continued monitoring of posts

[Leslie]

Last night at marriage counseling my husband revealed to the counselor that unknown to me he'd kept monitoring my posts. Somehow he interpreted my questions and concerns (posted in the thread "SA and abusive parenting") about the child discipline practices encouraged by his pastor as "calling all of them at church child abusers". I think my posts show that I'm trying to be cautious in calling things abuse, and trying to define abuse legally.

So it was another example of his misrepresentations that cast me in a certain light that I don't think is accurate. He then told the counselor he'd send him a link to the forum. Hey, it's a public forum, but if I thought my scenario could be tied to the specific people involved, my bio would have been more general to assure the anonymity of all involved in my situation.

I think it is wrong to misrepresent me and my posts. He couldn't even apologize to me later for doing that. He assumes that I lack integrity, that I have misrepresented things here. I have more integrity than that All I described were behaviors that can be substantiated.

So my concern about his monitoring me bore out.

Can you persuade someone who has made up their opinion about you otherwise? I think you can't if the person isn't open to humbly looking at the evidence. While he might believe differently now, even at the start of our marriage his assessments of me were based on his assumptions, not really on me or my behavior. How can I disprove that I was deplorably raised or demonstrate that I have inner beauty if he wants to define such things unattainably? I don't think people should have to prove their worth or merits. I think it is a Law-orientation. He seems unable to really evaluate his assertions about me. By his metrics, I may lack inner beauty. Why does he get to define it? Last night he told the counselor that my "problems" at church and with his parents (I feel isolated in these groups) are "problems of her own making".

I'm really getting discouraged about this because of the requisite empathy for a good relationship doesn't seem to be possible.

[SpinningHead]

Leslie dear...

I feel so bad for you...that you and hubby aren't united in this.

FWIW...and I'm no psycho-analyst... from what you write about your hubby's reactions...it sounds like your hubster is threatened that you found a safe place to have a voice of your own. I would guess he's also threatened b/c you've found a safe place that he can't control what you say in...I think he has extremely low self esteem. You are finding validation and support here...that you're not getting from him! And that probably scares him that a) you emotionally need that and b) he's incapable of providing that for you for whatever his reasons may be.

Honestly...so WHAT what you write? So WHAT if you question some things in your life and spiritual life? Isn't that what this journey is supposed to be about? questioning things and finding answers?

I hope your therapist DOES find this forum and I hope he researches all the resource books we've listed here! I hope this turns him/her on to a whole new field! I hope he/she realizes that these controlling churches are breaking up marriages! hurting children! and hurting those that they "supposedly" care for! (Counselor! Are you there? Are you getting this?? Leslie is hurting!! Are we coming through loud and clear??? SHE'S HURTING and HURTING BADLY!!! A CHURCH IS COMING BETWEEN A MARRIED COUPLE...DO YOU THINK THAT'S OK??)

Leslie, you don't have to prove anything to anyone. You just be your sweet inquisitive self and if you're hubby can't see all the beautiful sincere things we see in you (errr...read in you), then you shouldn't have to change so he gets it...have confidence in yourself, know your intentions and live your life making the best decisions you can based on the information available to you. Carry yourself w/ dignity, stick to the facts and let other's reactions be their burdons and not yours.

Again...FWIW.
:o

[Willow]

YIKES! What hubby did is like reading your diary!

[gwen]

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

SpinningHead brought out some EXCELLENT points!

And I agree with Willow...that is like reading your diary!

[Jerry]

Dear Leslie,,,
The only comments I have,,,,,,,,,,you don't want to hear :(
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Sorry to hear that Hubby is spying on you Leslie! :(

What I have to say about that is so uncouth that it cannot be printed. :mad:

Carmen

[jane]

Leslie-

I know that I mentioned before that I feel your relationship is abusive.

I can only say that I still feel that way.

regarding this: Why does he get to define it? ; he only gets to define it as long as you allow it.


You are a very educated woman, that comes acrossed in all of your posts. You seek honest answers for real questions.

educated women are still victims of spousal abuse.

