Vindication

[truth]

Hi - Sadly, as we know here, there are no lack of stories describing mistreatment and abuse at the hands of our churches, church people and spiritual leaders.....but what I am wondering, tonite, is.....do you have any stories of vindication -for yourself or anyone you know?

I thought I might offer two stories I know....

First, a close friend of mine was physically, sexually and verbally abused from the ages of 6-12 years of age by her pastor step-father.....finally, at age 12 my friend's mother decided to divorce this man and press charges -- he quickly escaped and for the next 20-years was never heard from!

Two years ago, out of "nowhere" my friends' aunt read an obscure publication with an article written by this man, the article included his address. The aunt quickly notified my friend and after much discussion with her mother and brother, much prayer, they decided to finally press charges....believing that the information came their way for a reason....to make a long story short -- the legal process proceeded quickly and swiftly and the man was incarcerated and sent to prison....files that had been closed for years, would suddenly appear on the investigating detective's desk, my friend was able to remember details of the abusive years, details that could be confirmed by charges that had been filed at the time of the crimes.....the interesting thing about the whole situation to me was all of this was happening simultaneously as we were seeing the glut of abuse cases committed by the Catholic priests coming out.....(coincidence????)

The last story was closer to "home". I had a caregiver for my daugher who was a 50ish woman who grew up with a father who was a pastor in an extremely rigid and legalistic denomination. At that time, I was just beginning my own recovery journey from childhood sexual abuse, which I openly shared with her.
Again, to make a long story short....she came to our house one day and shared a wonderful story with me.....I think as I was talking about my own abuse and my perceptions of it --- it must have affected her and caused her to look at her own life and upbringing.....she was now the sole caregiver for her aging parents and you could tell from the way that she talked, thinly disguising her anger and resentment, especially towards her father.

Well, furious and anger and now unable to contain this anger, she finally sat down one morning with her father and told him how angry she was at the abuse she had suffered at his hands....she told him, among other things, how she had to wear long dresses and skirts to school as a child to hide the welts and bruises on her legs.....

well, as she spoke, this elderly man completely broke down and cried....he had never thought of his "discipline" as abuse or known the effect that this would have on her, he, once again believed like so many of his "era", that he was administering Godly displine (spare the rod, spoil the child). From what she said, he was truly repentant, begged her forgiveness and from that point they actually began a new relationship! It was a truly beautiful story to witness, from my vantage point.......

So, all of this to ask you --- do you or anyone you know have any stories to share of vindication?

[Jerry]

I have experienced "Vindication" maybe oh say 1/2 a dozen times in my life.The times that were unforced and unexpected tasted sweet.The times that were planned and executed by myself,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,tasted sweet too,,,,,,,,,but also had a sort of bitter aftertaste,like revenge :o
Love Jerry

[mary]

My "vindication" may soon be coming to pass...

I have a friend who's a Christian attorney, a man who's taught men's Bible study classes for over 20 years. He has agreed to send "pastor" a "slander warning letter" for me on his letterhead. He told me to draft it (I'm a legal writer and besides being employed as one, I've written briefs and pleadings on a free-lance basis for attorneys who are sole practitioners); he will approve it and send it to "pastor" this week via certified mail, with copies to the elders at their homes. It's pretty much of a "boiler-plate" slander warning ("Be advised that if you or any others of your congregation have made or caused to be made any defamatory remarks that have impugned the character, conduct, conversation or deportment of the **** (us), you are hereby urged to retract such statements without delay... If you fail to do so, I have advised Mr. and Mrs. **** that they have available to them other remedies for any harm that may have inured to their reputations... as a result of your statements or those of anyone else...") It includes the standard "You are further advised to refrain from any contact whatsoever with Mr. and Mrs. ****, or with their son, except through the undersigned." "Pastor" is probably going to go ballistic at that last statement, but at this point, I don't care.

Truth, I know that the ultimate and perfect vindication for all of us will come from the Lord... Sometimes, we have to take steps, though, to prevent false shepherds from continuing their devastation and hurting others. Your stories are most encouraging and I thank you for posting them :) !

mary

[Jerry]

Dear Mary,,,
What a "Great" letter :D Your "Pastor" will now have enough "Rope" to hang himself. Did he attend the "Judas Iscariot School of Divinity Studies" :D ?????
Love Jerry

[mary]

Jerry,

I love that!!! :D "The Judas Iscariot School of Divinity..." That's great! You have a wonderful mind, especially for take-offs on rotten pastors!

I can tell you another choice tidbit about this "pastor." In my friend's "throwdown" with him a week ago Sunday, she said to him, "You don't preach that much about Jesus Christ anymore. I don't hear Him mentioned much at all in your sermons." "Pastor" replied, "Well, Paul didn't talk always talk all that much about Christ." Say what???? That's absolutely nuts. You, Jerry, may very well be right: the Judas Iscariot School...

I will let you know the upshot of this, if there is any. "Pastor," after all, is the same guy who told me a few months ago, "I outweigh you by over 60 pounds and I could take you down." In March, he challenged me to "a wrestling match, just you and me - how about it?" I'm a bit afraid of him because I do think he's extremely unbalanced. My greatest satisfaction in the "slander warning letter," by far, will come from putting the elders on notice about him. After that, I think, I can walk away knowing that I did everything I could and everything that justice and love for the people who are left there at that "church" require.

Meanwhile, I look forward always to reading your "pearls of humor!"

mary

[truth]

I have experienced "Vindication" maybe oh say 1/2 a dozen times in my life.The times that were unforced and unexpected tasted sweet.The times that were planned and executed by myself,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,tasted sweet too,,,,,,,,,but also had a sort of bitter aftertaste,like revenge :o
Love Jerry


My experience exactly......

[truth]

My "vindication" may soon be coming to pass...

