The problem with Paul

[Jerry]

I like a "Thread" like this to run once in a while to at least in some small way,counter the missteachings of these unstudied "Fundy" idiots that lead so many churches today,,,,teachings on marriage and divorce....When Pauls writings are considered outside of their historical perspective and the literal English meanings are only applied the resulting doctrine is lunacy.Paul wrote at a time in history when women were considered as "Chattel Property",,,,,and was writing in an advisory sence to keep womens lives out of danger,not because he agreed with the status-quo.Women that behaved outside of the paramaters of his instruction could be "Stoned" to death.Not that that would take place in every instance,but it was a possibility............Considering that turn to Mark 10,,,,and please !!!! forget what you have been taught to believe,,,,READ WHAT IT SAYS !!! ok the Pharisees that obviously consider women as chattel say that according to Moses(The Law) say they can write a bill of divorce to "Dismiss her",,,,THATS NOT WHAT MOSES WROTE !!!!! go read Deuteronomy 24 vs. 1-4 there are some conditions beyond their feeble answer.....Do you know why the first husband reffered to by Moses could not take her back ?????,,,,Because it was the custom of the time in pagon cultures around them to use women as payment for goods and services !!!!!! now read verse 7 Are you sweet ladys of this board starting to "GET IT !!!" Now back to Mark 10,,,,,So what does Christ reply ???? In verses 5-6 He replys "Because of the hardness of YOUR hearts,,,,,WHOS HEARTS ???? their hearts!!!!!He is talking here to a group of abusive men!!!!Then Christ quotes Genisis 23-24,,,,,We find here a literary from called a "Polysyndeton" employing the word and.It is used to call attention to Who is talking without changing the subject which is creation....Verse 23 begins "And ADAM said" WHO SAID ???? yes this is not Gods Word,,,,,,,,,,,,,IT IS ADAMS WEDDING VOW !!!! Are the lights coming on yet ladys?????:D And God conspicuosly does not respond.In Hebrew literary form and structure Gods silance is agreement ;) Christ points out that "From the beginning God made them male & female,,,,,NOT AS CHATTEL PROPERTY !!!!!!...............Now,back to Mark,,,,fun eh ??? :D notice in verse 10 WHO is Christ talking to here ?????? These are men who are his followers no longer abusive to their wives (if they ever were) these men cherish and value their wives,,,,it is only then that His answer becomes more restrictive ;) Ladys NOWHERE in Gods Word are you compelled to remain married to a man who doesn't love and cherish your spirit and your being,because if he doesn't do these things he has abandoned his vow and broken a sacred trust,and has become an enemy to his own substance,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU ;)
This is "Proper Teaching" weather the "Fundys" like it or not,,,,,,so tell them to ,,,,,,,as Kerry's wife told the reporter,,,,,Stick It !!!! :D
Love you guys,,,,,Jerry

[Hope 98]

Thank you Jerry!

I had pieces of this put together, but I think your explanation completes the picture. Well done!

[Sheep]

[QUOTE=Jerry]Then Christ quotes Genisis 23-24,,,,,We find here a literary from called a "Polysyndeton" employing the word and.It is used to call attention to Who is talking without changing the subject which is creation....Verse 23 begins "And ADAM said" WHO SAID ???? yes this is not Gods Word,,,,,,,,,,,,,IT IS ADAMS WEDDING VOW !!!! Are the lights coming on yet ladys?????:D And God conspicuosly does not respond.In Hebrew literary form and structure Gods silance is agreement ;) Christ points out that "From the beginning God made them male & female,,,,,NOT AS CHATTEL PROPERTY !!!!!!...............Now,back to Mark,,,,fun eh ??? :D notice in verse 10 WHO is Christ talking to here ?????? These are men who are his followers no longer abusive to their wives (if they ever were) these men cherish and value their wives,,,,it is only then that His answer becomes more restrictive ;) Ladys NOWHERE in Gods Word are you compelled to remain married to a man who doesn't love and cherish your spirit and your being,because if he doesn't do these things he has abandoned his vow and broken a sacred trust,and has become an enemy to his own substance,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU ;)

Thank you for this teaching, Jerry. Some bits and pieces that definately DO NOT fit with other erroneus teaching I have heard! The latter part of this ie. Ladys NOWHERE in God's Word are you compelled to remain married to a man who doesn't love and cherish your spirit and your being...he has abandoned his vow... triggered a grief respose in me - I'll need to explore that.