Again, I encourage you to seek a counselor of your own, most battered women shelters have free counselors.

I am not telling you to leave him, I am simply telling you my opinion of what you describe.

A husband, wife, mother, friend or sister who uses a place where you express yourself to control and hurt you is acting very dangerously to your well being.

The people here don't want to swear or be honest because they are angry that you are enduring horrific conditions...and they care.

so do I.


I also hope that as the counselor reads this site, some light would be shed on the situation- both to you personally and to the abusive controlling church.

peace to you and love,

jane

[gwen]

The people here don't want to swear or be honest because they are angry that you are enduring horrific conditions...and they care.



Dear Leslie,

I feel the same way as Jane...I'm thankful for her openness with you. And the statement above is true for me. I am angry that you are enduring these horrific conditions...and YES I do care!

Please take Jane's suggestions...

Love, Gwen

[Leslie]

Thanks, everyone. I did start counseling not long ago with a woman who's familiar with these themes. I'm also trying to work through the theological problems with a Christian counselor.

I think he's free to define me any way he wants, though I don't have to accept his opinion. I can't force him to see me positively, to value traits he devalues, any more than he can control my values. So he'll continue interpreting me according to his a-priori judgments and motive reading. My behavior doesn't change his core opinion.

When reminding him of the boundaries and asking him to please stop doesn't work and I then (maybe twice) used words like "harassing me", he thinks I'm being abusive.

That's one thing I don't get about marrige counseling. Third parties, such as authors, are able to call abusive behavior "abusive", to characterize and name things like parenting style ("authoritative, permissive"), approach to emotions ("emotion punishing/dismissing/accepting"). They give examples of this stuff. But when a spouse does something like this in counseling about their spouse, even cautiously and respectfully, it is considered "being in the other's inventory". I don't feel that my understanding of his parenting appraoch is an unfounded judgment. I don't think that it's the same as the prejudicial assessments about someone based on guessing at their motives. One is speculative, one is behavioral. Calling crying a "ballbably act" is "emotion-punishing". I don't think it's necessarily abusive to suggest this, though anything can be said abusively. I can see how it might cause the person to feel defensive, but I don't understand why we can scarcely discuss the real issues in counseling.

I've read that there's a difference between abuse which is designed to denigrate and control and the responses of a person expressing their displesure with that. That said, I do try, and feel I usualy succeed, at being respectful.

Well, many thanks for your thughts and care. I think there's an objectivity that people removed from the situation can have, assuming that I've represented things accurately.

Thanks much, :)
~L

[leesiebella]

Sorry for being insensitive.......but.....


HEY JERKY HUSBAND! MIND YOUR BUSINESS! GIVE YOUR PRECIOUS SOME SPACE!!!

YOU GET TO TALK TO THE COUNSELOR... SHE GETS TO TALK TO US!!!!

HEY COUNSELOR!!! WAKE UP AND GET EDUCATED!!!!

Nanny nanny boo boo I SEE YOU!!!!!

:eek: leesiebella

[Janice]

Sorry for being insensitive.......but.....


HEY JERKY HUSBAND! MIND YOUR BUSINESS! GIVE YOUR PRECIOUS SOME SPACE!!!

YOU GET TO TALK TO THE COUNSELOR... SHE GETS TO TALK TO US!!!!

HEY COUNSELOR!!! WAKE UP AND GET EDUCATED!!!!

Nanny nanny boo boo I SEE YOU!!!!!

:eek: leesiebella



OMG How I needed that! ;)

[Jerry]

It's not Christian Counceling,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,It's Obedience School :(
Love Jerry

[SpinningHead]

I don't understand why we can scarcely discuss the real issues in counseling.

I've read that there's a difference between abuse which is designed to denigrate and control and the responses of a person expressing their displesure with that. That said, I do try, and feel I usualy succeed, at being respectful.



Leslie, in another thread I wrote: (I totally recommend this book for you!)

I have another book to recommend...I, personally would like it to be added to our list of resources.

