Is it really abuse????

[baldguy]

OK I want to disassociate and bury my head in the sand. Somebody tell me I'm not crazy. Please allow me to tell a bit of my story. Is it really abuse or am I just misunderstanding? Here goes--- One of many many stories.

A few weeks ago the Senior Pastor I work for got up at the end of the song service and began to say in a very strong manor that the Holy Ghost was very grieved. As the Associate Pastor and Worship Leader I was taken off gaurd. I am pretty keen and I didn't feel that God was grieved. He went on to say that God had been offended because there were a few adults talking during the song service. He began to cry and say "Father forgive them because they know not what they do" He then said in a very angry voice. "Shut Up or Get out!" I was troubled because I didn't feel like the punishment fit the crime. Later that same service the Pastor's wife who was working with the children's church. Went off on the kids because they were very unruly. Kids went home crying because Pastor was ashamed of us and disappointed in us and we are going to go to jail because we were disobeying.

I have worked here for 4 years. I have had several incidents like this but have never questioned the pastor. I finally did this time. I prayed and prayed and went in in fear and trembling. I simply asked the question of could these have been handled differently. I was told that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what had taken place. If I had a problem I needed to talk to the Holy Ghost because he had told them to do and say exactly as they did. I was also told in these exact words that it is our job as Pastor's to shame those who disobey. Shame???? I asked. I was told that these offenders had brought shame upon God and we had to respond in such a manor to shame them back. He went on to say the only thing he should have done differently was to call them (baby christians) by name and tell them to get out.

I was then very strongly rebuked. I was told that the Pastor couldn't trust me at all anymore. I had come in such a arrogant manor and doubted the Pastor's ability to hear God. I was also "commanded to never speak of this again". I have really searched my heart and do not feel that I was anything but humble.

Is shame really a tool that God uses to discipline us? I've been in the ministry for 13 years and should know these answers but find myself questioning everything.:confused:

[gwen]

YOU ARE NOT CRAZY!!! YOU ARE NOT WRONG!!!

Your pastor sounds EXACTLY like our former "pastor"! (He would rebuke people by name publicly!) I read your post out loud to my husband and said to him, "who does THIS sound like???" His response was, "they're not still there, are they?"

It never ceases to amaze me that there are so many "spiritual leaders" out there like this!

We left our "church" in August 2004. After we left, I read lots of books on spiritual abuse, mind control, cults, and cult recovery. A leader who is above correction and has the ultimate authority over a group fits the description of a cult leader. This man is abusing the people and confrontation got you nowhere, other than a rebuke. Here's a scripture for you to consider: Matthew 20:25-28: But Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people , and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many." (New Living Translation) It seems to me that this is still a major problem among "spiritual leaders" today...they are flaunting their authority instead serving the Lord's people.

Here's some resources that you might want to check out:
Books:
"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen
"Healing Spiritual Abuse" by Ken Blue
"Damaged Disciples" by Ron & Vicki Burks
"Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnlogar
Websites:
www.rickross.com
www.factnet.org
www.csj.org
www.cultwatch.com
www.freedomofmind.com

Hope this helps!
Gwen

[gwen]

Someone else posted this questionnaire recently, and I couldn't find the thread, so I'm going to repeat it here for you. I thought it was excellent. See how your church measures up:

Here is a questionnaire to determine just how healthy your local church is. Believe it or not, not every Christian church is a safe place. To find out how well your church ranks, answer "yes" or "no" to the following 12 questions:

1. Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?

2. Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?

3. Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?

4. Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?

5. Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?

6. Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?

7. Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?

8. Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?

9. Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?

10. Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supercede any personal goals or individual interests?

11. Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?

12. Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?

If you answered "no" to all of the above 12 questions, your church is very healthy. If you answered "yes" to three or more, your church is showing signs of being unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to six or more, your church is very unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to eight or more, your church is a full-blown authoritarian cult.


It's quite an eye-opener, isn't it?
Gwen

[Jerry]

Baldguy,,,,
I was about to be kind and conservitive with my answer until I got to the part where this "Pasturd" and his wife shame children.Now I must call it like it is.They Are Pigs The voice that those people are following is not from Him who called them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Their rock is not our Rock. That is just the way it is !!!!!!
Love Jerry
Praying for you Baldguy

[Zoe]

You are not crazy & yes, it is abuse.

[SpinningHead]

Hello Baldguy! Welcome!

Gwen listed some great resources and don't forget Toxic Faith by Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton.

One thing that stuck out at me as your pastor's assumption at a lot:

#1) So what if adult whisper to each other during a sermon...so often hubby and I would lean over and whisper an affirmation of the sermon or a simple moment of sweet nothing. Since when am I in second grade and can't whisper to my loved one? Will he slap my knuckles?

#2) If the Holy Spirit was grieved, don't you think you and more people would have felt that inner spirit sadness?

#3) It sounds like he's saying HE is the only one that can hear the Holy Spirit...very dangerous Jim Jonesy if you ask me.

