reason did not help, though. Even after I realized that only the pastor had rejected me and not God, I still felt worse and worse. The only difference was that the pastor told me I was prideful instead of angry. I feared he would tell everyone around not to associate with me and that I would lose contact with every Christian I knew - not many. Professing born-agains are few and far between here and even then they don't all act like it. I didn't get out of the downward spiral until some Christian friends met with me, comforted me, and showed me that they still accepted me.

We accept you here and are here for you, (((Truth))). :)

[mary]

Oh, dear Truth... The Lord has you right now in the palm of His gracious hand! (Isaiah 49:16.) He is your precious Father!

I know exactly how you feel. The "pastor" who abused me was of the same height as my earthly father (5'3", thereabouts); his facial features resembled my father's at that age. He liked me, I thought; he cared about me, he told me. I've got a chance to start over, I thought! "Pastor" told me that my father was a wicked man who treated me horribly, but that he would always be there for me. There was nothing I could do or say, "pastor" said, that would make him turn away from me. And then other things started happening...

Truth, I pray for you this afternoon... We are to leave these scoundrel-pastors in the dirt in which we found them. The Lord loved us so much that eventually, He seized us, He snatched us up and took us away from them! Not only that, He promises us eternal life, something our earthly fathers could never give us. All that my earthly father was capable of doing was hurting me. He was a gate of hell (Matthew 16:18) and no similarly-constituted "pastor" is going to prevail against one of God's own little ones! It would be better for a millstone to be hung around his neck (Matthew 18:6) than that he offend us.

May your Father in heaven bless you and keep you today and always, Truth; may He make His face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; may He lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.

mary

[butterfly]

[[[[Truth]]]] I was abused by my father and step-father.
I always thought that a Pastor would love me and accept me as God does.
Well they don"t and the pain of there abuse hurts deeper than my fathers and my step-fathers. Pastors suppose to repesent God
I don"t trust God at times because I feel he sees me just like the Pastors do. I know Pastors are human but I expected more from them. butterfly

[mstar]

Hope, I feel your reactions are normal. Only a numb person would not feel anger if their minister, appointed be an extension of the Lord's loving heart to His children, betrays that trust. For him to do that by accusations of "anger issues" may indicate he has "projection issues" and his own anger.

Be comforted. Jesus is your Daddy now and His is able to care for you.

[Theodora]

....particularly this thought:

"For him to do that by accusations of 'anger issues' may indicate he has 'projection issues' and his own anger."

It's SO very difficult to try to sort through the real dynamics and "hidden agendas" in situations like these, but...I say again....I DO see it as a HEALTHY sign that you can acknowledge how hurt you are (UNDERSTANDABLE!!!) and can express that here.

Love and prayers--

Theodora

--




Hope, I feel your reactions are normal. Only a numb person would not feel anger if their minister, appointed be an extension of the Lord's loving heart to His children, betrays that trust. For him to do that by accusations of "anger issues" may indicate he has "projection issues" and his own anger.

Be comforted. Jesus is your Daddy now and His is able to care for you.

[truth]

Thank you everyone for your replies...



Theodora- I agree ..... it is healthy to finally be admitting the hurt...
Carmen - that's the hardest part, continuously telling yourself that man and not God is rejecting you!
Mary - My pastor had the same first name as my father, thank you for your words of comfort!
Butterfly - Me, too, I had a higher expectation level for pastors......WRONG!
mstar - Yes, he does have projection issues and his own anger - I need to keep remembering that...

Everything you all said rang true....I remember so often when I was still at the church I used to hear the stories of people like all of us.....when they were told from the pulpit, the people always sounded so petty and so overreactive. Like someone walked into the church and because the pastor didn't quite say hello in the right tone of voice they stormed out of the church and refused to attend! The people in the stories always sounded crazy but the funny thing is, now that I'm one of them, and listening to your stories and hurt, I have yet to hear anyone bordering on pettiness or overeaction! Sadly, the stories are far too serious and tell a disappointing tale of the emotional health and spiritual state of many of our leaders today!

