Getting Rid of the Evidence

[Katie]

This thought by spinninghead has me thinking:

"Even though it may have happened over a year ago. I come across some documentation on my desk and then I'm stuck in this, "when am I going to be over this?". I've got a 4" folder w/ documentation and 5 folders of project documentation and I can't being myself to put it in a box & store it in the attic. I'd love to throw it away but I can't...still a potential for law suits exists."

Just like in a divorce, there has been a process of getting rid of the reminders of our involvement at the church that abused us. I may have said this before, but on a website that had the leadership team's picture, they cropped us out of the picture when we left. It's been almost 2 years now, and that stupid cropped picture is still there. Actually, it seems kind of funny to me because it's so symbolic, as if they could pretend we were never there.

I'm cleaning files and drawers this weekend. There were lots of things I threw away immediately, like minutes and financial reports from elders meetings. There are other things that I set aside because I didn't want to be hasty in throwing everything out. There are old teaching tapes, lesson notes, and books that are going in the garbage today.

There are other things that I just avoid. They are triggering to return to, yet a part of me wants to hold onto them as documentation of what happened. There are a series of e-mails that I haven't erased yet. I have some notes of meetings that are evidence of others who were abused. It seems useful to hold that evidence, although perhaps I wonder if it would be better for me to let go of it.

The last thing is "the letter." As I was cleaning my computer desk yesterday, I knew I would come across it, tucked amidst other old papers. This is a 3-page letter written as the last official communication to us telling us how wrong we are. My husband refused to ever read it. I read it and stuck it away.

I know it's there. It seems to have an aura about - a repulsion, yet a magnetic pull to read it again. Like weighing yourself, there is a morbid curiosity to face the reality of it occasionally.

I don't know what's going to happen with "the letter." Maybe someday I'll throw it away. Maybe someday I'll post it. I think what I'm waiting for is the day that I can read it and not have it affect me anymore.

[Jerry]

I know it's there. It seems to have an aura about - a repulsion, yet a magnetic pull to read it again. Like weighing yourself, there is a morbid curiosity to face the reality of it occasionally.

I don't know what's going to happen with "the letter." Maybe someday I'll throw it away. Maybe someday I'll post it. I think what I'm waiting for is the day that I can read it and not have it affect me anymore.
Dear Katie,,,,
And that day will be when you give up the "Vindication Fantisy".When will that be ?????? Ha ,,,,,,,,,,couldn't tell ya,,,,its been years and I still have mine ;)
Love Jerry

[Katie]

hey jerry,
what are you doing? reading my mind?!

p.s. i typed this with one finger in your honor. i won't tell you which finger. ;)
i have a sandwich in the other hand.

[Joseph]

Hi Katie,

I did the same thing, I refuse to discard anything (even though I should be doing what your doing) because I wanted to be prepared with evidence if anything ever came up again because like Jerry said, I wanted vindication day, which isn't going to come.

I think it's necessary to get rid of all this stuff because it will promote and speed up your healing if it's not around to remind you, and if we're trying to fight, are we really giving the situation up to God? God will take it over when we get out of the way.

I'll tell you a story quickly, when I was in my last month, alot of plotting and planning was being done behind the backs of myself and my friend who were leaving. Over three or four weeks things were being said by the leaders and the pastors wife. How did we know you ask? We new the password to the pastors wife's e-mail accout and read and printed all the crap they were saying about us. I never said to them that I had that information but I did ask them why they were talking about us behind our backs and they swore that they never said a word to each other or anyone.

I know that wasn't honest, but I don't regret doing it because at that crucial moment that I had to be sure, I was sure that they were liars and I couldn't trust them at all.

Your post is inspiring me to start throwing away the stuff I have and I will finally delete those e-mails, it's time.

Joe

[Carmen]

I still have e-mails from the SA pastor too, well, I wove them into an article. I always keep original documents used for anything I write.

At least I am going to leave the address and phone number out of my new calendar/phonebook for next year. I had already made up the last calender early for this year or it wouldn't have been in there. I had left it in the hope that he would call me up and apologize. (Wouldn't have made me return to that church, but would have tied up a loose end anyway.) It will be a ceremony when that number gets skipped over in the copying. Good riddance. Gee, maybe I'll even have a Baileys to celebrate.