Sheep :(

[Satscout]

*wry grin*

I'm coming back to this later when I'm not getting ready to work... and sit down and read the full passages, in order... so I can nod in agreement more heartily...

thanks (((Jerry)))

[Pinkie Pie]

I love this mini-study. I am going to have to go back through it and really "dig in". This is awesome revelation.

[Jerry]

Ladys NOWHERE in God's Word are you compelled to remain married to a man who doesn't love and cherish your spirit and your being...he has abandoned his vow... triggered a grief respose in me - I'll need to explore that.

Sheep :(
Yes Grief for what what you should posess,,,,,at least a man who deems you as valueable,,,,,a man who says ,,,,,"My wife is a pearl of great price",,,,,,,,,,,,Sheep ,,,,,,,,,you desesve nothing less ;)
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

You see Ladys,,,,
I can't really explain it,,,,,,,my minds eye sees what is real,,,,,,,,,,,,I see your spirit bodys,,,,,,,,,,I see the marks of the lash,,,,,,,,,and I can't make it right......
Jerry

[Kerrin]

You see Ladys,,,,
I can't really explain it,,,,,,,my minds eye sees what is real,,,,,,,,,,,,I see your spirit bodys,,,,,,,,,,I see the marks of the lash,,,,,,,,,and I can't make it right......
Jerry

Thank you so much Jerry. (*lots of little tear drops*)
For making me 'feel' worthful , instead of worthless! (For all the men who have abused me, and even though I don't want Brian in my life ,it still HURT when he text me in Church on Sunday requesting a divorce; of course he can have it, .It's just a a small part of me wanted him to say he loved me , even a little.........:( :confused: Maybe one day I can hope for someone to love me again, and maybe as Christ intended........I'm not too hopeful though.:o
Bless you Jerry , you are a wonderful gentleman.
Kerrin
( I will never be able to explain why I continue to greive for Randy , despite his horrendous abuse; because he was the love of my life?, despite, ALL that abuse?, and the pain he inflicted......and, when given the ultimatum; he kept walking, he chose drugs, and a lifestyle only Thailand can offer, and "that" hurts after 14 years and a beautiful daughter......... (who also "lost" her dad when she turned 8, and he said "see you in two weeks", and never came back.)

[Janice]

(((((((((((jerry)))))))))))

I know your heart is in the right place but Bible Studies are a major "trigger" for me so I'll stay out of this one. :eek:

[Reg]

Thanks Jerry for stepping out in this delicate area. I have something on file regarding this.

Equality in Personhood and Importance

Just as the members of the Trinity are equal in their importance and in their full existence as distinct persons so men and women have been created by God to be equal in their importance and personhood. When God created man, he created both "male and female" in his image (Gen. 1:27; 5:1-2). Men and women are made equally in God's image and both men and women reflect God's character in their lives. This means that we should see aspects of God's character reflected in each other's lives. If we lived in a society consisting of only Christian men or a society consisting of only Christian women, we would not gain as full a picture of the character of God as when we see both godly men and godly women in their complementary differences together reflecting the beauty of God's character.

But if we are equally in God's image, then certainly men and women are equally important to God and equally valuable to him. We have equal worth before him for all eternity. The fact that both men and women are said by Scripture to be "in the image of God" should exclude all feelings of pride or inferiority and any idea that one sex is "better" or "worse" than the other. In particular, in contrast to many non-Christian cultures and religions, no one should feel proud or superior because he is a man, and no one should feel disappointed or inferior because she is a woman. [3] If God thinks us to be equal in value, then that settles the question, for God's evaluation is the true standard of personal value for all eternity.

When in 1 Corinthians 11:7 Paul says, "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man," he is not denying that woman was created in the image of God. He is simply saying that there are abiding differences between men and women that should be reflected in the way they dress and act in the assembled congregation. One of those differences is that man in relationship to woman has a particular role of representing God or showing what he is like, and woman in that relationship shows the excellence of the man from whom she was created. Yet in both cases Paul goes on to emphasize their interdependence (see vv. 11-12).

