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leesiebella

11-02-2005, 05:48 PM

Joseph

11-02-2005, 06:54 PM

As I understand, the word "anoint" is an application of something like oil, to signify a blessing from God for a special purpose. The other is an establishment of a Holy Position from God, Gods Annointed.
The Verse you cited is also repeated in Psalm 105:15, in the Verses prior to these in both books it's posed as a warning to the Kings, not to mess with His people spreading the Gospel.
In the New Testament, as far as I can see and correct me if I'm wrong, the word anoint, anointed, and anointing is only used in a positive way, a Blessing or for healing. No threats, just love.

The pastors that hold that over their congregation read it like this,

"Do not touch the self anointed ones, and do my elders no harm".

When I started seeing abuse directed at my friends & I, that phrase became powerless out of their mouths. These people without losing a minutes sleep, use Gods name to fullfill there personal agenda's.
I can't stand the way they whip out twisted Scripture from the Old Testament when it's convenient to whip everybody back into shape.

I used to wrestle with this one too,
Joe

Hope 98

11-02-2005, 08:08 PM

I'm not sure I know what it does mean. I am certain of what it doesn't mean.

It does not mean "Now that I have elevated myself as a spiritual authority and proclaimed myself to be a prophet, you may not find fault with me!"

How do I know that? Because the new testament talks about teachers being held doubly accountable for their errors, and Jesus made a really big deal out of those who "cause little ones to stumble".

Oh - and there's that speech at the Last Supper about how leaders among the gentiles lord it over people, but "it is not to be so with you".

I know I'm using very loose paraphrases, but these passages should be every bit as familiar to any Christian - if not more so - than "Touch not Mine Anointed". Seriously - what happened to most of the old testament prophets? I think that most of them were killed. I know Jesus told a parable to that effect.

I'm sorry if I sound flippant - I'm feeling kinda cranky.

Jerry

11-02-2005, 11:03 PM

It is profetic referance to the two whitnesses of Rev 11 verses 1-6. Christ is the only other "Annointed One". There are no devinly annointed people on earth at this time.These Pastors and self appointed Prophets that claim a devine or Holy Spirit annointing are either "Anti Christs" or idiots.
Love Jerry

Jerry

11-02-2005, 11:24 PM

OOps,,,,,,,made a mistake,,,,,,,,,,,King David was Annointed at devine direction.With this addition I'll stand on my previous post :o
Love Jerry

ex-shep

11-02-2005, 11:55 PM

Touch not the Lord's anointed...

"Do not touch My anointed ones, And do my prophets no harm."
1 Chronicles 16:23

Taken out of context, of course.

What do you think this means....interpretations?

This has been used on me too many times.:confused:

leesiebella

I will have to grab a commentary and take a look at it. What makes this scripture in context a hard one is it is only a parenthetical statement with no references to the preceeding or following verses. It seems to enigmatically stand alone. Excellent question though, especially this scripture has been twisted so many times one could open a chain of pretzel shops. :)

baldguy

11-03-2005, 12:01 AM

If you read it in context written to the hethen kings in the land that the Children of Israel were wondering through. He was saying to those kings don't mess with my kids. Don't mess with the Children of Isael. We are all Spiritual Israel. So abusive Pastor, Don't mess with Me or Leesiebella cause we are the Lord's anointed!!!!!!!!!!! Whatcha think about them apples?????

See ya.

Bald Guy

leesiebella

11-03-2005, 12:07 AM

OOPS! Sorry for the misquote....

1 Chronicles 16:22...

leesiebella

leesiebella

11-03-2005, 12:28 AM

Okay,

So what we're saying here is this....

We are the "Lord's Anointed"...all Christians...you and I...

God doesn't want harsh/oppresive "kings" to harm us or "touch us"....

So really, what has happened here is "they" have turned it around and made me into the "bad king"?

So I'm a king now....My Pastor is the ONLY chosen one of Israel, the "Lord's Anointed".

The warning is to the heathen kings...I'm a heathen king.
My Pastor is the Anointed One.

On what basis do they turn it around? Where are the grounds? How does it make sense to turn it around on me??

Why am I to blame??? Isn't it clear it is the OTHER WAY AROUND??

EVIL LEADERS DON'T OPPRESS MY PEOPLE! (Don't hurt and abuse the body of Christ)

Who officially made the decision that the interpretation has to do with the leader being the anointed one and not the king? Seems like this should be obvious???

Am I missing something?

Everywhere I've been this has been the interpretation....honestly, this is all news to me... never heard that I was anointed.

I guess it's my fault for not finding that out myself. Well, guess I just did! Progress.

leesiebella

Janice

11-03-2005, 12:52 AM

[QUOTE=leesiebella][SIZE="4"]Okay,

So what we're saying here is this....

We are the "Lord's Anointed"...all Christians...you and I...

[COLOR="SeaGreen"]This was my exact thought as I started reading. I was going to say the same thing but you said it for me.

jane

11-03-2005, 02:11 AM

This was my exact thought as I started reading. I was going to say the same thing but you said it for me.

ditto.