#4) It also sounds like he assuming that HE's the only mature Christian in your church and if any of you dare speak up or question his motives/methods...why you're just a baby Christian! That's belittling, insulting and plain stupid on his part.

#5) Since when is a church the not most perfect place for a Baby Christian??? That's like saying the hospital is only for the healthy..??

#6) You said you were second guessing yourself...which, IMHO, I actually think that's fine to do...just go to the Word of God, look up your subject and get the authority's position on the matter and then know that you know that you know what you're talking about and let no mere person question what you know you know for a fact!

If you're an associate pastor working for this lunatic who intimadate the congregation and allow Mrs. Pastor to bully little children...My friend, you just might be in the most unique position to do something about it! Something we have all not been able to do...

If this were me, just speaking for me here w/out knowing all your experiences...I would suggest you start (if you haven't already) journaling/recording the messages and get tapes of the questionable sermons. Are there any independant thinking elders or board members in your church feeling the same way? Rally up the troops my friend! You've already attempted to speak to the pastor and now it is time to go over his head...if the troops are trumped out...then I suggest you write a letter to the denomination (is this affiliated to one?)

If your church is not affiliated to a denomination and it's a single person runned church...then run now! run! run! run! Ok, maybe you can't run...but you can finish any obligations you may have, refused anything new and announce two weeks before you renew your contract you don't intend to renew. You don't owe anyone explanations if it's only going to cause you more harm and hurt.

You're in a tough spot and you're not crazy and yes it's abusive by definition of all the resources posted here.

I'll keep you in my prayers, although I'm sure God will get a giggle out of ,

Dear Lord...I lift up baldguy to you tonight. Baldguy's got some problems and he didn't mention his head. :)

Welcome to the forum and please let us know how we can help.

[truth]

Boy is that ever sick stuff.....sounds like my old church.....
Once again, people who have never gotten honest about their own "stuff"
lots and lots of anger - probably got problems you aren't even aware of....family, marriage, etc....burdened down by "religion" not processing it all....and then , when normal things like people talking happens bam! it triggers up the anger - Pastor and his wife take out all of their problems on the congregation - and you're sitting there stunned, going "this can't be right, this can't be ok ....Jesus never told anyway to shut up - let alone screaming at children....." and no one(leaders) are mature enough to take responsibility and play grown-ups and then, for good measure they throw in scriptures and the I'm the authority I'm the leadership - I speak for God Don't Question me stuff.....and...... there you are!

They're wrong, they're idiots, once again proving, I guess, that anyone can operate in a church as a leader without accountability.....they should have a "learner's permit" before they're allowed to drive!

whoa - sorry for what you're going through -- been there , done that!

truth

[mirror]

OK I want to disassociate and bury my head in the sand. Somebody tell me I'm not crazy. Please allow me to tell a bit of my story. Is it really abuse or am I just misunderstanding? Here goes--- One of many many stories.

A few weeks ago the Senior Pastor I work for got up at the end of the song service and began to say in a very strong manor that the Holy Ghost was very grieved. As the Associate Pastor and Worship Leader I was taken off gaurd. I am pretty keen and I didn't feel that God was grieved. He went on to say that God had been offended because there were a few adults talking during the song service. He began to cry and say "Father forgive them because they know not what they do" He then said in a very angry voice. "Shut Up or Get out!" I was troubled because I didn't feel like the punishment fit the crime. Later that same service the Pastor's wife who was working with the children's church. Went off on the kids because they were very unruly. Kids went home crying because Pastor was ashamed of us and disappointed in us and we are going to go to jail because we were disobeying.

I have worked here for 4 years. I have had several incidents like this but have never questioned the pastor. I finally did this time. I prayed and prayed and went in in fear and trembling. I simply asked the question of could these have been handled differently. I was told that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what had taken place. If I had a problem I needed to talk to the Holy Ghost because he had told them to do and say exactly as they did. I was also told in these exact words that it is our job as Pastor's to shame those who disobey. Shame???? I asked. I was told that these offenders had brought shame upon God and we had to respond in such a manor to shame them back. He went on to say the only thing he should have done differently was to call them (baby christians) by name and tell them to get out.

I was then very strongly rebuked. I was told that the Pastor couldn't trust me at all anymore. I had come in such a arrogant manor and doubted the Pastor's ability to hear God. I was also "commanded to never speak of this again". I have really searched my heart and do not feel that I was anything but humble.

Is shame really a tool that God uses to discipline us? I've been in the ministry for 13 years and should know these answers but find myself questioning everything.:confused:
Baldguy,

Yes! It is abuse! The pastor at the abusive church we left did exactly the same thing (among so many other things... including calling the police to drag the people out, then changing the locks... and then trying to sue them for leaving him and their financial obligations to him). And when we left, we began to questioning everything we'd previously "known" too!