[ninaspirit]

do some people here use art to heal from their experiences? you have lots of printed medium/evidence (phrases, words, images can be added, etc. ) to use if you don't throw away the evidence. maybe a colage expressing your experiences, add thoughts/feelings/images how it affected you....... unveiling will be held at next world conference - kidding about the last part. but make sure the media shows up if you dare to do it. don't want the church community to go back into hiding after all that work. dealing in artful ways can help look at painful expereinces for what they are.......important to honor our expereinces instead of stuffing them or throwing them out. and if they get on display can help others be more aware of what is going on. might be helpful for some. just a thought. the ninas.

[Joseph]

Now your talkin Carmen! Bailey's in Italy! I remember sitting on the Med, sipping Bailey's, those were good times. Bailey's wasn't so easy to find in Sicily though.

Joe

[Jerry]

do some people here use art to heal from their experiences? you have lots of printed medium/evidence (phrases, words, images can be added, etc. ) to use if you don't throw away the evidence. maybe a colage expressing your experiences, add thoughts/feelings/images how it affected you....... unveiling will be held at next world conference - kidding about the last part. but make sure the media shows up if you dare to do it. don't want the church community to go back into hiding after all that work. dealing in artful ways can help look at painful expereinces for what they are.......important to honor our expereinces instead of stuffing them or throwing them out. and if they get on display can help others be more aware of what is going on. might be helpful for some. just a thought. the ninas.
Dear Ninas,,,
Very interesting post,,,,,,,,I like the way you think kiddo :D
Love Jerry

[Meg Evenstar]

Umm.. I kept a file of e-mails and such too, but now I don't know where they are. I think I orginally kept it for evidence that this really did happen. Now I don't know why I still have it. I don't intend to ever read it again or use it for anything. Maybe it's just part of my life story now.

Meg

[butterfly]

do some people here use art to heal from their experiences? you have lots of printed medium/evidence (phrases, words, images can be added, etc. ) to use if you don't throw away the evidence. maybe a colage expressing your experiences, add thoughts/feelings/images how it affected you....... unveiling will be held at next world conference - kidding about the last part. but make sure the media shows up if you dare to do it. don't want the church community to go back into hiding after all that work. dealing in artful ways can help look at painful expereinces for what they are.......important to honor our expereinces instead of stuffing them or throwing them out. and if they get on display can help others be more aware of what is going on. might be helpful for some. just a thought. the ninas.
:) Ninas, what a good idea. I used art to remember some PTSD stuff. It helped me at the time because writing it out was to painfull.
It would be nice that all of us who have been S.A. could have a conference. To show people it is true. Plus help some people who are in S.A. now.butterfly [shirely]

[Leslie]

..important to honor our expereinces instead of stuffing them or throwing them out. the ninas.

Ninas, I appreciate what you said so eloquently here.

I have files. Files of the emails showing my good faith attempts to seek peace, the lack of responses, my questions, the lack of responses, the pulling rank . . . I have a log of the marriage stuff, too.

I don't mean it like a weapon. Somehow I knew that it would be imprtant to me; it would validate that I really went through this. I need to see it to sort it out. And when the history is rewritten or the moods change and I'm expected to be Emotional Elastigirl, I would have an explanation for how I got where I got. That it 'proves' that (((((((((((((( trigger coming )))))))))))))) I'm "keeping a record of wrongs suffered" to some, really doesn't bother me. A simplistic take on 1 Cor 13 like that doesn't warrant much worry.

[Carmen]

To all,

If it wouldn't bother you, send the yucky correspondence to me before you get rid of it entirely. I am discreet, would not tell about it without your express permission. I am interested in the terminology and methods of manipulation used, am looking for patterns used in denominations and movements, trying to identify isolated incidents versus systems of manipulation, trying to find out if certain doctrines make people susceptible to manipulation or provoke pastors to do it. To do that I would need a broad base of information and correspondence if it is to be had.