1) because Jesus tells us to question the teachers and leaders that will come after him, so it is ok to question things. In fact, He himself had no problems answering quesitons and doubt (thomas).

2)because it also says in the new testament that He will pour out His spirit and annointing upon His People....

3)Jesus talks about in the kingdom of Heaven the first will be last and the last will be first- so this positional heirarchy that we have here is nothing more than a human tower of babel.......

So, yes, in essence they are harming the hairs of the head of His annointed one...you!

jane

Voyager

11-03-2005, 02:45 AM

Touch not the Lord's anointed...

What do you think this means....interpretations?
Let me break out my trusty Christianese translator... okay here it is on page 13...

"Touch not mine anointed"

Means: Do what I say without questioning.

:cool:

Carmen

11-03-2005, 03:44 AM

I agree with Joseph and Jerry. The verse is misused to keep us from openly criticizing the self-appointed apostles and prophets in today's five-fold ministry churches.

Another thing, in the OT prophets were allowed to be killed if a prophecy was false, proving that they were not from God. "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That Prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:21,22. Verse 20 says, "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." If they whip out 1 Chronicles 16:22, I like to keep that one handy in the back of my head. I have not seen a flashy so-called "prophet" yet whose every prophecy has come true. If you notice, they spend a lot of time trying to get the next "wave" of the "Spirit" always getting new gimmicks up to keep people from dwelling on the last prophecy that did not come true.

Jesus warns us about them more than once and there are many places in the letters that we are warned about false prophets and false apostles.

Joseph

11-03-2005, 06:20 AM

This was a great topic Leesibella, thanks for bringing it up.
Everybody is right on target.

I don't know if you use any Bible study sites but this one is quick and easy.
www.biblegateway.com

Joe

SpinningHead

11-03-2005, 07:58 AM

gwen

11-03-2005, 08:20 AM

I just had this thought...a little humorous actually...my family has been told many times that we have an anointing on our music! I've never thought to say this before, but oh, how I would love to say to our former "pastor", "Touch not my anointed!" :D :D :D

Voyager, I love your Christianese translator! That's great! Where can I get a copy? :D :D :D

I just looked the scripture up in the New Living Translation and here's what it says, "Do not touch my chosen people, and do not hurt my prophets."

Gwen

Jerry

11-03-2005, 09:00 AM

I will have to grab a commentary and take a look at it. What makes this scripture in context a hard one is it is only a parenthetical statement with no references to the preceeding or following verses. It seems to enigmatically stand alone. Excellent question though, especially this scripture has been twisted so many times one could open a chain of pretzel shops. :)
Dear ExShep,,,,
Exactly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Good post :D
Love Jerry

ex-shep

11-03-2005, 10:34 AM

I think it's quite presumptuous of a pastor to speak as though HE/SHE is the only one possible who could be "annointed" in a body of believers. Aren't we all equally the children of God? Aren't we all saved by grace? Didn't Jesus die for all our sins equally? Where in the Bible does it say a pastor is more annointed than any other believer? When a pastor says or declares that he/she is "annointed" as if no one else is...I ask, "says who? and where?"... We might have our different spiritual gifts but I never read that one gift is more annointed than another gift. Doesn't sound very humble to me...no thanks. I'll pass.

I have not researched the movements which subscribe to this verse out of context. There are several shepherding spin offs who felt they were responsible for bringing the Second Coming. The leader felt they had a special call to hasten it. Problem is the Lord will come when He is good and ready. I could go into the movements, but the post would be so exhaustive and exhausting that one would have a serious need for Dramamine. So that is the short version. Hope that helps.

ex-shep

11-03-2005, 10:36 AM

[QUOTE=ex-shep]I have not researched the movements which subscribe to this verse out of context.

should read "have not researched in years" [say like 15-20] I can find links if it would help and not overwhelm one in recovery.

SpinningHead

11-03-2005, 11:18 AM

I have not researched the movements which subscribe to this verse out of context. There are several shepherding spin offs who felt they were responsible for bringing the Second Coming. The leader felt they had a special call to hasten it. Problem is the Lord will come when He is good and ready. I could go into the movements, but the post would be so exhaustive and exhausting that one would have a serious need for Dramamine. So that is the short version. Hope that helps.

See....you get my question. When you write, "The leader felt they had a special call to hasten it"...I automatically say, "where in the Bible does it say anybody in a certain position gets a "special call" to hasten anything?" and all I'm saying is I'm open to someone showing me (and not just a verse here and there...c'mon! a little credit please!)