Crucial Conversations by
Kerry Patterson,Joseph Grenny,Ron McMillan,Al Switzler,Stephen R. Covey

http://www.vitalsmarts.com/CrucialSkills/

This book was extremely helpful in recognizing conversation patterns and identifying my own patterns vs. others. Once I started recognizing things like fear, control, and bullying in other's conversations...my conversation pattern changed dramatically. It was extremely helpful towards the end of my church situation...I only regret I didn't read it before it all happened. It helps me to this day in talking about my situation w/ those who call me.

It was truly amazing in using the skills this book presents when talking to others about what we went through...especially in helping me identify when someone else in the conversation goes into (what the book identified as) "silence" or "violence".

The biggest thing it did for me is help me NOT to defend myself or hubby's self in our situation, keep the focus on the facts of what went on and NOT allow myself to get drawn into defending how I'm responsible for (what another thread identified as) "outcast behavior".

I seriously, seriously recommend anyone and everyone to read this book! I won't be surprised when you do you'll think of past church s/a conversations and identify a new pattern in the speech that was used. You'll look at people in a different way and see yourself as not being the victim like you used to be...b/c it provides you tools, insights, and a foundation to call the behavior for what it is and not what the person is attempting to distract you with.

For you readers out there...please read this book and tell me different! It really made my head spin!
__________________

[butterfly]

Leslie, I have tryed three times to post you a reply.
I hope this will go thru I have been having trouble with posting.
I will make this short. I agree with everone here. Does your husband act this way all the time? Or has he been this way since going to that church? butterfly [shirley]

[mstar]

I am so sorry Leslie. will be in prayer.

[Leslie]

Does your husband act this way all the time? Or has he been this way since going to that church? butterfly [shirley]

butterfly,
I think he's always thought that as the "head" he gets to make most of the big decisions. He does not control the little things in my life or act possessive. But he has used words lie "boss" and "his money" to argue for his preeminence in decision making. The first month of our marriage he was going to give our financial info to my brother, who married us, to "work up a budget for us"! I was very upset. He makes the financial decisions, the decisions about when we can or can't move to a more functional house, what activities the kids can be in, etc. He can be easygoing about smaller things. NY Day last year, before he left me, he cut my household allowance into a weekly disbursement which limits my freedom to a degree. The unilateral decision process saddens me because I always looked forward to the partnership of making decisions together. Is that what you were asking about? So, I dont think the original problem was the church. I think he found a church with views on authority that are consistent with his.

Thanks, ALL, for the words of encouragement. :)
SpinningHead, the book sounds very helpful. Thanks for the referral.

[Leslie]

Also, I feel I am respectful when I weigh in on decisions. I usually add my part for him to consider in the decision making. If it's about our son and done in front of him, he often thinks I'm "contramanding" him in front of our son.

He believes that I want to be the authority. I think this is an example of letting his ideology cloud his take on me. Since Genesis says the woman's desire will be for her husband (to rule over him), he concludes this must be true in my particular case.

[SpinningHead]

Also, I feel I am respectful when I weigh in on decisions. I usually add my part for him to consider in the decision making. If it's about our son and done in front of him, he often thinks I'm "contramanding" him in front of our son.

He believes that I want to be the authority. I think this is an example of letting his ideology cloud his take on me. Since Genesis says the woman's desire will be for her husband (to rule over him), he concludes this must be true in my particular case.


Referencing Ephesians 5 thread...
you don't sound like you're feeling very holy these days.

If your hubby is dictating your money and determining what it is you want just because you're attempting to discuss some personal household/marriage things...He has no clue what Christ did for His church! Girlfriend...you hang in there and find your voice! I do believe we teach people how to treat us (I know, people are cracking their knuckles getting ready to respond to that one) and you seem like you're coming to terms w/ some serious crap that you're not going to take anymore! Find your voice and find it loud! Do you want your son to learn from his father that it's ok to treat a wife this way? Of course not! This has got to be bothering your son as well....