Carmen

[Joseph]

Hey Carmen,

I don't want you to think I forgot you. I told you I would help you with that information and I'll put aside time during this week to do that. The information that you have compiled and shared with us is fantastic. It must take a tremendous amount of time to just to gather it all, read through it, analyze it, and then make it available to everyone. I'll help you however I can.

For a great & needed cause,
Joe

[Carmen]

Awww, thanks Joe, :o

I'm glad to help even if it is in such a small way. I think that we have to watch out for ourselves and each other. There are too many out there that want to fleece us and even if it can't be stopped entirely, at least people can be warned to avoid it or comforted when they couldn't. Prevention through information is the first step in the process, in my opinion.

I type and speed read but even so it does take a lot of time. Trying to help others avoid what happened to me or worse is what drives me. Also, I can't stand it when someone tries to deceive me on purpose. That really gets me going.

Carmen

[SpinningHead]

Believe me, I would love to toss out everything and be done with it. I'm very much a "toss it out" person. But right now I can't b/c it involves liability...who knows? I might actually get my vindication day.

Lindsey, I also like what you said that it reminds you that you really went through this time in your life. My nightmare seems so surreal at times and then for some reason I come across some documentation that says, nope, not a nightmare! very real stuff here. :(

[ninaspirit]

I have files. Files of the emails showing my good faith attempts to seek peace, the lack of responses, my questions, the lack of responses, the pulling rank . . . I have a log of the marriage stuff, too.

I don't mean it like a weapon. Somehow I knew that it would be imprtant to me; it would validate that I really went through this. I need to see it to sort it out. And when the history is rewritten or the moods change and I'm expected to be Emotional Elastigirl, I would have an explanation for how I got where I got. That it 'proves' that (((((((((((((( trigger coming )))))))))))))) I'm "keeping a record of wrongs suffered" to some, really doesn't bother me. A simplistic take on 1 Cor 13 like that doesn't warrant much worry. leslie


Hi Leslie,

we arent sure how you understood our post about 1 Cor 13 but we were meaning how abusers arent seeing how God was wanting people to see him or know him. how our dad was - said we were lucky every day God didn't wipe us off the face of the earth. not how God is. when he hurt us he said it was because he loved us. when he killed our pets he siad it was how God wanted him to take care of the earth. "keeping records" - he would put his workers in a bad light for us and decide what would happen to them if they didn't turn to God. he said God told him things that would come true but in time we saw they didn't come true even if we wanted to believe him. it made us doubt God till we could see God isn't how our dad was. these are some of our records from our dad. they are part of our history because they are our experiences from him not our judgements of him. we aren't saying how you or some body else should be with your anger or pain from your experiences or rage. no, God is open to hearing that because God is about love and healing. it doesn't mean we don't have anger about the abuse.

we often got confused with all the politics in church and at home because abusers make it more complicate than how it is. abusers make it look like we are stupid and don't do it right and make them selfs look better by having a louder voice and being a bully. the secrets and lies make things look complicated - make it look like we are missing some thing. our words are simple because some are taken away right now.

we talk from where we are at, and see others have better ways for saying things. we used to talk like that more. and our I person does with her job. but some things changed after splitting. having less words where memories are - some time more some times less. but we think we have an idea how God is for us. we aren't done yet. so maybe we will see things differnt some day. we have tears when we write this because we remember the splitting.

we have to go to work now. bye ninas.

[gwen]

To all,

If it wouldn't bother you, send the yucky correspondence to me before you get rid of it entirely. I am discreet, would not tell about it without your express permission. I am interested in the terminology and methods of manipulation used, am looking for patterns used in denominations and movements, trying to identify isolated incidents versus systems of manipulation, trying to find out if certain doctrines make people susceptible to manipulation or provoke pastors to do it. To do that I would need a broad base of information and correspondence if it is to be had.

Carmen

Carmen,

I have written out over 30 pages of my memories from my ten years in our former church "cult". Would you want those?