In one of the cult qualifications Dearest Sweet Gwen has been listing, one of them is (help me out here Gwen) when a leaders is the only one who can "hear God" or "has a special calling" or something spiritual that sets them appart from everyone else so therefore everyone else must heed to their teachings. And when I'm faced w/ that...I question the same question..."how is it you got a special calling? and where in the Bible can you honestly say that some people get more "special" calling than others?"... Hmmmm....??? Buddy, you're preaching above and beyond the Bible so I gotta say...BUB-BYE! :cool:

For me...it's that inner quest for straight forward resource/reference. Like I said in another post on another thread...Christian mean Christ Like...not pastor-like or church-like. I'm not interested in a pastor's spin on anything (that's what the Right-Wing is for! :eek: OH! SO KIDDING PEOPLE!...anyways...) ...If he's not reading it out of the Bible and preaching from the word...I'm outta here!

<<Warning: Tangeant Ahead>>
When I first started attending our church, my notes were filled w/ 2 pages of Bible passages, references, cross references and examinations. Good life questioning, spiritual growth kind of stuff...the stuff a Sunday afternoon conversation is made of! At the end of our stay, my notes quoted maybe 2 verses and a whole lot of pastor's thoughts, opinions, & lots of behavor-modification sermons.

Back to my famous Question...

Q: I need this?? :eek:
A: I don't need this!

aslan903

11-07-2005, 10:06 AM

I concur with leesiebella. 'Christ' means anointed one. 'Christian' means anointed ones. We are all anointed by God. This is why, I believe, Paul said, 'Speak evil of no man'. Why? Because they are all potentially anointed ones.

I'd like to throw this out here. Something I read recently. 'Religion is a practice that actually alienates you from God and makes itself the answer to ever getting back to God'. Think about it.

This presupposes that you fully understand that religion does not equal Jesus. My relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with religion.

ex-shep

11-07-2005, 11:38 AM

Back to my famous Question...

Q: I need this?? :eek:
A: I don't need this![/QUOTE]

I only had time to skim the post. Work awaits. It is a thought provoking post. I will see if I can get time to read in detail.

ex-shep

11-07-2005, 11:42 AM

I only had time to skim the post. Work awaits. It is a thought provoking post. I will see if I can get time to read in detail.[/QUOTE]

Printed it to read at work. I want to ponder the responses.

Carmen

11-08-2005, 03:19 AM

May trigger, this contains the "J" word.

I agree with you Aslan about religion.

But I think that it may be necessary to speak out against some kinds of teaching, and that doing so is not speaking evil of someone. What is speaking evil of someone? I think that this would entail slander, speaking lies about someone. But speaking the truth would be permitted. Paul did encourage judgement of a particular type.

We as Christians do not have the authority to judge whether someone is born-again or not, but we can observe his actions and decide whether that person is doing right or wrong, indeed Paul exhorts us to. In 1 Corinthians 4:3 he says,

“I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.”

Here he is talking about judgment of the soul. Why do I think this? Because he goes on about a different form of judgment in chaper 6:1-3.

“If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!”

This is a different type of judgment that we are permitted to exercise, even while here on this earth. This is the judgment of actions, words or doctrines, not souls.

1 Chronicles 16:22 is often used by the very ones that preach false doctrine or do very questionable things to justify what they are doing and silence criticism. But if someone uses that statement about himself or a favorite preacher he is loyal to, that just makes me more interested to find out what they are trying to cover up in the first place. Originally God is the one that uttered the statement, no man ever did about himself or others. Also, it was used concerning the Jews while they were still under God's favor.

It may still be able to be applied to Christians, but it is no guarantee for bodily protection or protection from criticism as it was for the Jews before. If it can be applied to Christians at all it is only for the protection of the soul. Jesus' statements altered the meaning.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:11.

Romans 8:34-39 also applies, here is verse 36, "As it is written (Ps. 44:22): 'For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.'"

God will not lose favor with us as he did with the Jews, but even martyrdom may be required of some of us, like it was for Paul. Persecution and slander will be directed toward us if we tell others the gospel and insist on the truth of Jesus Christ in our churches rather than being satisfied with lies and half-truths. The sad thing is that sometimes the slander and persecution come from those that call themselves our brothers, sometimes those that have positions of "authority," that is when spiritual abuse can happen.

mirror

11-08-2005, 07:30 PM

Touch not the Lord's anointed...

"Do not touch My anointed ones, And do my prophets no harm."
1 Chronicles 16:23

Taken out of context, of course.

What do you think this means....interpretations?

This has been used on me too many times.:confused:

leesiebella
In Chronicles, David said it about King Saul, who was annointed by Samuel. Later, it's used in Psalms to refer to God's people - Israel. I'd say if used in today's situations, it refers to all Christians. No pastor is more annointed than a parishioner! Check out 1 Cor 12! All are equal, all are given a gift to be used for the good of everyone. Christ is the only Head!

Ken Blue addresses this issue in his book "Healing Spiritual Abuse".

Meg Evenstar

11-13-2005, 09:01 PM

Jerry

11-14-2005, 06:42 AM

This was used against many of us at CP when re resisted what was being done. It brought lots of confusion to me, but now I realise it was a weapon used against those who would not buckle.

Meg
Dear Meg,,,
I don't question for 1 second that they are annointed,,,,,,,what I question is the "Spirit" that did the annointing ;)
Love Jerry