On Exposing Abusive Churches **Possible Triggers**

[mirror]

I took this quote out of another thread because I didn't want this conversation lost in another one.
I feel, when abuse is present, it needs to be exposed. In business, marriage, with children, with animals, etc. so why is church exempt? If it is exposed, it can be dealt with and change or protection can take place, subsequently healing can follow.

Joe
I fully agree, Joe, in theory... but who is to do the exposing? The abused? In most cases, they're already hurting so much that, like a child who has been raped, they're simply not strong enough to take that step, and in many cases, they accuse themselves even more for not taking that step to keep others from going through the same thing.

Abusive churches cause fear! People who attend are afraid of the consequences of exposing the abuse. People who left are usually still hurting and healing. Other churches in the neighborhood are afraid that if they step in to expose the abuse, they will look like it's a denominational disagreement and they will be made out to be a bully. Fear is a strong controller, which is why these people can get away with abuse for so long.

[profnachos]

Besides the church will whip out the persecution card faster than you can say persecution whenever they receive bad coverage.

What's more difficult is that most of the forms of abuse that Joe mentions are illegal. In business, harassment is illegal and can be subject to civil action, if not criminal. The same with animal, child, and even spousal abuse. Spiritual abuse is much more subtle as it is very difficult to define and pin down which is why abusers can get away with this and even flourish.

I took this quote out of another thread because I didn't want this conversation lost in another one.

I fully agree, Joe, in theory... but who is to do the exposing? The abused? In most cases, they're already hurting so much that, like a child who has been raped, they're simply not strong enough to take that step, and in many cases, they accuse themselves even more for not taking that step to keep others from going through the same thing.

Abusive churches cause fear! People who attend are afraid of the consequences of exposing the abuse. People who left are usually still hurting and healing. Other churches in the neighborhood are afraid that if they step in to expose the abuse, they will look like it's a denominational disagreement and they will be made out to be a bully. Fear is a strong controller, which is why these people can get away with abuse for so long.

[Joseph]

To Mirror & Profnachos,

Understood, I do agree with what you're saying, I even went and called the Attorney General in New York and contacted a friend in a government branch in Washington to see if anything could be done, and they said nothing could be done, there are no laws set up regarding churches, they had no idea this is happening.
I understand that everyone is not capable of exposing abuse and thats okay.

I have a nephew that was raped, about 5 years ago at 13 years old, he was forced into the woods at gunpoint, when he got free he came home and told us what had happened, we contacted the State Police and then the FBI and eventually caught him in Idaho and he was charged with raping 7 boys accross the country.
When I exposed my church, I did it with the help of others just like we caught the rapist, with the help of others. I was able to help 5 other people out personally and others left after we did on there own (I guess we got the ball rolling).

Please read this and honestly tell me if you think I'm understanding this wrong.
Joe

Ephesians 5- 6 thru 11

8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."

[ninaspirit]

Originally Posted by Joseph
I feel, when abuse is present, it needs to be exposed. In business, marriage, with children, with animals, etc. so why is church exempt? If it is exposed, it can be dealt with and change or protection can take place, subsequently healing can follow.


we responded to Joe's quote before we saw it was brought here.



If there is a time for every thing - there is a time for standing up to the abuser/s and a time for just walking away. we don't know that it has to be a certain way - except we know we have to stand up in order to walk away. :)

yes, abuse does have to be exposed so safety can be restored and healing can happen. It just isn't always looking the way we think it should.

having been in differnt abuse situations as victim, we've walked away some times, and some times exposed. we would say it has to be the victim/s own choice for deciding what they can deal with.

when, as a victim, we feel inside we don't have a choice (the voice says inside "we just have to..take action") because we know strongly in ourself about how something is, then we know it is our job and the Strength to do it will be there. we can encourage and invite others and be adamant for the cause and hopefully be supported. but we don't expect another person in a same situation to make a same choice if they aren't believing it is right for them for their own reasons. there is no shame in that.

nina

you are right churches are not exempt from being held accountable. it is like any other kind of abuse - even then it isn't always possible for proving or finding justice. but justice will happen.

[SpinningHead]

I think you're right in "exposing" them. We did...we said so at the time, we said so to those involved and we had several meetings with the leadership.

There. We exposed it.

I've learned not to confuse "exposing" with "doing something about it" or "taking it upon myself to stop this madness".

I just exposed it and got myself out. What others want to do with that is their choice.

Interesting enough, I had a phone call this week from someone who's fairly close to me wanting me to attend the Fall Musical that was happening this morning. I told her no and we had a good conversation about it. She knows why we left...she knows what happened to us and she just thinks it's "horrible"...and what church is she still attending? I'm not saying she needs to leave...I'm just saying she isn't going anywhere.