Gwen

[SpinningHead]

we arent sure how you understood our post about 1 Cor 13 but we were meaning how abusers arent seeing how God was wanting people to see him or know him. how our dad was - said we were lucky every day God didn't wipe us off the face of the earth. not how God is. when he hurt us he said it was because he loved us. when he killed our pets he siad it was how God wanted him to take care of the earth. "keeping records" - he would put his workers in a bad light for us and decide what would happen to them if they didn't turn to God. he said God told him things that would come true but in time we saw they didn't come true even if we wanted to believe him. it made us doubt God till we could see God isn't how our dad was. these are some of our records from our dad. they are part of our history because they are our experiences from him not our judgements of him. we aren't saying how you or some body else should be with your anger or pain from your experiences or rage. no, God is open to hearing that because God is about love and healing. it doesn't mean we don't have anger about the abuse.

we often got confused with all the politics in church and at home because abusers make it more complicate than how it is. abusers make it look like we are stupid and don't do it right and make them selfs look better by having a louder voice and being a bully. the secrets and lies make things look complicated - make it look like we are missing some thing. our words are simple because some are taken away right now.


Sounds all very Pat Robinson-ish. :(

[Doug64]

The things we still have - a few notebooks full of sermon notes and a book written by the present pastor general - are kept primarily for reference. They said such-and-such about this topic - and here's where it was said.
I rarely refer to any of it though. There are a couple of recovery websites for the group which do still have a lot of this information.

I'm no artist, so I don't think stick men would help much.

Doug

[Jerry]

Hi Leslie,

we arent sure how you understood our post about 1 Cor 13 but we were meaning how abusers arent seeing how God was wanting people to see him or know him. how our dad was - said we were lucky every day God didn't wipe us off the face of the earth. not how God is. when he hurt us he said it was because he loved us. when he killed our pets he siad it was how God wanted him to take care of the earth. "keeping records" - he would put his workers in a bad light for us and decide what would happen to them if they didn't turn to God. he said God told him things that would come true but in time we saw they didn't come true even if we wanted to believe him. it made us doubt God till we could see God isn't how our dad was. these are some of our records from our dad. they are part of our history because they are our experiences from him not our judgements of him. we aren't saying how you or some body else should be with your anger or pain from your experiences or rage. no, God is open to hearing that because God is about love and healing. it doesn't mean we don't have anger about the abuse.

we often got confused with all the politics in church and at home because abusers make it more complicate than how it is. abusers make it look like we are stupid and don't do it right and make them selfs look better by having a louder voice and being a bully. the secrets and lies make things look complicated - make it look like we are missing some thing. our words are simple because some are taken away right now.

we talk from where we are at, and see others have better ways for saying things. we used to talk like that more. and our I person does with her job. but some things changed after splitting. having less words where memories are - some time more some times less. but we think we have an idea how God is for us. we aren't done yet. so maybe we will see things differnt some day. we have tears when we write this because we remember the splitting.

we have to go to work now. bye ninas.
Dear Ninas,,,
No words,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I have never seen anyone apply such beauty to uglyness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,come to think of it,I DO believe in "Angels"
Love Jerry

[ninaspirit]

.....I DO believe in "Angels"
Love Jerry :D good thing.

Sounds all very Pat Robinson-ish. SpinningHead


we never heard about Pat Robinson - guess he wasn't very nice, huh? there must be lots of them.

[Leslie]

Hi Leslie,
we arent sure how you understood our post about 1 Cor 13 but we were meaning how abusers arent seeing how God was wanting people to see him or know him. .

Dear Ninas,
Oh, I feel bad because I wrote ambiguously. When I mentioned "people who have a simplistic view of 1 Cor 13" (specifically the verse about 'not keeping an account of wrongs suffered), I was speaking about a few people close to me, at the churches in my circle, who think my record keeping is sinful. I'll have to read your reply more in a moment. But for now, please know I was not at all referring to you or to anyone here. Not in the least. I found what you said about honoring our experiences to be very insightful. I really appreciated hearing this in many posts on this thread, and thought you said it so well. You communicate very eloquently.

I am so sorry for what you went through. I am sorry for the tears. Thank you for sharing of yourself here.