I have a friend who's a Christian attorney, a man who's taught men's Bible study classes for over 20 years. He has agreed to send "pastor" a "slander warning letter" for me on his letterhead. He told me to draft it (I'm a legal writer and besides being employed as one, I've written briefs and pleadings on a free-lance basis for attorneys who are sole practitioners); he will approve it and send it to "pastor" this week via certified mail, with copies to the elders at their homes. It's pretty much of a "boiler-plate" slander warning ("Be advised that if you or any others of your congregation have made or caused to be made any defamatory remarks that have impugned the character, conduct, conversation or deportment of the **** (us), you are hereby urged to retract such statements without delay... If you fail to do so, I have advised Mr. and Mrs. **** that they have available to them other remedies for any harm that may have inured to their reputations... as a result of your statements or those of anyone else...") It includes the standard "You are further advised to refrain from any contact whatsoever with Mr. and Mrs. ****, or with their son, except through the undersigned." "Pastor" is probably going to go ballistic at that last statement, but at this point, I don't care.


You Go Girl!....please keep us informed of what happens....it takes so much courage and "guts" to stand up to this, we will cheer your vindication!

truth

[Jerry]

I will let you know the upshot of this, if there is any. "Pastor," after all, is the same guy who told me a few months ago, "I outweigh you by over 60 pounds and I could take you down." In March, he challenged me to "a wrestling match, just you and me - how about it?"
Dear Mary
If he renews the challange,,,,,,,,,,,accept,,,,,,,,,,,Then when you square off,,,,,,,,,,,,KICK HIM IN THE NADS !!!!! :D Then tell him to stick his head up his ass and fight for air :D ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Your too sweet to do that but it's fun to fantisize ;)
Coach Jerry :D

[Janice]

Originally Posted by mary
My "vindication" may soon be coming to pass...

I have a friend who's a Christian attorney, a man who's taught men's Bible study classes for over 20 years. He has agreed to send "pastor" a "slander warning letter" for me on his letterhead. He told me to draft it (I'm a legal writer and besides being employed as one, I've written briefs and pleadings on a free-lance basis for attorneys who are sole practitioners); he will approve it and send it to "pastor" this week via certified mail, with copies to the elders at their homes. It's pretty much of a "boiler-plate" slander warning ("Be advised that if you or any others of your congregation have made or caused to be made any defamatory remarks that have impugned the character, conduct, conversation or deportment of the **** (us), you are hereby urged to retract such statements without delay... If you fail to do so, I have advised Mr. and Mrs. **** that they have available to them other remedies for any harm that may have inured to their reputations... as a result of your statements or those of anyone else...") It includes the standard "You are further advised to refrain from any contact whatsoever with Mr. and Mrs. ****, or with their son, except through the undersigned." "Pastor" is probably going to go ballistic at that last statement, but at this point, I don't care.


I can't wait to hear the outcome! Please keep us posted.

[mary]

Thank you all so much for your encouragement! I deeply appreciate each and every one of you!

I talked with my attorney yesterday... He approved my letter but thought it was a little too "gentle" ;) and needed some "punching up!" We're going to make the changes today; he's going to sign it, we'll copy it and the letters will go in the mail this afternoon. It's possible that "pastor" and the elders could have them by Saturday, which will make Sunday morning at that church a whole lot of fun! I just wish I could be a fly on the wall to see it! :D Unfortunately - but fortunately for her - my friend will also be gone, so she won't be able to report on it for me.

I will post the bulk of the letter here when it's finalized, at least those parts that are non-identifying, so that y'all can see what this Brit-born Nazi-lech with "Reverend" in front of his name is going to get as his "introductory course in American jurisprudence." :p (Not casting aspersions on people in general who are from the U.K., you understand - just this particular one!)

This guy messed with the wrong person when he messed with me.

Love to all,

mary

[mary]

Maybe no vindication after all

(See my prior posts, if interested...) My slander warning letter went in the mail yesterday - to "pastor" only. My attorney told me that he could not countenance copies being sent to the elders because it might result in a libel suit against him - for publishing information that results in the loss of someone's livelihood, which in this case, is a tort (civil wrong). However, this is the case only if the information is false, which would not be the case here. He also advised me not to send anything to the elders, either, or I would be in the same position, that of possibly having to defend myself from a non-meritorious libel suit.

I came home from the attorney's office, having mailed the letter from a P.O. in the northern suburbs here, and told my husband that the letters to the elders were a "no-go." He said, "Well, then, forget it. This has all been for nothing. ("Pastor") will see our names on the top of it and just trash the letter without reading it. Congratulations." I can't tell you how encouraging this was to me :(

Meanwhile, my friend who's also left - but wasn't harassed by "pastor" as I was - had sent him a strongly-worded letter as to why she was leaving ("you're not preaching Jesus Christ..."). She received a cordial, rather nice e-mail back from him in which he talked about "the amazing peace that God has given me as a pastor, a husband and father..." Good. :mad:

Anyway, here's the text of the letter that "pastor" will likely be receiving in the mail today or tomorrow but, according to my husband, will probably not read:

"Mr. and Mrs. **** have contacted me with regard to writing you in the wake of their recent separation from the *** Church.

"The **** are reasonably concerned that because neither you, nor your elders, nor all but two of their former fellow congregants contacted them in the several weeks that have elapsed since your October 18, 2005 expulsion of, specifically, Mrs. **** from the *** congregation, certain statements may have been made by you to others in the congregation that would serve to cast either of them or their son, ***, into an unfavorable light. As you must be aware, and as I understand it, you did not employ Biblically-based principles in the process of your summary excommunication of Mrs. **** from the congregation (cf. Matthew 18:15-17; Luke 17:3-4; Galatians 6:1). If she committed any offense against you, and if she were unrepentant, then the procedures provided for such offenders in those and other passages should have been followed. From information given to me by (Mary), it appears that her "offense" was, at worst, a mild, personal comment that was made weeks after a meeting you had with her and (her husband) on August 5, 2005. No "serious offense" was, in fact, at issue and (Mary) did ask for your forgiveness and attempt reconciliation with you in the aftermath of any offense you may have perceived, via both phone and e-mail communications. However, she tells me, she was explicitly and finally refused such forgiveness and reconciliation. She was, instead, constructively expelled from the congregation without further ado - and without the church's elders being apprised of the nature of the situation that led to your solo undertaking to terminate the ****s' membership in the church as of October 18.

"Please be advised that if you or any others of your congregation have made or caused to be made any defamatory statements that have impugned the character, conduct, conversation or deportment of any of the ****, you are hereby urged to retract such statements without delay. Michigan state law, in both its enacted and common law forms, provides that defamation in the form of slander and/or libel is a civil wrong. If you fail to retract any false statements you may have made, depending upon their nature, I have advised Mr. and Mrs. **** that they have available to them other remedies for any harm that may have inured to their reputations in the community as a result of your statements or those of anyone else.

