SA and abusive parenting

[Leslie]

Does anyone have experience in abusive churches with the church's encouragement of questionable parenting? At my husband's church, the authoritarianism of the church leadership is also found in the parenting style it encourages.

Some of my grievances:
(I might sound dispassionate here, but I'm not at all)
Selling rubber spanking implements (aka weapons) to parents
Encouraging their use "until the child submits to it" (I heard this second hand)
Speculating about the future outcome of some children to their parents, encouraging use of the implement.
Confusing immoral and amoral behaviors, applying the "rod" for things like earnest forgetting
Generally encouraging use of the implement without direct knowledge of the child's behavior
General punitive approach to behavior management
Child-unfriendly services that set the child up for 'failure' and 'correction'
Simplistic surmisings about causes of children's behavior

I'd be interestd in other people's experience.

[leesiebella]

OH MY GOD! Are you kidding me??? You are not a part of this 'fellowship' are you???

I want to say I 've heard of this before on some crazy sounding TBN show. Does it have some affiliation with Focus on the Family??? not sure

My OPINION is this...Children are a BLESSING, not a burden, although some would argue that.

I was recently "accused" of being "overprotective" with my children, by my pastor's wife. At first, I argued and said, "Yes, I have a very high standard for my children."

Later upon reflection, I'm thinking... this is crazy! As if I shouldn't be a protective mother of my 3 young children???

I should have said... "Thank you, that is a compliment!!"

Let me say this... I AM A GOOD MOTHER!! MY HUSBAND IS THE BEST FATHER!! We are not perfect, however, I love my children with everything that is in me. I want the absolute best for them! WHO DOESN'T???

I will not let a "system" or another person TELL me how to parent. If I need help, I will seek it. I read a lot, so I like to read books on the topic for help or ideas.

That whole thing of people telling you what to do... is abusive. Control in and of itself is abusive. People cannot control you....well, we should not allow ourselves to be controlled by another person.

Where do we find control in the bible? Maybe I should start a new thread...

[Jerry]

Dear Leslie,,,,
CALL THE POLICE These degenerant pieces of human garbadge belong in prison.
Love Jerry

[Janice]

YEA..WHAT JERRY SAID!!!

[Leslie]

I've tried the authorities and CPC doesn't do anything without beginning an investigation on a specific child. To do that, certain criteria must be met.

leesiebella, no, for reasons like this I can't join my husband's church. (He yanked us out of our church 2 years ago in favor of this place.) I don't trust the elders and their enamorment with their authority, husband authority, or how they've dealt with me as a nonmember when my husband left me and the kids for 2 months last winter. I believe that my not joining is viewed as insubmission.

I don't know how pervasive these child rearing practices are in this church. The pastor is relatively new there and many of the people seem more balanced. At a membership class, discerning that the pastor was a big spanking proponent, I tried to feel out his position on leaving marks on a child. (Criteria for investigating may vary by state; in ours, nontransitory marks get investigated.) He said, "That's easy. Obey God rather than man." I stated that God doesn't tell parents to mark up their kids and that to be Biblical parents would have to submit to the authorities God has placed over them for their (and their kids') protection. I don't think he had an answer to that. This was in the membership class. Months later, his public stance, recorded for listening audience, was to "never leave a mark".

Our marriage counselor, a mandatory child abuse reporter, is aware of much of this. His membership at the same church may be a conflict of interst, though I'm certain he is a principled man. Rest assured, I will go to the ends of the earth, should need ever arise, to do good to my children and protect them as needed.

[gwen]

Does anyone have experience in abusive churches with the church's encouragement of questionable parenting? At my husband's church, the authoritarianism of the church leadership is also found in the parenting style it encourages.

Some of my grievances:
(I might sound dispassionate here, but I'm not at all)
Selling rubber spanking implements (aka weapons) to parents
Encouraging their use "until the child submits to it" (I heard this second hand)
Speculating about the future outcome of some children to their parents, encouraging use of the implement.
Confusing immoral and amoral behaviors, applying the "rod" for things like earnest forgetting
Generally encouraging use of the implement without direct knowledge of the child's behavior
General punitive approach to behavior management
Child-unfriendly services that set the child up for 'failure' and 'correction'
Simplistic surmisings about causes of children's behavior

I'd be interestd in other people's experience.

Oh, yeah! We experienced these things too...except they didn't sell rubber spanking implements. There were many times that our former "pastor" told me that I needed to spank one of my sons. He would tell parents that the problem with our children was that we were too easy on them and didn't spank them enough. There was one boy who had some behavioral problems whose father wasn't "in the picture", that the "pastor" spanked during school (I was a witness as the school administrator.) I sat in on a meeting with a mother and daughter (the daughter was a student at the school) and the pastor. Again the father was not involved, the mother was having problems getting the daughter to get up in the morning to go to school and this is what the "pastor" told her. He said, "If she doesn't get up, you call me, and I'll be glad to come over and get her out of bed! I'll spank her! That'll get her moving!" Then he looked at the girl (who was around 13 or 14 at the time), "Yes, I'll do it! All your mother has to do is call me!" I guess the girl believed him because she started to make it to school on time after that. That family is still a part of the church!!!