[mstar]

I remember so often when I was still at the church I used to hear the stories of people like all of us.....when they were told from the pulpit, the people always sounded so petty and so overreactive. Like someone walked into the church and because the pastor didn't quite say hello in the right tone of voice they stormed out of the church and refused to attend! The people in the stories always sounded crazy but the funny thing is, now that I'm one of them, and listening to your stories and hurt, I have yet to hear anyone bordering on pettiness or overeaction! Sadly, the stories are far too serious and tell a disappointing tale of the emotional health and spiritual state of many of our leaders today!


What you have described above is my former pastor's reaction to "someone having a problem with his church." That is a portion of his sermons.

It is amazing to me, I guess it should not be, how Satanic patterns repeat over and over. Been reading these "cult" web sights concerning ministries that at one time, were considered fairly mainstream. Their stories read about the same as any "far out", very obvious pagan cult. What is really freaking me out, is these people are "praying people" believing they are dedicated to Christ. I don't know if it is the result of some of the shock wearing off from my various traumas, but the reality of this is freaking me out.

Jesus is your protector and He is faithful to defend you. Will lift you in prayer. Bless you.

[Jerry]

I have an anger problem....I keep telling myself it doesn't matter - it does! I keep saying I'm over it --- I'm not ---- I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm upset and once again I find myself questioning God, questioning man --- where is the justice in it all?

Dear Truth,,,
Tell God that,,,,,,,Truth,ya know what God likes ????,,,,,,,,,TRUTH ;) He is a BIG BOY,,,,,He can take it :D Questioning God ???? He doesn't mind,it proves you believe and trust He can do something about it,so He doesn't get His shorts in a knot about that ;) Questioning man ???Well you better be !!!! at every turn.Don't take this mans or any other mans word for it !! if it can't be found in,or supported by Gods word & COMMON SENCE ......Justice ???? We were never promised justice.I personally never want justice,,,,if I ever recieved Gods Justice,,,I'll be going in the "Pit" with the rest of them.No,,,I am satisified with His "Grace",,,thank you very much ;) Justice ???Be careful what you pray for :D
Love Jerry
P.S. I never even mention the word "Justice" to God,,,,,,,,don't want to even plant the seed.

[SpinningHead]

he has reacted to that and is now, amongst other things, referring to me as a person with an anger problem!

It hurts, it really really hurts, again, like you, we gave and gave and gave and gave and now...now that's it's all said and done I will only be remembered for the last thing I did or said...all the time, the money the good works - forgotten -- six years of my life - down the tubes and all summed up by one remark - I have an anger problem....I keep telling myself it doesn't matter - it does! I keep saying I'm over it --- I'm not ---- I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm upset and once again I find myself questioning God, questioning man --- where is the justice in it all?


Why is it when we have a legitimate reason for being angry...we have an "anger problem" and the "problem" is almost always identified by the offending party?? Hmmmm....??? :eek:

It doesn't sound like to me you have a problem with anger, you have a legitimate reason for being angry at his behavior. He's the one with the problem...and accountability problem! :mad: His remarks are intended to shift your friend's (and other's) focus away from his behavior and put them onto you...like you don't have a legitimate reason for being angry with him or how dare you actually be angry with him?? Of course he's going to play the "anger problem" card! He doesn't want anyone to hold him accountable for his behavior so he's going to slander you before his behavior calls attention to itself! Him playing the "anger card" just justifies & validates your anger with him! :eek:

If your friend was your friend and pastor said, "anger problem"...your friend should have stated, "Her reasons for being angry sound perfectly reasonable to me....I'm curious as to your response for your behavior?".

You need to deal with your anger in a healthy way, admit you have a right to it and take all the time you need to process it and put your situation in it's rightful perspective. Don't spend any useless time doing anything else but expressing yourself and working it through.

Chocolate helps!

[truth]

Been reading these "cult" web sights concerning ministries that at one time, were considered fairly mainstream. Their stories read about the same as any "far out", very obvious pagan cult. What is really freaking me out, is these people are "praying people" believing they are dedicated to Christ. I don't know if it is the result of some of the shock wearing off from my various traumas, but the reality of this is freaking me out.