Our equality as persons before God, reflecting the equality of persons in the Trinity, should lead naturally to men and women giving honor to one another. Proverbs 31 is a beautiful picture of the honor given to a godly woman:

A good wife who can find?
She is far more precious than jewels....
Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
"Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all."
Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
(Prov. 31:10, 28-30)

Similarly, Peter tells husbands that they are to "bestow honor" on their wives (1 Peter 3:7), and Paul emphasizes, "In the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman" (1 Cor. 11:11, 12). Both men and women are equally important; both depend upon each other; both are worthy of honor.

The equality in personhood with which men and women were created is emphasized in a new way in the new covenant church. At Pentecost we see the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy in which God promises:

"I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
... and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days
I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy."
(Acts 2:17-18; quoting Joel 2:28-29)

The Holy Spirit is poured out in new power on the church, and men and women both are given gifts to minister in remarkable ways. Spiritual gifts are distributed to all men and women, beginning at Pentecost and continuing throughout the history of the church. Paul regards every Christian as a valuable member of the body of Christ, for "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (1 Cor. 12:7). After mentioning several gifts he says, "All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills," (1 Cor.12:11). Peter also, in writing to many churches throughout Asia Minor, says, "As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace" (1 Peter 4:10). These texts do not teach that all believers have the same gifts, but they do mean that both men and women will have valuable gifts for the ministry of the church, and that we should expect that these gifts will be widely and freely distributed to both men and women.

It seems, therefore, pointless to ask, "Who can pray more effectively, men or women?" or, "Who can sing praise to God better, men or women?" or, "Who will have more spiritual sensitivity and depth of relationship with God?" To all of these questions, we simply cannot give an answer. Men and women are equal in their ability to receive the new covenant empowerment of the Holy Spirit. There have been both great men and great women of God throughout the history of the church. Both men and women have been mighty warriors in prayer, prevailing over earthly powers and kingdoms and spiritual strongholds in the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ. [4]

Equality before God is further emphasized in the new covenant church in the ceremony of baptism. At Pentecost, both men and women who believed were baptized: "those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls" (Acts 2:41). This is significant because in the old covenant, the sign of membership of God's people was circumcision, which was given only to men. The new sign of membership of God's people, the sign of baptism, given to both men and women, is further evidence that both should be seen as fully and equally members of the people of God.

Equality in status among God's people is also emphasized by Paul in Galatians: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:27-28). Paul is here underlining the fact that no class of people, such as the Jewish people who had come from Abraham by physical descent, or the freedmen who had greater economic and legal power, could claim special status or privilege in the church. Slaves should not think themselves inferior to free men or women, nor should the free think themselves superior to slaves. Jews should not think themselves superior to Greeks, nor should Greeks think themselves inferior to Jews. Similarly, Paul wants to insure that men will not adopt some of the attitudes of the surrounding culture, or even some of the attitudes of first-century Judaism, and think that they have greater importance than women or are of superior value before God. Nor should women think themselves inferior or less important in the church. Both men and women, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free, are equal in importance and value to God and equal in membership in Christ's body, the church, for all eternity.

In practical terms, we must never think that there are any second-class citizens in the church. Whether someone is a man or woman, employer or employee, Jew or Gentile, black or white, rich or poor, healthy or ill, strong or weak, attractive or unattractive, extremely intelligent or slow to learn, all are equally valuable to God and should be equally valuable to one another as well. This equality is an amazing and wonderful element of the Christian faith and sets Christianity apart from almost all religions and societies and cultures. The true dignity of godly manhood and womanhood can be fully realized only in obedience to God's redeeming wisdom as found in Scripture.

[Janice]

In practical terms, we must never think that there are any second-class citizens in the church. Whether someone is a man or woman, employer or employee, Jew or Gentile, black or white, rich or poor, healthy or ill, strong or weak, attractive or unattractive, extremely intelligent or slow to learn,
SMOKERS OR NON- SMOKERS!
all are equally valuable to God and should be equally valuable to one another as well. This equality is an amazing and wonderful element of the Christian faith and sets Christianity apart from almost all religions and societies and cultures. The true dignity of godly manhood and womanhood can be fully realized only in obedience to God's redeeming wisdom as found in Scripture.[/QUOTE]