Also, we would have lengthy sermons (1 1/2 to 2 hours long) after about an hour of praise and worship. The children were expected to sit quietly through that. We did have children's church scheduled, but most of the time the pastor would not dismiss the children for it because he wanted to adults who would be doing children's church to hear his message.

In an abusive church setting all are abused, even the children...

[leesiebella]

In an abusive church setting all are abused, even the children...


I agree with Gwen,

We have seen so much. Our abusive pastors don't even speak to their 3 grown children b/c they have not "repented". We have heard that these 3 children, who my husband grew up with, tell others in this church... their parents church that they are being brainwashed.

Okay, how sick is that? Their own children are telling people that they brainwash people!

I'd like to hear what baldguy thinks...he had a situation I think I read.

[SpinningHead]

Funny you started this thread...

Spent this past Saturday w/ mother and she told me that she didn't think my hubby would be a good father...why not? I said. (We don't have kids but are hoping that we'll be in a place to adopt someday). "B/c he would use all that phoney psychology crap on a kid instead of picking him up and slapping his A**!". I said, "that's exactly why he would be an excellent father! He'd do everything he could teach a child on their own level about right and wrong, actions and consequences." She looked at me horrified and said, "Do you believe in spanking?" and I said "No. I never learned anything b/c you threatened to spank me...all I learned was if I made you mad enough, you'd hit me." Then she went into that "spare the rod" stuff...which I said, yes the Bible says "rod of discipline"..."of discipline" is they key...your problem is you focused way too much on the "rod" and were to eager to use it when you did! But you didn't spend much time gently disciplining. When our heavenly Father disciplines us, do you think He picks us up where we are and spanks us? or does he gently bring us to a new place of understanding so that we can repent and change our ways?".

:eek:

Then she asked if I'd ever let my child be in her company if she felt she needed to spank him...I said that I believe if she can't have enough patience to be around my child w/out having this need to hit my child...then no, it would be best if she weren't alone w/ him. She asked me what I'd do if my child "sassed" me (a big one w/ her) and I said that I didn't have all the answers but I'd like to think my first reaction isn't to slap my child across the face for having a difference of opinion or being disrespectful...considering we can't slap a perfect stranger for "sassing" us, now can we?

:eek:

Why are we having this conversation? I dunno. But it was a good one to let her know that I didn't agree w/ how she disciplined me and used the Bible/church to justify it...I let her know I know why she did it, her intentions and motives (and that I forgive her for it) but I'm past that in my life and won't tolerate that same kind of thinking for me or my child's life. I said it was probably good to have this conversation so she can be mulling it over somewhere in her mind what kind of role she'd like in my adoptive child's life. Will she be spoiling over-nice kind grandma? or grumpy don't-get-too-close grandma?

[Katie]

I think you will find that people in church leadership who operate in authoritarianism, control, and shame-based relationships also reflect this in their marriages and parenting.

One of the best gifts you can give your children is discipline with love and grace.

[Leslie]

He would tell parents that the problem with our children was that we were too easy on them and didn't spank them enough.

Maddening! First of all, he probably only saw your kids in churchy settings where their behavior wasn't typical. Second, there are 100 things that influence kids' behavior. It is arrogance for an outsider to assume he has the scoop!

And spanking a 13 year old who wasn't his? Ish! That's just naughty.

[gwen]

It is arrogance for an outsider to assume he has the scoop!

And spanking a 13 year old who wasn't his? Ish! That's just naughty.

Oh, he thought he had the scoop on everything! And yes, he is very arrogant!!! :mad:

He does lots of things that are "naughty"!!!

Gwen

[Leslie]

I saw a website recently that put spanking of postpubescent chldren in the category of sexual abuse, which sounds accurate to me.

[gwen]

I saw a website recently that put spanking of postpubescent chldren in the category of sexual abuse, which sounds accurate to me.

Wow! I've never thought of that before. I have always believed that spanking is totally out of line in an older child, but I never recognized it as sexual abuse. BTW, with the girl that I mentioned in the earlier post, it was just a threat...as far as I know he never actually did it.

[Leslie]

The rationale for it being abusive, according to the proponents of this view, is that at that age the involvement of the bottom is confusing for the child. While I'd hold suspect the motives of anyone who spanks an adolescent, it's possible they don't mean it sexually. But that's irrelevant. The point is the confusion and possible effect on the adolescent.

[gwen]

It makes sense to me. I've always looked at it in a cognitive development way. By the time a child reaches puberty, their cognitive development has reached the level where reasoning begins. Spanking, I believe, at that point, is totally demeaning and counter-productive. There are definitely more effective ways to deal with older children. BTW, I personally think spanking should always be a last resort no matter what the age of the child is.