Jesus is your protector and He is faithful to defend you. Will lift you in prayer. Bless you.

I feel the exact same way as you! It comes in "waves" like this morning I was talkiing to my husband about our former pastor and I just felt this "shock" this realization for a moment and I said, "He really is evil isn't he?" and my hubby said, what's new about that? but what I was realizing was, as you said, "the REALITY" of it all....it just sort of hits you.... and you can't believe it!

[truth]

His remarks are intended to shift your friend's (and other's) focus away from his behavior and put them onto you...like you don't have a legitimate reason for being angry with him or how dare you actually be angry with him?? Of course he's going to play the "anger problem" card! He doesn't want anyone to hold him accountable for his behavior so he's going to slander you before his behavior calls attention to itself! Him playing the "anger card" just justifies & validates your anger with him! :eek:

Chocolate helps!

What a good post SH, thank you......well-stated!
and yes, chocolate was definitely one of God's wonderful creations as I can testify to many Hershey Kisses later!!!

thanks again, I really like what you said.......
truth

[mstar]

I feel the exact same way as you! It comes in "waves" like this morning I was talkiing to my husband about our former pastor and I just felt this "shock" this realization for a moment and I said, "He really is evil isn't he?" and my hubby said, what's new about that? but what I was realizing was, as you said, "the REALITY" of it all....it just sort of hits you.... and you can't believe it!


Yes, it does come in waves. A mainline domination pastor. . .evil.

Where's that chocolote, SH. I would like some Christmas chocolate shaped bells. Dark Chocolate to suite my mood.

[jjc9497]

When I became a believer, I thought I had just found the perfect "family" to replace mine and that the pastor would be like a substitute father to replace the abusive one I had. Although I didn't actually expect the pastor to treat me like a daughter, I thought he would be there to counsel me, etc. like a dad. Boy was I wrong, and the pain is incredible---------as you all know. I'm back in therapy over this issue, so can't offer any help--just know you are not alone.

I like my chocolate with caramel in the middle!!!!!!!!!! YUM

[Willow]

Reeses here please :)

[SpinningHead]

Dark chocolate covered brandied marino cherries w/ a nice glass of red zin...thank you very much! I pull out all the stops! :p

JJC...I learned that lesson the hard way too. I learned in therapy I have to be in my own life what I didn't get that I needed...I hope that reads right.

[truth]

When I became a believer, I thought I had just found the perfect "family" to replace mine and that the pastor would be like a substitute father to replace the abusive one I had. Although I didn't actually expect the pastor to treat me like a daughter, I thought he would be there to counsel me, etc. like a dad. Boy was I wrong, and the pain is incredible---------as you all know. I'm back in therapy over this issue, so can't offer any help--just know you are not alone.

I like my chocolate with caramel in the middle!!!!!!!!!! YUM

thank you, I relate to everything you just said, I feel the same way and I am back in therapy too---

PEANUT BUTTER AND CHOCOLATE FOR ME WILLOW!!!!!

[Carmen]

Good advice, Spinning Head. :)

I like Häagen Dazs Belgian Chocolate or Bailey's flavor (when I can get it) with Baley's on top or just good ol' chocolate syrup. Lebkuchen and red wine are also a good combination.

[truth]

Dear Truth,,,
Justice ???? We were never promised justice.I personally never want justice,,,,if I ever recieved Gods Justice,,,I'll be going in the "Pit" with the rest of them.No,,,I am satisified with His "Grace",,,thank you very much ;) Justice ???Be careful what you pray for :D
Love Jerry
P.S. I never even mention the word "Justice" to God,,,,,,,,don't want to even plant the seed.

I am here to get honest with my feelings, right or wrong and I think that if every victim gets brutally honest they will admit that at one point or another in their healing process they entertained the thoughts of vengance at their abuser -- you can't help but feel that way - I think it's a natural feeling that comes with the territory!