Blessings to you,
Leslie

[ninaspirit]

Dear Ninas,
Oh, I feel bad because I wrote ambiguously. When I mentioned "people who have a simplistic view of 1 Cor 13" (specifically the verse about 'not keeping an account of wrongs suffered), I was speaking about a few people close to me, at the churches in my circle, who think my record keeping is sinful. I'll have to read your reply more in a moment. But for now, please know I was not at all referring to you or to anyone here. Not in the least. I found what you said about honoring our experiences to be very insightful. I really appreciated hearing this in many posts on this thread, and thought you said it so well. You communicate very eloquently.

I am so sorry for what you went through. I am sorry for the tears. Thank you for sharing of yourself here.

Blessings to you,
Leslie



Hi Leslie,

no, don't be sorry, we misunderstood you. lol. but it was a good way for putting it in order for us again. we aren't sure how it is eloquent though - Jerry said that word to. we have to keep learning. :) us ninas.

[Carmen]

I have written out over 30 pages of my memories from my ten years in our former church "cult". Would you want those?
Sure Gwen! Send it to the PO box listed on my site, or I can PM my home address to you. You just have to tell me what I can do or not do with the material. Even if you should prefer I keep it all under lock and key, which preference I will honor, I think it will help me build up a case database in which I can find similarities, trends and whatever else comes out of it. My findings could then be published as a whole or in a series of articles. I am potentially looking years into the future here, depending on what I can gather or what people are willing to send to me. Hopefully it won't take too long.

I am patient though. I have been collecting information for some articles on some movements for 2 or 3 years now. Am in one movement directly, was in it for years before I knew it had sect-like tendencies, am using the opportunity to gather more specific information that an outsider couldn't. It will be interesting to see what happens after the death of the founder, the person is already quite old. I just hope I can hang on that long; I don't want to start proselytizing or doing volunteer work for the movement, which may be expected of me soon. Then it will be time to jump ship. The movement has a "soft" indoctrination, most of the pressure is by peer pressure, though always of a positive nature, and you know what to think about the speeches and testimonies because they are explained to you - to make sure you get the "right" message. Now that my eyes are open to it, it is interesting to experience two opposite things at the same time. On the one hand, I know what they want me to think and feel, it is so obvious, and most go along with the gag like a dog obediently with his leash. On the other hand I can see how they manipulate, be it ever so subtle and friendly, and have my own thoughts and feelings about what was said. Am starting to ramble.....better stop here. Hey, I can start another thread about "soft" indoctrination.

Carmen

[gwen]

Sure Gwen! Send it to the PO box listed on my site, or I can PM my home address to you.


What I have written is basically an account of the abuses over the years. I didn't write about the heretical doctrine. We used to have lots and lots of transcripts of messages and articles and audiotapes, but after we left, we threw all those away. Because our middle son took leaving so hard (and we were afraid that he was going to return back to the cult once he turned 18), we hired Rick Ross to do an intervention with him. We gave Rick a lot of the materials before the intervention so he could address issues with our son. I'm assuming that he threw the materials away after the intervention, I don't know for sure, but I do know that he didn't give them back to us! :D

Our former "pastor" taught "kingdom theology". An excellent site that I've found that really explains "kingdom theology" is http://members.tripod.com/thecontenders/kingdom1.htm. There's a couple of well-known "kingdom theology" teachers that our former "pastor" was a student of their teachings. Our former "pastor" repeated things that they taught pretty much word-for-word. Our former "pastor" got the congregation to believe that he's an apostle according to Eph. 4:11 and that we were to do everything he dictated to us and that we had to submit ALL of our decisions to him. Of course he utilized all of Lifton's criteria of mind control to convince the people to go along with him.

Anyway, I'll be glad to send you a copy of my accounts of abuse, if that's what you're looking for...I looked up your address on your site and I can just send it there. About publishing anything, I would just like you to check with me first.

Gwen

[Leslie]

Hi Leslie,

no, don't be sorry, we misunderstood you. lol. but it was a good way for putting it in order for us again. we aren't sure how it is eloquent though - Jerry said that word to. we have to keep learning. :) us ninas.