I've exposed it...and people who haven't been hurt the way we have just think what's happened to us is "awful"...but they're not willing to investigate or get involved.

When will enough be enough for everyone to wake up and stop the madness? I don't know...I do know I've had enough.

Joe,
I do, I'd like to say...I do like your attitude and I totally get the chosen frozen line! HA! Welcome to New England!

[gwen]

I have a question for you all:

How do you deal with mind control where, when you try to expose, everyone believes what the mind controller says instead of what you say? Our former "pastor" trained people through mind control not to accept anything that anyone would say negative against him. If someone would try to expose him, the members would say, "You are defiling my mind and I will not listen to what you have to say!" Our former "pastor" did all eight of Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Criteria of Mind Control.

Both my husband's and my families tried for years to tell us the truth about our "pastor", other members' families tried to tell them...we would all laugh about it and one lady said, "Brainwashing? Well, I need my brain washed! I need my mind renewed!" Every time I talked to my dad, he would bring up the subject of our "pastor", but I would literally "shut down" and not listen to him.

What caused my breakthrough was that last summer (2004) our former "pastor" was getting bolder and there were "red flags" going up all over the place for me. I had the thought, "everyone's families say that we're a cult, I have to find out if it's true." I did an online search on cults, which exposed the truth to me. I then related what I had learned to my husband and it exposed the truth to him. Our oldest son was relieved; he had wanted to leave for a year and a half, but had only been staying because we were there. We then had to expose the truth to our middle son. We actually had to do an intervention with our middle son to break the mind control over him.

Knowing how bad the mind control was there...it fit EVERY characteristic of an authoritarian Bible-based cult...we decided that attempting to expose our "pastor" would get us nowhere, but could actually put our family in danger.
We had to rescue our own family. If someone honestly came to me and really wanted to know, I could tell them the truth...but the likelihood of that happening is slim.

[Joseph]

Listen folks,

I didn't mean to upset anyone, I had the same mind control issues as Gwen.
I never said anything about walking away as being shameful or wrong.
We can agree to disagree, thats okay too.

Joe

[ninaspirit]

no Joe, not upset here. just saying how we think - something we feel strong about. from where we've been. :)

[leesiebella]

Funny you say POSSIBLE TRIGGERS...

I just feel so sad. People should not have to even be talking about this.

Spiritual Abuse is so disgustingly aweful...it literally makes me ill, my stomach is turning.

I see how people can be used so easily, to literally damage others. To hurt and ruin lives, all in Jesus name.

Excuse me while I go throw up!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[leesiebella]

I agree Joe... for me personally, where I'm at today.

Right now, I want to just scream all the atrocities from the rooftop! Why are people allowed to just get away with this?

I do not think that every person is able to "expose". We are all built differently and I think some personalities like the challenge, while others shy away from it.

This doesn't make either wrong or right.

You should do what you need to do, without compromising your character and integrity. It's all up to the individual, I think.

Thanks for letting me vent, I feel better!:)

[Jerry]

I prefer working behind the senes,being calculating and exposing them when it is to their disadvantage,when they are least able to respond.,,,,,Cruel ????,,,,,well maybe,,,,,,,,,I don't like to be upset or dramatic exposing them,,,,,,,,,,Revenge is a "Dish" best served cold ;)

[Joseph]

Maybe we talk about "Exposing Them"and the word expose means something different to each of us. Expose to me means to let the abusers know that you know whats going on, it's wrong, and your not doing it to me any longer. I have decided through prayer to let people know who come and ask, and there have been many in my case.
What does "Expose" mean to you?

Hey Nina, no problem, lets start fresh.

Joe

[SpinningHead]

Listen folks,
I didn't mean to upset anyone, I had the same mind control issues as Gwen.
I never said anything about walking away as being shameful or wrong.
We can agree to disagree, thats okay too.
Joe

No upsetting going on over here... I love that we're talking about this and I love the exchange of ideas & experiences. I've learned a lot from this forum, changed my mind about a couple of things, validated some correct thinking and look forward to a difference of opinion.

No worries on my end! :D

[gwen]

I agree Joe... for me personally, where I'm at today.

Right now, I want to just scream all the atrocities from the rooftop! Why are people allowed to just get away with this?

I do not think that every person is able to "expose". We are all built differently and I think some personalities like the challenge, while others shy away from it.

This doesn't make either wrong or right.

You should do what you need to do, without compromising your character and integrity. It's all up to the individual, I think.

