we sort of ventured out to church yesterday.....

[jane]

The intent was to watch a live nativity at the local Lutheran church.

We got there a little early and was invited down the stairs....

again, the pastor came and spoke with us.

and the people were so very nice.

We watched the Nativity scene......

and decided to join them after to make ornaments and eat treats.

I bumped into a childhood friend who is now married and has a son. She goes to this church but used to be part of the group of fundamental people I was involved in when she was growing up. I asked if she ever visited a local church......and she looked upset and said, No.....

Another older couple who were leaders in the congregational church that I grew up in were members there,

and a neighbor.

Honestly, the people seem really really nice. They seem to have a "community" amongst themselves....and are pretty loving.

So WHY CAN"T I JUST GO VISIT THEIR CHURCH ON A SUNDAY?

I am passed the belief that because it isn't a fundamental church that they aren't christians....man we heard so many negative comments about every denominational church in town from our pulpit.

I know that after they told the "baby Jesus" story, the man narrating talked about accepting Jesus into your hearts.............and I cringed in pain. Something must've triggered me.

and then they handed the microphone to the pastor who BRIEFLY spoke and then prayed.........

and that triggered me.

WHile making ornaments, a woman started talking to us about what we went through at our last church.

My husband and I told her about "spiritual abuse" and for 99% of it, she really really listened. She made one suggestion about sometimes we as christians need to forgive........

and I freaked out.

But don't you worry, My husband piped up quickly, "Well, therein lies the problem. They've told us they've done nothing wrong on one hand and we have lack of forgiveness against them on the other hand... Kinda tricky figuring out what we should do, forgive something that never happened OR have unforgiveness in our hearts........."

It was only one little statement that she made that triggered me, she was honest to goodness sincerely listening to us.

GUESS I am not ready yet OR'

GUESS I DON"T want to go to church.


My husband and I talked about it afterwards. The problem is WE ARE AFRAID TO TRUST OURSELVES.

Its not them, or their church or anyone else's church, IT IS US>

We don't trust our ability to keep up boundaries, to take care of our own family needs etc....

we are afraid that we will fall into second guessing ourselves again, get over involved in someone else's ministry, give all of our money and time.........


Yes, so there it is, WE are the people that we dont TRUST the most.

how's that for insanity?

jane

[Carmen]

Awww, you're not insane. I think you are still very tender and that is ok. I doubt that they meant to trigger you. As far as I know, I have never heard of anyone spiritually abused in a Lutheran church.

Lutheran doctrine could be seen as quite neutral, at least it is in my experience. I am considering using one of their bible studies in Italian, if they exist in that language, when I start a study here.

On the first of Advent we went to a Christmas market hosted by the Lutherans in downtown. It was a cute little miniature of those they have in Germany, complete with wurst, sauerkraut and mulled wine (Glühwein), yum! They have German/Italian services, but we didn't go on Sunday to hear the service either. I would have liked to, but Hubby wanted to sleep in on Sunday, just my luck.

Just take your time and don't force yourself to go if it is still that difficult. You have to feel good about it, I think, if you are going to feel comfortable later on. I can give people the benefit of the doubt if they say something that bothers me, but I still watch them out of the corner of my eye.... The effort can be draining, though. I went to a Pentecostal service this Sunday - hated it from end to end. I am not trying to adjust to them, but exactly the opposite. Even the message was blatantly incorrect as far as doctrine, but at least I know what they are up to. It was about obedience to the pastor - as the apple of God's eye. Totally wrong. They are discussing a group that is to go around to people's houses for fellowship (I think the issue is control). I think they will start cell groups soon, but cannot be sure of it. This time my friends that go there saw the false doctrine right away, too, which means that they are progressing. I am trying to help them see that there is too much going on there that is just not kosher, and they are seeing it, slowly. That is not where I was SA'd - that is a different denomination - I couldn't go there at all.

Just hang on (((Jane))), and be patient with yourself.

[truth]

My husband and I talked about it afterwards. The problem is WE ARE AFRAID TO TRUST OURSELVES.

Its not them, or their church or anyone else's church, IT IS US>

We don't trust our ability to keep up boundaries, to take care of our own family needs etc....

we are afraid that we will fall into second guessing ourselves again, get over involved in someone else's ministry, give all of our money and time.........


Yes, so there it is, WE are the people that we dont TRUST the most.

how's that for insanity?

jane

I don't think it's insane, I think it's "par for the course" that's exactly the way I feel, too...