What do you need? You tell us! Come over to New England and we'll get that Starbucks coffee!

(((((((((Leslie!))))))))))))))


<<<counselor...are you getting this stuff????>>>>

[gwen]

butterfly,
But he has used words lie "boss" and "his money" to argue for his preeminence in decision making.

The unilateral decision process saddens me because I always looked forward to the partnership of making decisions together.

Did he make a wedding vow to you? In our wedding vows my husband said, "All my worldly goods I thee endow." It's my understanding that unless there is a prenuptial agreement made about a person's finances, that when a man and woman get married, then their assets become joint. Even the government recognizes that. The way I see it, from what you've shared here, that money is another way that your husband controls you. My "take" on marriage is this: a marriage should be a partnership, a team working together for the good of the family, not one person lording over the other.

[jane]

I don't feel that my understanding of his parenting appraoch is an unfounded judgment. I don't think that it's the same as the prejudicial assessments about someone based on guessing at their motives. One is speculative, one is behavioral. Calling crying a "ballbably act" is "emotion-punishing". I don't think it's necessarily abusive to suggest this, though anything can be said abusively. I can see how it might cause the person to feel defensive, but I don't understand why we can scarcely discuss the real issues in counseling.

I am having a hard time understanding. I was at a conference all day so forgive me my lack of brain energy.

Are you saying that he called your crying a ballbaby act is not emotionally abusive?

jane

[Satscout]

I am having a hard time understanding. I was at a conference all day so forgive me my lack of brain energy.

Are you saying that he called your crying a ballbaby act is not emotionally abusive?

jane

I think she said that he and/or the counselor suggested that her bringing up the issue (that he called her crying a ballbaby act) was emotionally abusive to HIM and considered "being in his inventory".

Sounds to me like this "counselor" is so toxic, they need to get away if they wish to save the marriage. :mad: :(

Please, for your sanity's sake, find a counselor who CAN discuss the real issues! If you can't find a marriage counselor who can work with you BOTH and not just take his side over everything, at least seek out a counselor personally for YOU to give you some advice. It sounds to me like this "husband" is a danger to you.:( :( :( :mad: :mad: :mad:

[mstar]

"I can see how it might cause the person to feel defensive, but I don't understand why we can scarcely discuss the real issues in counseling. "

Maybe this is the sick goal. . . to wade in with accusations that put you on the defensive, hoping to turn your focus inward, and no longer on the relationsip issues you had came to discuss. . . issues that maybe hubby does not want to address because of guilt, not wanting to or fearing change, ect., thereby losing power.

This is similar to a power game my pastor would play. . . you would come to church to enjoy the Lord, to fellowship, to hear a message, ect. that we are encouraged in God's Word to wisely judge spiritualy. As soon as you are settled in your pew, pastor hits with the "Surley you are in sin, so let me throw some mud on you and see what sticks" message. This causes the reaction of looking inward for "what you did", turning your focus, not on what is going around, but on you, busy wading through the false guilt, then struggling to defend yourself.

The result is pastor and his sick system has not been detected nor addressed, thereby it can continue. It would take me weeks to pull out of the "guilt" and look around at what's going on.

Will be in prayer, Leslie. God is your defender and He doesn't like "power games". He is on your side.

[Leslie]

Okay, first, big thank yous to ALL for your concern, thoughts, and prayers.

Spinning, your right that I'm finding my voice, but, do believe me, I've known the treatment was way-wrong from the getgo. Several things are responsible for the treatment continuing. But first I should say that while the themes are the same, the man is often aware of some sins, and does usually repent for those he acknowledges. There's been improvement over the years. That said, the themes of control have continued because:

a--initially I thought I could persuade him. That was before I understood how ideologically entrenched his views are.

b--practically speaking, I don't have the power to consequate his behavior in any way that will get through to him. He's basically impervious to anything I'd try to do. Assertiveness on my part (boundaries, warnings, etc.) are interpreted very unfavorably and make me lose all the more credibility and minimize my influence. Assertiveness, the way I've usually done it, backfires.

c--I'm constrained by my own notions of propriety in terms of what I can do to consequate his behavior. I do want to be godly.

d--there's been no one who will lean on him to encourage a less controlling approach. The people who are credible to him hold his views.

e--my whole approach to these issues is requiring a paradigm shift, as my circles of evangelicalism enabled control. Paradigm shifts are hard.