"You are further advised to refrain from any contact whatsoever with either (husband or me, or our son), except through the undersigned.

"I would hope that you would consider the above information and recommendations in the serious light in which they are intended and conduct yourself accordingly."

The particular slanderous remarks that I have a "heads-up" that pastor - and his wife - may be spreading about me are awful. By the last sentence in the second paragraph, I just wanted to put "pastor" on notice that I may eventually be talking to the elders about the things he's done to me... But if he never reads it, this has been a total waste of time and energy.

To me, it's just incredible that he gets to stay in that pulpit, having assaulted, harassed, insulted and violated me in so many ways. I'm just very depressed now. There appears to be no earthly redress for us regarding this "pig in the pulpit," as my husband calls him.

All I can do now is continue to pray for the Lord's care and for His disposition of "pastor" according to His will and timing. I know we must always also pray for His mercy on someone like this, and I do - but it's tough.

Thank you all for reading this and for your encouragement. I'll let you know if there are any upshots...

mary

[Theodora]

Your husband has NO way of knowing whether your letter will be read or not. IF not, then you have STILL done what YOU could do...AND if there is any further trouble, you have things in writing. If the pastor doesn't read it and pay heed...that's HIS problem.

Don't be discouraged. Don't allow your husband to make you question what you've done. (From my point of view, that just tells me that HE'S uncomfortable/worried about what may happen and wants to put you on the defensive.)

Blessings to you and yours this day....and oh yes...DO "remember to breathe!!!"

Theodora

P.S. You may not know that little reference to "remember to breathe." It seems it's been some while since I shared this little story on NACR. In brief--the phrase came from a TV show I saw quite a few years ago now which was called "stuntmasters." In the episode I am remembering, a stunt cowboy had gone underneath a stagecoach and out the back while the horses were pulling it at full gallop. INCREDIBLE stunt! NEVER duplicated! When asked HOW he did this, he, being a rather "laid-back" type drawled out...."Wwaaaaaallllll...Ya hafta remember to BREATHE!!!" ;) :D

In thinking about it, I realized that there was MUCH wisdom in that. I think we all tend to "hold our breath"---or breathe VERY shallowly---when under stress---which in turn, makes everything much MORE stressful. Sooooo....."BREATHE...!!!" and hold to your faith in God and in what you are doing as best you can!!!




Maybe no vindication after all

(See my prior posts, if interested...) My slander warning letter went in the mail yesterday - to "pastor" only. My attorney told me that he could not countenance copies being sent to the elders because it might result in a libel suit against him - for publishing information that results in the loss of someone's livelihood, which in this case, is a tort (civil wrong). However, this is the case only if the information is false, which would not be the case here. He also advised me not to send anything to the elders, either, or I would be in the same position, that of possibly having to defend myself from a non-meritorious libel suit.

I came home from the attorney's office, having mailed the letter from a P.O. in the northern suburbs here, and told my husband that the letters to the elders were a "no-go." He said, "Well, then, forget it. This has all been for nothing. ("Pastor") will see our names on the top of it and just trash the letter without reading it. Congratulations." I can't tell you how encouraging this was to me :(

Meanwhile, my friend who's also left - but wasn't harassed by "pastor" as I was - had sent him a strongly-worded letter as to why she was leaving ("you're not preaching Jesus Christ..."). She received a cordial, rather nice e-mail back from him in which he talked about "the amazing peace that God has given me as a pastor, a husband and father..." Good. :mad:

Anyway, here's the text of the letter that "pastor" will likely be receiving in the mail today or tomorrow but, according to my husband, will probably not read:

"Mr. and Mrs. **** have contacted me with regard to writing you in the wake of their recent separation from the *** Church.

"The **** are reasonably concerned that because neither you, nor your elders, nor all but two of their former fellow congregants contacted them in the several weeks that have elapsed since your October 18, 2005 expulsion of, specifically, Mrs. **** from the *** congregation, certain statements may have been made by you to others in the congregation that would serve to cast either of them or their son, ***, into an unfavorable light. As you must be aware, and as I understand it, you did not employ Biblically-based principles in the process of your summary excommunication of Mrs. **** from the congregation (cf. Matthew 18:15-17; Luke 17:3-4; Galatians 6:1). If she committed any offense against you, and if she were unrepentant, then the procedures provided for such offenders in those and other passages should have been followed. From information given to me by (Mary), it appears that her "offense" was, at worst, a mild, personal comment that was made weeks after a meeting you had with her and (her husband) on August 5, 2005. No "serious offense" was, in fact, at issue and (Mary) did ask for your forgiveness and attempt reconciliation with you in the aftermath of any offense you may have perceived, via both phone and e-mail communications. However, she tells me, she was explicitly and finally refused such forgiveness and reconciliation. She was, instead, constructively expelled from the congregation without further ado - and without the church's elders being apprised of the nature of the situation that led to your solo undertaking to terminate the ****s' membership in the church as of October 18.

"Please be advised that if you or any others of your congregation have made or caused to be made any defamatory statements that have impugned the character, conduct, conversation or deportment of any of the ****, you are hereby urged to retract such statements without delay. Michigan state law, in both its enacted and common law forms, provides that defamation in the form of slander and/or libel is a civil wrong. If you fail to retract any false statements you may have made, depending upon their nature, I have advised Mr. and Mrs. **** that they have available to them other remedies for any harm that may have inured to their reputations in the community as a result of your statements or those of anyone else.

"You are further advised to refrain from any contact whatsoever with either (husband or me, or our son), except through the undersigned.

"I would hope that you would consider the above information and recommendations in the serious light in which they are intended and conduct yourself accordingly."

The particular slanderous remarks that I have a "heads-up" that pastor - and his wife - may be spreading about me are awful. By the last sentence in the second paragraph, I just wanted to put "pastor" on notice that I may eventually be talking to the elders about the things he's done to me... But if he never reads it, this has been a total waste of time and energy.

To me, it's just incredible that he gets to stay in that pulpit, having assaulted, harassed, insulted and violated me in so many ways. I'm just very depressed now. There appears to be no earthly redress for us regarding this "pig in the pulpit," as my husband calls him.