Dear Ninas,
I'm thankful that you got my clarification. I feel quite bad that you had to go a day thinking that I was referring to you. I'm going to try to write more carefully in the future.
Leslie

[ex-shep]

Our former "pastor" taught "kingdom theology".

I shudder at the thought. So did the bible school and it was networking with other groups doing the same. Two weeks before I walked out, the senior pastor and president of the bible school announced of a network of believers. It was too close for me. It was starting to get real hot in the kitchen.

I recognise the shepherding dynamic a mile away.

[ex-shep]

http://members.tripod.com/thecontenders/kingdom1.htm[/url]. There's a couple of well-known "kingdom theology" teachers that our former "pastor" was a student of their teachings. Our former "pastor" repeated things that they taught pretty much word-for-word. Our former "pastor" got the congregation to believe that he's an apostle according to Eph. 4:11 and that we were to do everything he dictated to us and that we had to submit ALL of our decisions to him. Of course he utilized all of Lifton's criteria of mind control to convince the people to go along with him.

I read the link as much as I could. That was too close to home for me. Had to skimmed lest I start floating-- and I have been out over 20 years. Talk about being powerless.

The bible school founder and one of the protegees took part in the Prarie Fires revival. The school did subscribe to the five fold ministry. There was a definate semblance of Kingdom Now. The school thought it was its responsibility to bring revival and the second coming. You will have to send a PM. Would be interested know what you were involved with.

[ninaspirit]

NO Leslie stop. you didn't say anything wrong. it is not your fault at all. we didn't go through a whole day thinking you were referring to us. it probably looked like a whole day because we didn't get back till late in the day. we didn't realize that. we will try to ask wehn we don't understand if that is ok with you? :) take care. us ninas

[Jerry]

Hi Leslie,

no, don't be sorry, we misunderstood you. lol. but it was a good way for putting it in order for us again. we aren't sure how it is eloquent though - Jerry said that word to. we have to keep learning. :) us ninas.
I have a deal for the Ninas,,,,,,,I promise and swear before God,,,,,never to deliberatly hurt the Ninas feelings,,,Ninas can do the same perhaps,,,,then we can all know that we are just trying to find our way.If the ninas are scared of this then I will just keep my part anyway :)
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Our former "pastor" taught "kingdom theology". An excellent site that I've found that really explains "kingdom theology" is http://members.tripod.com/thecontenders/kingdom1.htm. There's a couple of well-known "kingdom theology" teachers that our former "pastor" was a student of their teachings. Our former "pastor" repeated things that they taught pretty much word-for-word. Our former "pastor" got the congregation to believe that he's an apostle according to Eph. 4:11 and that we were to do everything he dictated to us and that we had to submit ALL of our decisions to him. Of course he utilized all of Lifton's criteria of mind control to convince the people to go along with him.

Anyway, I'll be glad to send you a copy of my accounts of abuse, if that's what you're looking for...I looked up your address on your site and I can just send it there. About publishing anything, I would just like you to check with me first.
I will check with you as you wish.

I am familiar both with Kingdom Theology and Lifton's criteria, firsthand. I was edging into Kingdom Theology about 5 years ago...(was into it years before that but was interrupted) glad God stopped me. The mind control was used on me AFTER I had read of Lifton's criteria in Singer's book just last year, the SA. I knew that something was terribly wrong and opened the book. It is one thing to read about it and another to get the brunt of it. Now I have both angles. That is why I am not afraid to sneak into (mild) groups that believe nonsense, to get an inside look at it. I consider myself to be immune now. At least I sure hope so. I would avoid the moonies and such groups at all costs, though. I only directly mess with those that do "soft" indoctrination.

Thanks heaps, Gwen! :D

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Carmen]I will check with you as you wish.

I am familiar both with Kingdom Theology and Lifton's criteria, firsthand. I was edging into Kingdom Theology about 5 years ago...(was into it years before that but was interrupted) glad God stopped me.