Now do I want to hold on to it? no way? Do I want to let it go? absolutely but ---
with GOD's grace and timing....... we are all in different places, Jerry.

:) truth

[SpinningHead]

II think that if every victim gets brutally honest they will admit that at one point or another in their healing process they entertained the thoughts of vengance at their abuser -- you can't help but feel that way - I think it's a natural feeling that comes with the territory!


Are you kidding?? I've got worked out what I'm gonna wear and everything! New shoes...new nail color! I know what I'm having for breakfast that day...I know what I'm going to say and they're not going to say anything because my brilliance just silences their stupidity....Don't you know it! :D

[Hope 98]

Are you kidding?? I've got worked out what I'm gonna wear and everything! New shoes...new nail color! I know what I'm having for breakfast that day...I know what I'm going to say and they're not going to say anything because my brilliance just silences their stupidity....Don't you know it! :D

I gotta agree here. I think it's actually an important step in the recovery process, and long as it is a STEP, and the process continues.

Especially what you said here SH. The way you stated this, it seems like more of a reclaiming of strength and power.

I go back to my fantasy of "justice" from time to time, but it's just a visit. I KNOW that vengence belongs to God.

[truth]

Hope, SH....

agree.

[Jerry]

I am here to get honest with my feelings, right or wrong and I think that if every victim gets brutally honest they will admit that at one point or another in their healing process they entertained the thoughts of vengance at their abuser -- you can't help but feel that way - I think it's a natural feeling that comes with the territory!

Now do I want to hold on to it? no way? Do I want to let it go? absolutely but ---
with GOD's grace and timing....... we are all in different places, Jerry.

:) truth
Hahahaha ,,,,Truth,,,I never said I didn't think about "Revenge" ;) May an unclean Camel deficate in their Linen Closet :D
Love Jerry

[Hope 98]

Hahahaha ,,,,Truth,,,I never said I didn't think about "Revenge" ;) May an unclean Camel deficate in their Linen Closet :D
Love Jerry

Yeah - can't say Jerry doesn't have his fantasies - not even quiet about it.

:D :D :D

I really appreciate your sense of humor, Jerry. I forget most of the time that it took a while for me to know how to take you. :eek:

[truth]

Hahahaha ,,,,Truth,,,I never said I didn't think about "Revenge" ;) May an unclean Camel deficate in their Linen Closet :D
Love Jerry



I got yah, yup it was all just semantics......oooh I feel so much better now, Jerry I thought I had misinterpreted those creative torture chambers and punishments you so readily created for our tormentors......life can return back to normal now for me...thanks for the clarification!:D

[SpinningHead]

I go back to my fantasy of "justice" from time to time, but it's just a visit. I KNOW that vengence belongs to God.

In this scenario I get to look and and say nothing but be satisifed that my Big Daddy is coming to His princess' rescue and slaying all the evil knights.

Sometimes in reality I feel really really bad for them...that God will avenge (Romans 12) and I would NOT want to be in their shoes engaged in their actions. Don't mean to be all pharisee about it...I know I have my own shoes to wear...and I'm not comparing...I'm just saying...sometimes I look at the situation and YEESH! Wouldn't want to be them on that day that those actions get addressed. Just saying...

(And I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't want to be me either on some of those addressing days...I'm just saying...)

[mary]

May an unclean Camel deficate in their Linen Closet :D
Love Jerry

Jerry, I was talking to a friend of mine who believes - as I do, because I almost alone among the congregation, have seen "pastor" in his home, running around in a thin tee shirt and sweatpants - that "pastor" is on steroids. This man is bulked up like you can't believe. Steroids can be, well, constipating... Later, I was also talking to my therapist about him and the therapist said, "If ("pastor") were sitting in that chair next to you right now, what would you most like to do?" I replied, "Beat the living c*** out of him!" But then I thought, no, if he's really on steroids, that might be doing him a favor. And I sure wouldn't want to do that! ;)

Vengeance, sweet vengeance is the Lord's - and it will be far better even than the above scenario!

mary