Thanks for letting me vent, I feel better!:)

Yes, I would love to scream all the atrocities from the rooftop! At our old "church", others had tried when they left to do that...our former "pastor" has been confronted many, many times. He would laugh about it and make comments like "And look who's gone and who's still here!" And then he would go on and say things like, "And now these people don't have a walk with God!" Because, of course, he had all truth, there was nowhere else that a person could go once they left. That was frightening to think that anywhere we would go would be "less than". He mocked the people who tried to confront him. Now that I look back on the situation, it seems to me that he knows full well what he is doing. He made this comment to me once, "People say that I control people. I don't control people, people just submit to me!" When he said that to me, I thought to myself, "That's because you intimidate us to submit to you!" (Which of course I didn't say outloud! Why? Because I was too intimidated!!!:confused: )

There was one time that I did try to confront him on something that he said when he was speaking "apostalically" to me. His "word" to me was not true at all and I fumed about it for 3 days until finally I told my husband that I had to talk to him about it. I told him after church on a Wednesday night that I needed to talk to him. So my husband and I went to his office. When he saw my husband was with me, he said (very snidely), "Oh, this MUST be serious! You've brought him with you!" When I told him that what he said was not true and was not at all how I felt, his response was, "I was speaking apostalically and the apostalic word is NEVER wrong!" So, my confrontation didn't change anything...I walked out of the room just as frustrated as I did when I went in.

A year and a half before we left, I was wanting to leave then. He picked up on my mood, I guess (he was pretty perceptive of "his" people's body language) and he called me into his office (I was alone). Usually when he would deal with me, it would be harshly, but that time, he turned on the charm and the sugary sweet, "I'm sorry if I've hurt you" routine. "You know", he said, "God disciplines those who He loves. And discipline is not easy, it is painful!" etc., etc.

There were others that would go through periods of wanting to leave, and he would manipulate them into staying. I didn't want to even give him the opportunity to manipulate me any longer, so I knew that the only way to keep him from manipulating me was to get away from him! And that's what I did!

I guess this discussion did trigger me! Sorry, but I guess it's a touchy issue with me. I don't really have a confrontational type of personality. I admire people who can do that, but in a disagreement, I'm usually the one who will back down.

[SpinningHead]

Expose to me means to let the abusers know that you know whats going on, it's wrong, and your not doing it to me any longer. I have decided through prayer to let people know who come and ask, and there have been many in my case.


Expose to me means...
to let the abusers know that you know whats going on, ...check!
it's wrong, ...check!

and your not doing it to me any longer. ...check!

I have decided through prayer to let people know who come and ask, and there have been many in my case....check!

and for all of you morning thinkers...as it is 9:44 AM EST...

Definitions of expose on the Web:

expose or make accessible to some action or influence; "Expose your students to art"; "expose the blanket to sunshine"
unwrap: make known to the public information that was previously known only to a few people or that was meant to be kept a secret; "The auction house would not disclose the price at which the van Gogh had sold"; "The actress won't reveal how old she is"; "bring out the truth"; "he broke the news to her"; "unwrap the evidence in the murder case"
to show, make visible or apparent; "The Metropolitan Museum is exhibiting Goya's works this month"; "Why don't you show your nice legs and wear shorter skirts?"; "National leaders will have to display the highest skills of statesmanship"
uncover: remove all or part of one's clothes to show one's body; "uncover your belly"; "The man exposed himself in the subway"
disclose: disclose to view as by removing a cover; "The curtain rose to disclose a stunning set"
queer: put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position
expose to light, of photographic film
debunk: expose while ridiculing; especially of pretentious or false claims and ideas; "The physicist debunked the psychic's claims"
abandon by leaving out in the open air; "The infant was exposed by the teenage mother"; "After Christmas, many pets get abandoned"
the exposure of an impostor or a fraud; "he published an expose of the graft and corruption in city government"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Exposé is a Latin freestyle pop-dance trio of the 1980s. Record producer and songwriter Lewis A. Martineé formed an all-female vocal trio called Exposé in 1984; he hired Sandra Casanas ("Sandeé"), Aléjandra Lorenzo ("Alé"), and Laurie Miller to be in the group's lineup. The next year, they recorded "Point of No Return" which became a dance hit. The year after, they recorded and released another dance single entitled "Exposed to Love". This led to their signing with Arista Records. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expose_(band)

In Mac OS X, Exposé is a tool for managing open windows (especially large numbers of windows), allowing the user to quickly see all open windows (or specific sets) without the need to click through many windows to find a specific target.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposé_(Mac_OS_X)

An exposé is an article or book intended to reveal shocking or surprising information. Often, they are a form of investigative journalism, in which a reporter/author delves into a commonplace subject and discovers scandal or other misdeeds. A good example might be Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which exposed shocking disregard for health in the meat-packing industry of the early 20th century.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposé_(journalism)

[leesiebella]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Spinning Head, awesome segway!

I needed a chuckle!:D