All I can do now is continue to pray for the Lord's care and for His disposition of "pastor" according to His will and timing. I know we must always also pray for His mercy on someone like this, and I do - but it's tough.

Thank you all for reading this and for your encouragement. I'll let you know if there are any upshots...

mary

[mary]

Oh, thank you, Theodora!!! You are so kind - what a thoughtful and lovely post, beginning to end!

I will try to remember to breathe -- for I have the very Breath of Life - the Holy Spirit - in me... and what could be better?! Thank you so very much for reminding me of this!

May the Lord bless you and keep you today... :)

mary

[Jerry]

Dear Mary,,,
I disagree with you,I think if this guy recieves a registered letter he will read it.Unless of course he is a total moron,which could be the case I suppose.
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Hi Mary,

I think you are courageous for sending that letter. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to find out what happens.


As far as the vindication goes, I was not personally vindicated against the pastor that SA'd me, but I am starting a project that may get his attention. In trying to start a bible study here in town aimed primarily at Italians, he will surely get wind of it. I want to see if he tries to prevent it and uses slander to do so. There is very little material for bible studies here available in Italian, and he is one of the few that could translate it from English. In fact he has a website with a few others that sells translated material from Spurgeon and others. It is only a matter of time until he hears about it. I hope he trips over his tongue and shows others what is really inside him. If he shows them the mails I sent him then I can show them his and refer them to my website where the whole soredid story is.


Something good did happen years back, my dad got born-again as did my mom, and then they were able to guide me too, I had been born-again some three years earlier but had had no guidance or teaching whatsoever. He at least tried to stop drinking then, and finally made it years later, has been dry a long time now. Because of AA he went through the steps, one is to ask forgiveness of the family and those one has hurt. That did a lot to heal our relationship and now we are like best friends.

[Patty]

I am also very curious what will happen with your letter. In all the years since we have been cruelly disfellowshipped, I have never been a part of any vindication, forgiveness, reconciliation, nothing. Nothing even remotely bibilical. We have just been erased. Except for the remaining gossip and slander that has been directed towards us, it is as if we never existed. I wish we would have left town.
I have never really gotten over it and it has left scars. Reading these posts has been the only therapeutic thing that has brought any relief.

[truth]

Because of AA he went through the steps, one is to ask forgiveness of the family and those one has hurt. That did a lot to heal our relationship and now we are like best friends.

That has got to feel good and be very healing to your relationship....

Funny, it was AA that reached him and not the church.....when we did Celebrate Recovery at my church I used to notice the difference between the Celebrate Recovery meetings and "Sunday Morning Services"....

the Celebrate Recovery meetings looked and conveyed alot more of what a real church might look like in terms of safety, honesty and fellowship without the heavy-handed leadership....everyone walking along the same path, in the same direction.

truth

[mary]

I am also very curious what will happen with your letter. In all the years since we have been cruelly disfellowshipped, I have never been a part of any vindication, forgiveness, reconciliation, nothing. Nothing even remotely bibilical. We have just been erased. Except for the remaining gossip and slander that has been directed towards us, it is as if we never existed. I wish we would have left town.
I have never really gotten over it and it has left scars. Reading these posts has been the only therapeutic thing that has brought any relief.

Patty, I am so sorry to read of what's happened to you and how you've received no redress or anything. That makes me so sad... I will keep you in prayer. Obviously, the Lord loves you as His precious child and that's how you've been able to persevere.

I pray that the Lord takes care of and removes even your scars and that the memories of what has been done to you will fade in the light of happy, blessed, new experiences and fellowship.

Carmen, I know that the Lord will take care of these false shepherds like your former "pastor!" He's promised us that there are places in hell that are "hotter than others" and that's where these people will wind up if they don't repent and turn from their evil ways. To proceed in the name of Jesus Christ and also to invoke and use Spurgeon in the furtherance of spiritual abuse: it takes a particularly base, low character to do that. I know that's what we're all talking about here, men who, because of their innate narcissism and combined with a critical lack of character, wound up in seminaries and hence, with their own churches, where they could be peculiarly abusive to their "flocks." But still, obviously, from reading the posts here, I see that there are levels of baseness and sheer lack of character that only a few of these miserable scoundrels actually reach. The Lord will deal with them - and if anything, I'm glad today that even if all of my own efforts via the slander warning letter to my own "pastor-scoundrel" fall flat, none of the Lord's efforts towards him will!!!:D What cheer we can take from that! Our own swords may be weak, but the Lord's are finely honed, as sharp as they need to be - and their wielding will come in His perfect timing. They will strike their marks.

Everyone else on this board, today, you are in my prayers... Thank you just for being here.

mary

[Carmen]

Hi Patty,

Sorry for what you have been through! :(

Truth, AA started with him, but God finished up, through Scripture and his Spirit. He heard the gospel from another AA visitor.

Mary, yes, I agree, God always gets his way, thank Him for that! And He is with us!

Here is a list of "God will not leave us" verses. Put it together for something else but fits in well here.

I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." Genesis 28:15.

For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath. Deuteronomy 4:31.

Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6.

Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you. Psalm 9:10.

Arise, LORD! Lift up your hand, O God. Do not forget the helpless....But you, O God, do see trouble and grief; you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless....You hear, O LORD, the desire of the afflicted; you encourage them, and you listen to their cry, defending the fatherless and the oppressed, in order that man, who is of the earth, may terrify no more.
Psalm 10:12,14,17,18.

Though my father and mother forsake me, the LORD will receive me. Psalm 27:10.

I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread. Psalm 37:25.

For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off Psalm 37:28.

For the LORD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance. Psalm 94:14.

"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. Isaiah 41:17.

I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them. Isaiah 42:16.

But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me." "Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! Isaiah 49:14,15.

What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.´In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. Matthew 18:12-14.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37-40.

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, 'For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' (Psalm 44:22) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39.

And God raised (past tense) us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:6-10

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." Hebrews 13:5. (Deut. 31:6).

[mary]

Update...

It's been one week since my slander warning letter was mailed and I've heard nothing. I believe, though, that I've lost one more of my contacts; she is not calling me anymore. Whatever. :o

Maybe everyone here already knows about this wonderful article, but for those who don't, I just want you to have this link: http://www.harvestnet.org/teachings/hierarchy.htm.