I still can remember so clearly how I went into my former church, determined to keep my boundaries and stay intact there and at some point I just decided to trust them, I let my boundaries completely down.....and whamo - six years later, knee-deep into it and I see what happened. I don't have any answers but right now I feel I would rather be on the side of a little bit too "self-protective" then so easily pulled in again.....I personally think it may be a good sign and sign of being stronger and healthier than before that we're not so willing this time to hand over our spiritual lives to the first taker who comes along.....older, wiser, smarter...

truth

[Meg Evenstar]

I don't think it's insane, I think it's "par for the course" that's exactly the way I feel, too...

I still can remember so clearly how I went into my former church, determined to keep my boundaries and stay intact there and at some point I just decided to trust them, I let my boundaries completely down.....and whamo - six years later, knee-deep into it and I see what happened. I don't have any answers but right now I feel I would rather be on the side of a little bit too "self-protective" then so easily pulled in again.....I personally think it may be a good sign and sign of being stronger and healthier than before that we're not so willing this time to hand over our spiritual lives to the first taker who comes along.....older, wiser, smarter...

truth

I agree with this too. I'm not nearly as trusting as I once was and I doubt I ever will be so again.

All of you are such wonderful help to me and each other. The Emperor really was naked, wasn't he? :p

[Willow]

Hey Jane... just realizing that it's not "them" and it's something internal you are dealing with helps a lot. You're not insane at all! We just have some stuff to walk through that church interferes with. I had lunch with a former pastor of mine and his wife recently. They asked what church I was attending and I was honest and told them that it takes a week for me to recover from one church service. He asked if it was conviction... my reply to that was no... it's more like an anxiety disorder that has attached itself to religion. He seemed to "get it" and suggested I try a more basic church. We'll see... I'm not much about church anymore.... being a biker babe and all... haha!

[Jerry]

Dear Jane,,,
You mention in your post ,,,fear for your finances if you get involved,lets vaccinate you right now...... :D Mark 7 vs 9-13 We'll see what Christ says about vows to the Temple ;) You will find in verse 11,the word "Corban" as rendered in English.............The Hebrew word is Tebach (Teh'-bakh) meaning butchery or something slaughtered....So by implication in context it means a "Vow of Sacrifice"to the Temple.....Christ points out to the Pharisees that they cause people to sin in order to keep their "Temple Vow"(verse 10-11),,,,,,Sweetie,,,YOUR FAMILY COMES FIRST,,,,,,,THEN THE CHURCH.....THAT is how God wants it.Don't ever let those idiots tell you different !!!
Love Jerry

[jane]

The Emperor really was naked, wasn't he?


yup. and the more we said so, the more they told other's that wewere naked!


funny you mention that because that is the EXACT feeling that I had when I woke up one day with eyes that could see so much.....

and I said to my husband, "the emperor has no clothes on, why didn't we see?"

jane

[Meg Evenstar]

yup. and the more we said so, the more they told other's that wewere naked!


funny you mention that because that is the EXACT feeling that I had when I woke up one day with eyes that could see so much.....

and I said to my husband, "the emperor has no clothes on, why didn't we see?"

jane

I got a good laugh from your comment because that was the very thing I said when we realized that it wasn't gold glittering. :p but rather fool's gold :eek:

Meg

[mstar]

Dear Jane,,,
You mention in your post ,,,fear for your finances if you get involved,lets vaccinate you right now...... :D Mark 7 vs 9-13 We'll see what Christ says about vows to the Temple ;) You will find in verse 11,the word "Corban" as rendered in English.............The Hebrew word is Tebach (Teh'-bakh) meaning butchery or something slaughtered....So by implication in context it means a "Vow of Sacrifice"to the Temple.....Christ points out to the Pharisees that they cause people to sin in order to keep their "Temple Vow"(verse 10-11),,,,,,Sweetie,,,YOUR FAMILY COMES FIRST,,,,,,,THEN THE CHURCH.....THAT is how God wants it.Don't ever let those idiots tell you different !!!
Love Jerry

This is good insight Jerry. I feel like making copies to send out with Christmas cards this year.

[ex-shep]

I had some good thoughts on the topic which promptly dissapeared to cyberspace [CENSORED!!]

Four years out of my cult experience, I actually was a member of a Methodist church which I could reccomend to anyone on the forum in a heartbeat. The cult tapes were still running interference. One mantra, hardly a cure all, did take an edge off the mind control. "I am not my cult experience. That was then this is now. I am in a safe place." I still had to work through some more anger, so I did leave the church.

I did return for a brief stint in the Nineties. The only other church involvement was in Quaker meeting in the same city.

A co-worker's mother made a curiously prophetic comment several years ago when she said the right church would come at the right time. In short, don't sweat it. Curiously enough I did find a church home.

I would say Congratulations for making the effort. I would also take a cue from Argentinians. They are slow and methodical in trying things out. If works, <<¡Felicitaciones!>>, if not <<mañana>>.