Besides recommending the book "Healing Spiritual Abuse" by Ken Blue, I have to say that the easiest way to discover whether you or the pastor are correct is to look at how Jesus handled this type of thing (Did He ever use shame? How did He treat little children?) and what type of things He stood up against (He never took a personal stand against homosexuality, bad parenting, talking during His sermons, slavery, etc. but He took many personal stands against religious leaders who misused their position). Really beware when a pastor tries to take the place of the "high priest", claiming to have the shortest route to God, or the best understanding of the Holy Spirit or a "don't you dare question me" attitude or whatever! According to 1 Corinthians 12, we are all equal - different but equal! According to Galatians 1:8-9 & 1 John 4:1 we are NOT to have "blind trust" in ANY leader.

I think it's especially difficult for pastoral staff to notice and step away from spiritual abuse. Hubby was a youth pastor, then an associate pastor. It was so difficult for him to see! In fact, he almost chose to stay at the church while letting the kids and I leave. Thankfully he left with us. That was in January of 2004! It wasn't until early October 2005 that he actually realized it WAS spiritual abuse! You're doing good to recognize it!

I pray that God helps you as you deal with the situation!

[Leslie]

Hi baldguy,

I'd ask your colleague to show you his texts on shaming the congregants, and on the genral lack of love and gentleness.

The guy sounds mentally imbalanced to me.

[Janice]

Is shame really a tool that God uses to discipline us?


In my opinion, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
If, i read my Bible correctly...Jesus already "paid the price for myguilt AND my shame!!!"

[gwen]

Dear Baldguy,

I was thinking about you and your wife this morning, about the fact that this church is also your employer and that if you leave you'll need to find another job. Just wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you about that situation...

God bless,
Gwen

[Jerry]

Dear Baldguy,

I was thinking about you and your wife this morning, about the fact that this church is also your employer and that if you leave you'll need to find another job. Just wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you about that situation...

God bless,
Gwen
Dear Baldguy,,,,,
I just want you to know this,,,,none of us here are judges.....It's real easy to talk,,,,,,but another ball game when it comes to children whos well being has been given to your charge.Personally I would swallow dung if it ment feeding my children......If it becomes necessary for you to be a dung swallower,,,,,know that we will love and support you in whatever way we can.Whatever desision you have to make,,,,,,,,,it will be honored here ;)
Love Jerry

[SpinningHead]

Dear Baldguy,,,,,
Personally I would swallow dung if it ment feeding my children......If it becomes necessary for you to be a dung swallower,,,,, Love Jerry

Ummm.....Eeeeew! ;)

[j elohim]

baldlguy?

the self-righteous scribes and pharisees treated Yeshua(Jesus) the same way the senior? pastor? treated his congregation.
Yeshua simply and plainly called them(the religious leaders) serpents and
scorpions and children of thea devil[Yeshua spoke often of the devil and demons].
Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and for causing others
to stumble. The poor and humble and broken and despised He helped, He blessed,
He strengthened and gave hope to. The proud and arrogant He sternly warned of
the certainty of G-d's Judgement if they did not turn back to G-d.
Yeshua said G-d is kind, but not soft [on sin]. He told His audience that they all
would likewise perish(all who hear Him) unless they turn back to G-d.
(so we can't be proud ourselves, as if free from penalty no matter what we do;
we must turn back to G-d always also, His Way - His Plan, Yeshua)

to sum: yes, that 'pastor' showed himself a goat, abusive, not G-dly.
what to do about him is set forth in Scripture, subject to G-d.

...

tangent...

G-d says His own people should be ashamed of their betrayal of Messiah,
of their treading under foot the Son of G-d and G-d's Instructions,
but I don't know if or that G-d means to use shame as a tool - if He does,
it is for His own people's good : Salvation!

Apostle Paul quoted Scripture that if we are His, we will go outside the gate
with Him and willingly share in His humiliation in our oneness with Him.
Those who cause the shame are not justified for causing it,
but those who willingly share the shame with Yeshua are greatly greatly rewarded by G-d HIMSELF.
This shame is not a voluntary nor monklike attempt to gain G-d's approval;
but a natural result of living in accordance
with G-d's Plan in a desperately wicked society
according to Scripture.

So you can expect to be rejected if you love the truth; Yeshua was.
You can expect that religious leaders will attempt to humiliate you if
you love the truth; they did the same to Yeshua.

Only, instead of fealing beaten, you will be strengthened by G-d; Yeshua was.
Instead of being depressed or ashamed, you will be full of holy joy: Yeshua.
Instead of defeat, you will overcome the world's power; Yeshua's Gift to you if
you trustingly follow Him.

Recovery from religion is one of the most unexpected and startling revelations
in Truth, and only comes when G-d chooses. He is Willing, and gives Grace to
the humble; but the proud and arrogant He opposes.


signed: hurt but
healing and comforted by Abba-Father-G-d;
shalom