When you get there, go to "On Spiritual Abuse," by Pastor Tom Friedheim. It was written by a Messianic pastor who had suffered from spiritual abuse himself! I was very blessed by this article.

mary

[outcast]

Hmm. Vindication... the only vindication I've seen in the past 6 months since leaving the cult is that others I know and love have also either left, or are about to leave too. Eventually, we hope and pray that attendence there will become nonexistent and that they will no longer pastor in this area. I use that term all too loosely.

I'm sure it will take years before full vindication comes, if ever.

[yeshua'smags]

You'd be suprised, sweet pea! It comes sooner than you think. We are trying not to enjoy our former churche's demise so much. :D ;) :D They have all turned on eachother now. I guess when there aren't the usual kicking posts around that's what happens.

We thought we'd have to watch St. Lucifer's season of prosperity before it crumbled, but they didn't even get that far!

Just because there isn't initial vindication, or it doesn't come in the expected form, don't think it won't happen. And because God is good, it will be better than anything you could have dreamed up yourself!;)

Now please no one get mad at me. I'm not saying that God is going to "get them", or that everyone else is bad and we are all good. And thank God we don't get what we deserve! I'm just saying that a place that does so much damage and runs itself in God's name....well...there are consequences.

The cool thing is, if it be here on earth, or on judgement day, one day they will have to say they were wrong! :cool: Of course, so will we...:o :cool:

[mary]

What constitutes "non-attendance?" Or "demise," besides having to put a "for sale" sign on the stupid building?

My former church is down to about 23 adult members. On the Sunday after "pastor" threw me out (hence, in effect, throwing my husband and our young adult son out as well), he screamed at the congregation that was left, "This church should be full and it's your fault that it's not!" (A friend who has since left but was there that Sunday informed me of it.)

"Pastor" once said in a sermon that if he ended up preaching to just one person sitting in a pew, it wouldn't bother him at all because "God doesn't deal in numbers." (No, He doesn't, but where's your salary coming from, pal? Maybe it'll just fall like manna - d'ya think?... :D )

In the last several months, that church has lost about 11 members due to what happened to me (4 members gone), fleeing for unknown reasons (4) and death (3). When you're down to 23 members -- do you have a church? There are no fully functioning elders, no Sunday school, no Bible studies (might interfere with "pastor's" golf leagues, gym workout schedule and martial arts pursuits) - nothing. I guess I'm just asking if anyone thinks this sort of thing constitutes a "living death..."

I'd like to think it does.

mary

[outcast]

I'd have to agree w/you here Mary. My old church has been in that living death stage for years. My main concern is that I don't want these people to have spiritual influence over others anymore in the form of a pastorate. However, they would likely just go elsewhere if things dried up here anyway. Really, if they were to sale the building/premises, they would get around 1 million dollars since it's all in their name. We didn't realize that when we went there - that we were paying for their eventual retirement plan.

Others I know have sought vindication in the form of the ministry. The old church was famous for its belief that they were the ultimate in ministry/moving in the spiritual gifts and so forth. People I know who have left there have actually adopted an attitude of wanting to get in the ministry to prove to them that God would still use them. I can understand this in a way and almost fell into it myself until I realized how broken I still am. I realized recently how ironic it was for me to try to lead worship in my new church when I don't even read the word and pray on my own anymore. But, that is another issue entirely...

[hornblower]

Yes I have a story of vindication. My daughter as almost everyone here knows was attacked in the first church my famioly belonged too 31 years ago. She was six at the time. After the attack, we were called one time by the pastor. When he called he told my husband that God had shown him that this incident was to be taken out into the back yard and buried.
What that meant was that no one was to know who the attack had been aimed at. Meaning no one knew who we were or that it was my daughter that this attack happened too. Thsi crime was in all of the papers saying that my daughter had been raped which she hadnt been.
My daughter surprisingly did vvery well after this happend seemingly anyway and so did my husband and my son. Not so with me however, I couldnt stop crying. I sat on the couch unable to move and sobbed night and day. No one came to see me no one called to find out how we were nothing. I felt ...........I cant tell you how I felt.
The attacker ran into me as he was trying to escape. I rode up to where my daughter was on the fourth floor of the huge church building in the dark in an elevator with him and the boy who found him trying to murder my little girl and ran after him, chasing him into me.
That night after we got home the scene played back just as if it was happening all over again and again and again and again.........it wouldnt stop.
I tried to go back to church and we tried to teach sunday school but people came up to me in front of my little girl and said horrible things to me saying did you hear about the incident at church? I wonder who is is? One of my best friends called and she didnt know that it was us.
This to me was the same as my sexual abuse when I was little. Covered up.
I went to a prayer meeting and the women there started praying for the family of the little girl. I couldnt help it I started the crying all over again. I refused to hide that it was our family. This upset the pastor terribly and he didnt like me anyway. The asst pastor was sent to get me out of the prayer meeting and I was taken to his office where he told me that I was upsetting his mother and Id better quit doing it.
I went to see the evangelism explosion director thinking he could help me since he was supposed to be a counselor. He asked me if I didnt feel quilty for what happened to my little girl. I said no why would I feel quilty and then he said well the talk is you let her go to the bathroom alone.

We stopped going to church. I didnt go to church for a year or more.

Ill shorten this.
My husband put my kids back in the school there when they were fourteen and fiufteen years old against my wishes. Then he wanted us to start going to church there. I was so upset about it I didnt want to go because I secretly hated these two men.
God told me.........go ahead and go back they wont be there when you go. He promised me they wouldnt. When I went back the evangelist had been kicked out because he was caught in adultery. The pastor moved to another church because he believed that God was telling him to go.
I know this crushed his family and him as they loved being at that church.

Maybe this doesnt seem like much but...........its something.

I cant read this mans heart but God knows what each mans true sins are and takes everything into account the way it happens. Its helped me to know God will do as He says He will do. He will repay. Sooner or later it all comes around.

My own Mother after many years asked me many times to forgive her. I never thought I would ever hear those words come from her mouth but she tuned out to be the sweetest living creature Ive ever known. God can trully do miracles.

[Jo Jo]

from Mary:
What constitutes "non-attendance?" Or "demise," besides having to put a "for sale" sign on the stupid building?