Everyone's points are good. The discussion helps me process.

Jane, I was totally garbled and unclear, that's why you didn't understand me! :o Here's what I meant, long version: The counselor wants us each to focus on our issues, not point fingers at the other's. He thinks that to make judgments about the other is wrong, or at least, unhelpful. He seems to equate the kinds of judgments my husband and I make of each other. This is where I disagree. My husband's judgments of me are usually based on misunderstanding me, exaggerating my view (straw men arguments) , assuming what I mean, what my motives are. Example. He thinks that asking for reassurance is demandng a compliment. He thinks earnest asking him to believe that my motive wasn't what he thought it was is "prosecuting" him. He wants to think I've mishandled the elders, while I think I've been biblically above reproach. You get my point. That's his style of judgments. They're not based on anything I do, but on his assumptions of who I am, what my motives are. Intuitively it felt like violating my psychological boundary, but I didn't know this terminology. The kinds of judgments I make of him are based on fact. I see that he generally has an emotion-punishing approach to some feelings: He has said the children's crying is a "ballbaby act" or that mine used to be "manipulative". So to conclude that he punishes emotions is just a description of what he does. I conclude that he is authoritarian, based on how he uses authority. In counseling I have used these words, and sometimes called these things "mean" or "wrong". Somehow the counselor equates my style of judging and his. So counseling doesn't really allow us to look at the issues like the authoritarianism, the whatever. To do that is to judge. We're just supposed to focus on what we can change. I really don't know what I'm supposed to change. I should improve my time managment. (Is that clearer?)

Gwen, yes, the property is mutual legally speaking, but the paycheck seems to be his! I think it's a relic of generatins past.

Butterfly, the behavior comes and goes. I'm hoping there's an explanation for this, if you know what I mean.

Everyone, thanks for your concern. If I mentioned you by name I mght forget someone and offend. I'm still holding out hope that counseling will help. It's somewhat credible to him because it's loosely tied to his church, though husband points out it's not biblical or authoritative. I think I'll be able to learn effective strategies from several resources--albeit slowly.

cyberhugs of thanks,
~L

[Leslie]

Oh, a few more clarifications.
The counselor has called my husband on some things and I think he understands much of what's wrong there. And, thankfully, I'm confident that he believes in marriage as an equal partnership and respects women. It's not that he takes husband's side, it's that he equates us. I also don't agree with his notion that "people marry their emotional equals". Satscout, you clarified my point perfectly, though it was the kids' crying he called/s ballbaby act, which I think is worse than saying that to me, for several reasons.

mstar, about the mud slinging sermons. First of all, poor you and everyone there! Is that like asserting that people are guilty and wicked because the Bible says so generally, even though there's no proof that someone is guilty in a specific way? Don't they get that the HS convicts through His Word? They don't need to add offense to it by their angry judgmentalism. It violates a verse in one of the letters to the Corinthians about only the spirit of God knows the heart of a man.

Thanks again,
leslie

[SpinningHead]

I
Please, for your sanity's sake, find a counselor who CAN discuss the real issues! If you can't find a marriage counselor who can work with you BOTH and not just take his side over everything, at least seek out a counselor personally for YOU to give you some advice.

I think this is really, really, really good advice! Leslie, you absolutely need a complete safe environment to really sort out your own feelings! My sis-in-law did this while attempting marriage counseling and it was her life saver!!! For everything her hubby put her through (AND said in marriage counseling)...she had a safe place in her counselor's office to sort it out, find her own positions, gain her voice and stick to handling the issues w/ grace & dignity. She says to this day that she would have disappeared from the face of the earth & lost herself forever if it hadn't been for her counselor.