[jane]

OK sorry to be jumping in so late..........

First- your local CPC may not investigate on the case because there isn't a specific child.....however, if multiple anonymous phone calls or emails got to the comissioner or your governor, I'll bet there will be an investigation. Just because "the system" has a flaw in the way that they choose to investigate doesnt' mean that it shouldn't be reported and someone pushed to investigate OR change the policy of why they won't.

My advice, call once a week, email or send anonymous letters. My letter would say something about being terrified to report specific names due to the danger my life and children would be in. I would name SPECIFIC adult names, how much the spoon cost and the name of the single mother whose child was involved. She's still there because she's stuck.

Every state has different laws about spanking. In our state spanking with an instrument of any kind is illegal but spanking is legal. Check on line for your laws.


Spanking an adolescent girl who is not your child IS sexual abuse. period.
Sexual abuse is not about "turn on" it is about CONTROL. Whether it is rape or not. It is about CONTROLLING another person in any implied sexual way. Inneundos can be as damaging to a girl as actual penetration.
I have nothing more to say on that.


Slapping someone in the face is abuse. period.

Telling anyone how to parent is controlling and wrong.

You may spank or you may not spank, that is all up to you. I have done both. But when someone else is telling me what to do......it is wrong.

and no one is going to touch my children, whether it is my mother or mother in law and certainly not a pastor.


This thread hit a nerve with me. I saw some terrible parenting habits in the leadership of my church. I saw different standards for different families. I saw abusive things that weren't related to spanking- just favoring one child over a nother because of being related to the pastor- and other comments to children. Often I spoke up and found myself in arguments and was told that I was too sensitive.

jane

ps If calling your CPC doesn't work you really should contact the national child welfare league. Systematic child abuse is wrong and it should not go left not investigated. Those children will either grow up to be severly wounded or become part of the problem to the next generation. I don't want to tell anyone what to do but if you watched a church sell an instrument to its members and manipulate them to use this kind of punishment, then I believe that you have some level of responsiblity to speak on behalf of children who are unable to advocate for themselves. It is my opinion that you are already concerned enough about it that you brought it up here....that means it is pretty serious. Do what you can so that you can look in the mirror in the morning and like what you see.

[jane]

It makes sense to me. I've always looked at it in a cognitive development way. By the time a child reaches puberty, their cognitive development has reached the level where reasoning begins. Spanking, I believe, at that point, is totally demeaning and counter-productive. There are definitely more effective ways to deal with older children. BTW, I personally think spanking should always be a last resort no matter what the age of the child is.



I TOTALLY agree with this statement. I don't know how I feel about spanking at all but I have resorted to it with my 5 year old when he has put himself or others at risk. It was an immediate response of compliance which was needed. Still, I have felt guilty.

A teenager- well geezo, would you want me to spank you when I get mad at you? It is the BIG picture that I am after. I want my childen to trust me, confide in me and have a relationship with me. I want to treat them as I expect to be treated.

They are capable of reasoning and frankly, a spanking only last a few moments. Teaching a valuable lesson that develops character and the ability to think lasts a lifetime. It may take more patience and creativity on our part but finding a way to teach a teen a natural consequence to inappropriate behavior is more productive.

Slapping for sassing? Interesting that my child is often "sassing" when I am raising my voice to him and he feels threatened. Do I deserve total respect just because I am the adult or is it behavior that is modeled? If I raise my voice to you, would you slap me in the face?

I find face slapping to be so humiliating and punitive that I just don't recommend it.

When my teenager raised his voice at me, I ignore him. When he continues to talk to me I say, "In case you haven't noticed, my ears don't work when you are yelling". If he talks to me, I respond. If he doesn't, I continue to ignore him.

LATER when he is not agitated, I state, "I will not be treated in that tone, period."


enough said for now,
jane

[Willow]

This is very bad stuff Leslie! Can you bring attention to this to others in your community that may be able to diffuse this teaching? Newspaper articles... public awareness programs, etc? Or like Jerry says... REPORT THEM! Jerry... you have a way of cutting to the chase like no one else I know!

[Leslie]

Problem is, the insturments aren't illegal. I happened to mention this to a lawyer who did not suggest that the selling was illegal. CPC knows and didn't pressure me for more information. Two mandatory reporters in my family's sphere know, so I believe I am fulfilling my duty, as I see it so far. I don't think any further efforts on my part would go anywhere. But I will definitely consider what has been said.

Abuse is defined relative to the specific child and incident and I am unaware of incidents that I could act upon. Beleive me, if I suspected imminent harm, I would act preventatively, and so would the mandatory reporters in our life. I think that means there's nothing to act on now.

Thanks much for the perspectives. I'll give this some more thought.
Leslie