My former church is down to about 23 adult members. On the Sunday after "pastor" threw me out (hence, in effect, throwing my husband and our young adult son out as well), he screamed at the congregation that was left, "This church should be full and it's your fault that it's not!" (A friend who has since left but was there that Sunday informed me of it.)

"Pastor" once said in a sermon that if he ended up preaching to just one person sitting in a pew, it wouldn't bother him at all because "God doesn't deal in numbers." (No, He doesn't, but where's your salary coming from, pal? Maybe it'll just fall like manna - d'ya think?... )

In the last several months, that church has lost about 11 members due to what happened to me (4 members gone), fleeing for unknown reasons (4) and death (3). When you're down to 23 members -- do you have a church? There are no fully functioning elders, no Sunday school, no Bible studies (might interfere with "pastor's" golf leagues, gym workout schedule and martial arts pursuits) - nothing. I guess I'm just asking if anyone thinks this sort of thing constitutes a "living death..."

I'd like to think it does.

oh my gosh Mary... first I'm so sorry this happened to you. I can really relate to the things you said.

The church I came from started with 13, and was down to 12 when my husband and I left, and that was 6 years after it started - it really never went anywhere! And what you shared this pastor said about size and numbers is exactly what was drilled into our head - 'God doesn't deal with numbers'. AND when our pastor would talk about having more people come he would always say, well, do YOU want more people to come it's all of our responsibility which I do feel is true to an extent, but we were so taught about not relying on works there, that we didn't do anything. We weren't allowed to have anything there, and there sure wouldn't be any help with it if we did. We didn't have Sunday School or anything for the kids. We didn't have any meet and greet, or outreach. It was so ridiculous. I mean all of us there, met at another church doing something.... so I mean you have to do something... not work yourself to heaven, but actually talk to a human being, isn't that what Jesus and his disciples did? And not just blame one another if no one is coming to your church, and judge other churches in the area. It's insanity. It was an angry bitter place and the leadership needed to heal from their hurts from their last place of ministry and not try to lead another church out of old hurts, and just cause new ones.

I loved reading your post. It's just wonderful relating to more stuff, and just seeing stuff written down that is still hidden away in me, actually... I keep discovering more stuff. This is good.

It sounds like the pastor you were dealing with can't face the truth any more than the pastor I was dealing with. It's a sad situation. :P

[mary]

Hey, Jo Jo,

Thanks so much for your encouragement! Yes: angry and bitter, as your "church" was... I have to wonder about these people who are left and who are not (or, at least they don't appear to be) the jerks that the pastor and his wife and the other flying monkeys under "pastor's" control are. Do they think they attend an actual, bona fide assembly of Christ's people? :rolleyes: :eek:

"Pastor," "wifey" and the FMs ridiculed us when, after three years of begging them to hold a Bible study to no avail, my husband and I started attending one - at a Messianic Jewish congregation. The same place also offered a beginning Hebrew class for Gentile Christians and Jews and my husband and I enrolled in it. We learned how to say the Aaronic blessing in Hebrew; we learned to read Genesis 1 in Hebrew, etc., etc. We learned a little conversational Hebrew, too. When we told "them" about it ("hey, guess what: we're in a Bible study class, finally, and we're learning Hebrew to boot!") they made fun of us and talked about us behind our backs. Then "pastor" threw me out of the church, but not for that - for something else.

I've come to the conclusion, after all those years of dealing with him and putting up with his self-absorption, his Christless sermons, the "counseling sessions" in which he would talk about himself interminably and in effect, want me to babysit him for the day (because the sessions would last almost 3 hours and would only end when I'd say, "look, I HAVE to get going!"), his sexual advances, etc., etc., that the man is a sociopathic nutcase. He's a classic narcissist and eventually, something he's done is going to catch up with him. Not only did he do what he did to me, you see, he also swindled some elderly people out of a whole lot of money. Someday, there'll be a reckoning, a day of judgment for him - and there'll be one for your "pastor," too. It's just a matter of the Lord's timing.

I think a lot of people - but I wasn't one of them - can see instantly when a church is a cuckoos' nest, and they walk out of there and never come back. So many people did that to my old church! Wish I'd been one of them. I should have seen this place for what it was. The only fellowship we had there was over potluck fellowship luncheons every two weeks, at which "pastor" and his wife would stuff their faces and then walk around the crockpots and casseroles with styrofoam boxes, filling them up for use as their meals all week long... (Yes, this is what shnorrers they were! Shnorrer: Yiddish for "beggar.") Once in awhile, we'd have a bowling party or the annual church picnic, but we never gathered around God's word. Why couldn't I see that this was wrong? So terribly wrong... :confused: :(

What a mess. And I'm still mourning the loss of "friends" there... Whatever...

I thank the Lord for this forum and for all of its correspondents...

mary

[mary]

You'd be suprised, sweet pea! It comes sooner than you think. We are trying not to enjoy our former churche's demise so much. :D ;) :D They have all turned on eachother now. I guess when there aren't the usual kicking posts around that's what happens.

We thought we'd have to watch St. Lucifer's season of prosperity before it crumbled, but they didn't even get that far!

Just because there isn't initial vindication, or it doesn't come in the expected form, don't think it won't happen. And because God is good, it will be better than anything you could have dreamed up yourself!;)

Now please no one get mad at me. I'm not saying that God is going to "get them", or that everyone else is bad and we are all good. And thank God we don't get what we deserve! I'm just saying that a place that does so much damage and runs itself in God's name....well...there are consequences.

The cool thing is, if it be here on earth, or on judgement day, one day they will have to say they were wrong! :cool: Of course, so will we...:o :cool:

Maggie, I didn't know about your old church! Gone with the wind, is it? A "civilization" that will never rise again? :D :D ;) That's great news! Do tell - what happened? Did I miss something???

mary

[Jo Jo]

Mary wrote:
Thanks so much for your encouragement! Yes: angry and bitter, as your "church" was... I have to wonder about these people who are left and who are not (or, at least they don't appear to be) the jerks that the pastor and his wife and the other flying monkeys under "pastor's" control are. Do they think they attend an actual, bona fide assembly of Christ's people?