Congratulations for noticing before you were over your head. Of course God gets the glory, but nothing wrong with a pat on the back that smelled smoke and got out. That is essentially what happened to me too. Makes feel good I am not the only who left his group that way. :)

[ninaspirit]

I have a deal for the Ninas,,,,,,,I promise and swear before God,,,,,never to deliberatly hurt the Ninas feelings,,,Ninas can do the same perhaps,,,,then we can all know that we are just trying to find our way.If the ninas are scared of this then I will just keep my part anyway :)
Love Jerry


thats great Jerry. we are trying to make this stop. but we will say something so peoplle understand us better maybe. we think you are right our littles should go some where else. some times they show up here and they don't know how to read the words. the words are to big for them and some times words get erased. we think it isn't always a same one reading and we don't all understnad the same way. at least we learned that from being here. so we are thinking when our bigs or our I person can just be here we can post but right now we are going to stop for a while. we are needing to get help sorting us out. it is looking like that pretty fast now. for knowing how to control changing. some times differnt ones write and erase the others posts so it is there thinking, then a differnt one comes again changes it again. how it is for reading posts to. they all read one post differnt and change what it means. not any bodys fault here. not our fault. we just need help with it.

we know poeple here are safe. we all know that. ok. and we lik how you all accepted us. we feel very accepted here. and we aren't thinking any body is trying to hurt us. our I person is frustrated because her head is not how it used to be and we hope people will pray for her and us for the sound mind thing. she thought she was ready for being here. we had lots of help from Doug this last year and he is a real nice person for helping us learn how God is accepting us. and helping us learn about how abuse was abuse in our life. we are very thankful for meeting him. we should say we are happy he is letting God use him for helping us.

well anyways, we might stop by and just say hi some times. we can post more if we are able to handle reading the words. thank again guys. us ninas.

[Leslie]

. . . . if that is ok with you? :) take care. us ninas

Okay, Ninas. Thanks.

I ditto what Jerry said.

Please do what you have to do for you, but know that we will miss you if you decide to take a break from here. I have enjoyed meeting you and appreciate that you are here..
Blessings,
Leslie

[Jerry]

Dear Ninas,,,
www.christiansurvivors.com is a place where the littles can post too,lots of nice people there you will all have fun :D
Love Jerry
P.S. The admin there will give you all the help you need.

[ninaspirit]

Thanks Jerry and Leslie - we are going to try that forum.

later. ninas.

[Janice]

(((((((((((((((Ninas)))))))))))

So sorry to see you go! Will be praying for all of you.

[Willow]

(((((ninas)))))

It's been such a pleasure having you here.
Come back when you can.

Amy

[Carmen]

Congratulations for noticing before you were over your head. Of course God gets the glory, but nothing wrong with a pat on the back that smelled smoke and got out. That is essentially what happened to me too. Makes feel good I am not the only who left his group that way. :)

I don't credit myself at all for it, I was disgusted with myself, I knew I was behaving like an ***hole and completely unnatural because of that sort of teaching. Most of it came through the television, TBN, the rest was reinforced in an independent .... church that is not too hard to get to from where I live. God just had to give me a nudge, he led me to Tricia Tillin's discernment site among others. I had learned to misinterpret Scripture systematically, so there was not much help there. At Tillin's site He forced me to see the truth. At first I did not want to believe it, but there it was. God didn't let me get away from acknowledging that I had been deceived, and I'm so thankful that my Good Shepherd came and led me back in the right direction. I threw away lots of notes and books (wish I had kept them now for research). I had to re-learn how to read Scripture. How te-di-ous, but at least I was free from that crap.

How did you "smell smoke"?

[SpinningHead]

(((((((((ninas)))))))))))

Do be sure to stop in and say hello from time to time. I would like to know how you all are doing. :)

[ex-shep]

I don't credit myself at all for it, I was disgusted with myself, I knew I was behaving like an ***hole and completely unnatural because of that sort of teaching. How did you "smell smoke"?

I remember beating myself up to when I first got out. Hey I was decieved. I did not know. It was not my fault. What I can do is use my experience strength and hope to help others.

In retrospect I did feel an inner discomfort in the bible school because something deep down did not feel right. I can relate to the yuckiness. It is a pharmacological high which brings one back for more.

I have to get ready to go out. The smell smoke analogy deserves a response. Bug me if I forget. Sometimes the original post or where the question first came up gets burried.