Hi Mary! :)

Yes, most the people left there at the church I left are sweet people. We all started there 7 years ago from another church that was spiritually abusive. So things were going to be different for us, better. So we were all hurt people, including the pastor and his wife - that is why it's so hard to understand why they became even worse than where we left! :confused:

The ones that the pastor picks on during the sermon are quiet, he knows they won't say anything back. I feel the church became the Pastor's wife show. She gives words from God. Or she dances during worship or lays in the pew at the beginning of service. It's really her lead on what kind of atmosphere the service will have that day. And if we came there in a different mood from hers... then we hadn't "heard the spirit". Just typing that makes me so tired I could fall of this chair. I am so sick of that line of thinking and have been pushed it so long... and I don't believe it, but I still feel like a second class citizen and I know that's why I don't approach God anymore. But I know in my head all that is not true. And I do approach God some... I even prayed for two people on this forum... this place is good for me. :D Just all that stuff has done such damage. blegh

Anyway the people left there know they aren't in a denominational church because they got burned out on them too, but I don't think they know they are in a cultic church, just like I was blind to it until I really got out of there for a while and started feeling the fresh air again. Ahhhhhh I can breath. :)

I felt, also, that the church was just very self absorbed, it was all about them, the word he had to give that Sunday... how she felt in the spirit that Sunday. It was important we were all respecting them properly - even though it didn't go both ways. We were all close friends and then would laugh and joke with them at dinner after Sunday service. They had total access to us, but we only had partial access to them. Bad boundaries for sure.

[mary]

I felt, also, that the church was just very self absorbed, it was all about them, the word he had to give that Sunday... how she felt in the spirit that Sunday. It was important we were all respecting them properly - even though it didn't go both ways. We were all close friends and then would laugh and joke with them at dinner after Sunday service. They had total access to us, but we only had partial access to them. Bad boundaries for sure.

My goodness, Jo Jo! How similar our churches were! (We had an ethnic component to ours: if you weren't from a particular part of the U.K., you were beneath contempt, not worthy of prayer if you were sick, etc., etc. Only those from that part of the U.K. "counted.") Sure, they'd treat "us" well - during fellowship luncheons, and it was conceded that we were good cooks and they liked our food better than what they'd been eating in the U.K. (I've been to the U.K. three times: our marginal lines of dog food - not that I've ever tried them - has got to be better than what's served up in some of their "five-star" restaurants! ;) ) But treating us like human beings? Or brothers and sisters in Christ? No way!

What a bunch of eternal losers. We're well rid of them, Jo Jo!

Blessings,

mary

[ex-shep]

Hmm. Vindication... the only vindication I've seen in the past 6 months since leaving the cult is that others I know and love have also either left, or are about to leave too. Eventually, we hope and pray that attendence there will become nonexistent and that they will no longer pastor in this area. I use that term all too loosely.

I'm sure it will take years before full vindication comes, if ever.

Great topic. It depends. Some groups never get it. Sometimes it does come back to bite them as Mags mentioned. In my case, the outcomes have been different and interesting at the same time. I will also include my former employer with the female bully in the mix. I will take each group in chronological order.

As far as the campus fellowship in the 80s, after I graduated there was a major shakeup and many did leave. Those that did not started to smell a rat. The church members started to do their homework and did not like what they saw. They were right in the middle of the shepherding discipleship movement and submitted two churches away from the top leaders. The pastor of the sponsoring church was asked to resign. One of the leaders of the campus fellowship resigned and actually went on to a more fufilling ministry. I wonder about his methods, but his heart seems to be in the right place. There was a recognition of shepherding and desire among the campus fellowships to clean house. I also had many direct confrontations with leaders over deceptive recruiting. One campus rep did eat his humble pie a la mode. He approached me working an events table crab red with embarrasment, "We blew it".

Tammy's group had several monumental shake ups. Members were being counseled out through professional interventions. There were apparently a series of mass walkouts by members. There were a series of articles in the newspaper accross the country. The group kept shooting themselves in the foot. They tried to set shop at urban university. The only problem I often walked accross campus. When their slick posters went up, my girlfriend I went to work with a $2 roll of nickels, library xerox machine, and a roll of masking tape. As Bugs Bunny would say, "Fight fire with fire they always say". We taped over the posters a newspaper article of a former member with the Headline "Jane's Story! How she joined and how she was deprogrammed!!". The campus chapter disbanded in less than a year. My roommate went to a recruiting event in a large ballroom. There were only ten people there. The group founder did leave. There were meetings with evangelical accountability groups and the anti-cult movement working toward reconciliation. What the group is like today is enough post. I am a member of it today and I drive thirty miles to worship-- so that must say something. Some fellowships are great; others still have a long way to go.

The bible school is same old same old. I check their website and have followed alum. It is still chilling.

I was briefly entangled with a oneness pentecostal group at the invitation of a college friend. He left and is bitter.

My former employer with the bully? I believe it is only a matter of time before "Maria" shoots herself in the foot. I do speak out on the workplace bullying. I do believe God's will and timing is perfect; so I have done nothing about the situation. The employer has been in denial since day one. I pray their eyes will be opened. I pray for Maria that she gets the help she needs.

The employer that turned about to be a business cult is already feeling the heat legally. It is a matter of public record. I am not sure whether to speak out or not. The fact they have a buzzsaw of bad press is not helping their cause. I do pray that employees will what is happening and leave. My gut feeling is that time is on my side as far as this employer is concerned.

This is 20 years of retrospective. It will be interesting to see what shakes out. I can not predict the future. One source of vindidiction I can hang my hat is that I am out and in recovery.

[Patty]

I feel the church became the Pastor's wife show. She gives words from God. Or she dances during worship or lays in the pew at the beginning of service. It's really her lead on what kind of atmosphere the service will have that day. And if we came there in a different mood from hers... then we hadn't "heard the spirit". Just typing that makes me so tired I could fall of this chair. I am so sick of that line of thinking and have been pushed it so long... and I don't believe it, but I still feel like a second class citizen and I know that's why I don't approach God anymore. But I know in my head all that is not true.

Oh...yuk.yuk,yuk....boy did your statement here bring up some memories. I so experienced this with not just one but two pastor's wives just like you describe. It gives me shudders to read this!!!!

[Jo Jo]

Mary wrote:
My goodness, Jo Jo! How similar our churches were! (We had an ethnic component to ours: if you weren't from a particular part of the U.K., you were beneath contempt, not worthy of prayer if you were sick, etc., etc. Only those from that part of the U.K. "counted.") Sure, they'd treat "us" well - during fellowship luncheons, and it was conceded that we were good cooks and they liked our food better than what they'd been eating in the U.K. (I've been to the U.K. three times: our marginal lines of dog food - not that I've ever tried them - has got to be better than what's served up in some of their "five-star" restaurants! ) But treating us like human beings? Or brothers and sisters in Christ? No way!

Mary this is so sad, I can't imagine having to go through this because of what locale you are from - being shunned or treated less because of that and having your food rejected too! It's just ridiculous, but I know it happens. Be sure to know that you are an equal and valuable member of the Body of Christ... don't let ANYONE tell you differently.

[Jo Jo]

ex-shep ~

Yes the best and healthiest vindication is leaving and being in recovery. Oooo but don't we want more. :rolleyes: Well, part of me does, but I know it won't satisfy, because it will only always be my side of things.

I have hopes that group will fold, that would be vindication for me, but I know they would not interpret it that way. They will never see anything but as affirmation of God's approval of them and their ways - I've heard too much of their reasoning. After my husband and I left they had to leave the building they were borrowing and they now meet in a home. So they don't even meet in a building anymore. Nothing seems to stop them. Barely any members for 7 years, no building and still they say things like, "Jesus had 12 disciples too, the number of members don't count, no one understood the disciples either and they were persecuted." Even though, again, no one is persecuting this church, most people don't even know they exist - I only share about stuff here and to my counselor. If anyone talks to them I think they might have invited the pastor to meet with other pastor groups in the community. He gets no outside input from anyone. They think everyone is against them and yet they only interpret this as affirmation that they are going in the right direction with God, their teaching and attitudes.

I wonder how they explain no one is coming to their church? Wait I know how they explain it (I was there)... This is what they would say, "it's the end times and evil have blinded the eyes of the people, they would rather stay in their organized religions and people please and ignore God." See how what these people say sounds good, but then is so twisted when you look at the fruit. There is only these 12 people that have the truth and everyone else is in the dark, well it would be nice then if they shared it with the rest of us... don't you think? Ugh My brain. *pop* :o :confused: :rolleyes:

Ah, back to the vindication subject... I'm out, I'm learning, I'm getting help. ;) whewwwww

[Jo Jo]

Patty wrote:
Oh...yuk.yuk,yuk....boy did your statement here bring up some memories. I so experienced this with not just one but two pastor's wives just like you describe. It gives me shudders to read this!!!!

Oh Patty, I'm sorry I gave you the willies. But yes, weren't you tired of the drama shows. Where was God in all that? I hope you recover from reading that, think good thoughts like we're free and don't have to watch them act out every week. ;)

[witweew]

yea, for workout music, you basically need hard-hitting euro-dance music.... nothing else does the job

really. Search around on iTunes for "euro club hits" or check this link:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSearchwa/advancedSearchResults?albumTerm=Euro+Club+Hits+Vol

[Anne]

yea, for workout music, you basically need hard-hitting euro-dance music.... nothing else does the job

really. Search around on iTunes for "euro club hits" or check this link:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSearch.woa/wa/advancedSearchResults?albumTerm=Club+Hits+Vol

Uuuuum....this post doesn't look like it fits here. Is this the kind of thing we report?:o

[Jerry]

Uuuuum....this post doesn't look like it fits here. Is this the kind of thing we report?:o

Yes Anne,,,,this is a very old thread ,but a good example of the kind of links we want to keep to a minimum ;)

[Siobhanne]

My spiritually abusive experiences took place in a large southern church, one of America's largest and most politically active denominations. The pastor of this church is a who's who in his denomination, a published author and is politically active. When I tried to share some of my experiences with my family, I was met with criticism and disbelief.. and basically accused of character assassignation. I was also called an "unbeliever".

One of my many bad experiences involved my having received an e-mail from a missionary (and fellow church member) who was financially supported by our church. The missionary sent me ( and others) an e-mail regarding something that had happened in his workday. What this man said cannot be put on the internet because his language was very graphic, sexual and inappropriately ridiculed his patient ( He was a medical missionary). If this had happened stateside and in a secular setting.. this man would have been fired immediately and had his professional license removed. The e-mail was very hurtful because I could easily identify with the woman who was his patient.

I shared this e-mail with the pastor (who was not one of the church members who received it). I did not discuss it or share it with anyone else, including the others who received it. They did not mention it to me either. It took the pastor a week to reply.. all he said was that he would look into it. Several weeks later, the pastor saw me in a hallway. He came to me, grabbed me around the neck with his left hand and pinned me to the wall ( this man is approx 6 ft tall and not thin, I am a woman of short stature and slight build). With his right hand, he shoved his finger into my face and told me that I'd better keep my mouth shut, accused me of destroying this "missionary's" ministry, the churches credibility and advised me that anything I said was unfounded gossip.

I no longer attend this cult. The "pastor" who threatened me (not only physically but tried to interfere with family relations) is now and has been fighting a lawsuit for the past year brought about by 71 plaintiffs with constitutions much stronger than mine. They've established a website and have unearthed much physical evidence that this pious man of God has been mismanaging church funds for quite a while to provide a lavish lifestyle for himself and his family. They've also uncovered many documents that do not mesh with the explainations he gave at the time. The list is extensive. There are also hundreds of others who are backing the plaintiff and hundreds who just walked out the doors like I did.

Do I feel vindicated? Yes I do. People are starting to come out of the woodwork with stories much like mine, where they were threatened or harrassed to keep them quiet. Beneath this man's desiginer suits there is a stench that the whole world is beginning to smell.

Siobhanne.

[Willow]

Do I feel vindicated? Yes I do. People are starting to come out of the woodwork with stories much like mine, where they were threatened or harrassed to keep them quiet. Beneath this man's desiginer suits there is a stench that the whole world is beginning to smell.

Siobhanne.

Heya Siobhanne! I've been following your story for several years and remain astounded at how the vindication process is unfolding against that pastor. YAY! I find myself cheering his demise and cringing when he seems to be gaining ground. Is that a sin? Awww... who cares!