associate pastor's wife, sp. abused

[leesiebella]

Hi new here....

I am hurting. Confused. Unsure of what to do. My husband and I are currently serving in a VERY abusive church. We are victims as well.

Upon confronting some issues, for the first and only time in 5 yrs of service, my husband was threatened with his job.

Leaders are CRAZY abusive... (maybe I'll share some of my stories sometime)... They are not accountable to anyone, just them... Pastor and wife, no board, no elders, no management team, no nothing. No denom either.

So, what to do??? That is the question of the day!

So many questions, no answers. Why? Why? Why?

What about the people in the congregation who are used to the abuse? Who almost expect it? But are hurting as well.

Advice???

[Hope 98]

Pray & LISTEN! (to God - that is)

Ask for open windows, open doors, courage, safety. Ask God if you need to leave, when, how.

If God would have you stay - Ask Him how He wants you to fight.

God does not call us to do anything He doesn't also empower us to do.

And even if He would have you stay to fight - He may abruptly tell you to stop fighting and run. That's what He did for me, several years ago.

Important to note - God does not always have us all do exactly the same thing. Don't expect that you will need to do what any of the others here have done.

You are probably already well in tune with God's heart.

[Leslie]

I don't know what your church constitution permits, but pastors are not above church discipline. You could "do" Matt 18 on him and his wife. Some churches do fire pastors.

Very sorry to hear of your situation,
Leslie

[Jerry]

Upon confronting some issues, for the first and only time in 5 yrs of service, my husband was threatened with his job.

Dear Leesiebella,,,
It's unclear to me how your husbands employment is involved.Is he employed by the Church??? Or is he employed by this "Pastor" in business outside the church ??? If by the Church ,there doesn't appear to be much you can do but decide to go or stay. If he is employed outside the Church in Business then an arguement could be made for discrimination on the basis of religion.If the latter is the case, find a way to doccument the threat,,,,,,,,and then sue his frickin socks off.Don't hesitate if thats the case just because he claims to be Christian.Who is hubby working for ????? Christ or Al Capone ?????
Love Jerry

[jane]

welcome leesia bella-

this thread is so long but I seem unable to start a new post:confused:


I am also wondered how your husband's job would be effected.

I was also in a church with no denomination, no board, no accountability. There was no way this church would fire the pastor, he was practically worshipped.

For us, we were sick of the abuse and felt accountable to God for the condition of our own walk and our children's. SO after a few years.....yes, it took us over 2 years of finally cutting out of there once we knew-- we left.

That is when the abuse got really in your face bad. It was 6 months of torment. We have no connection to anyone in that church as of today-
but they are a large force in our community so we bump into one of them at least once a week.

The bottom line for my husband and I was that we had to "choose this day who we would serve".

I want to get to the end of this life, face my savior and hear, "my good and faithful servant, well done".

That is the race I want to run so by staying I would be accountable for contributing to the lies and abuse.....and unable to pursue our dream of Hannah's Haven.

Welcome to our group, may you find healing and peace............


jane

ps remember that His sheep hear His voice; He will guide you.

[leesiebella]

Thanks for everyone's words of advice. :0)

Let me explain the situation a little, if I may.

My husband was approached 5 yrs ago, asked to come and be "on staff" at this church. We lived in California at the time. They moved us across the country to Texas.

His "title" at the church is Associate Pastor, but really, he is the worship/music leader and youth pastor, and does "whatever the pastor doesn't want to do".

He grew up in this church. Left when he was 18, was in the ministry elsewhere for 10 years, and then took this position.

Pastor and his wife founded this church in 1984. They have NEVER had a board, elders or any kind of oversight, as far as accountability. They make any and every decision, in every area. Church runs about 200-250 people.

Husband is salaried, gets a weekly paycheck. No insurance, no benefits. Salary is determined by pastor. Everything is determined by pastor.

We have 3 small children. I do not work outside of the home. Our sole income comes from the church.

Now, one might think... "Why didn't you suspect abuse with so many signs to begin with?"

Well, that's the thing, on the outside, things 'appear' really great. The services are okay, if you can handle being told you are pea-brained and an idiot every week. Youth program is excellent. Children's program has been excellent, until recently, when the children's pastor resigned. Things have got progressively worse. Excellent nursery. Praise and Worship is upbeat, grace filled, inspired, due to my husband.

It's hard to tell such a long, crazy detailed story of abuse in one paragraph. The stories are endless. The abuse is very real.

Many people have grown to trust us. I know that our leaving will be terrible for them. Many have told us that they stay only b/c of us. This hard to hear, b/c you don't want to publically disrespect the pastor, but inside, your going, "I know... I hate it here too!"

We have never spoke ill of the Pastor or wife. My husband would never. Doesn't think it's right... wants to take the high road. Which I agree with...bless those that persecute you...right?

Where is the line? SO many people have come to us for advice/help/prayer. They are deeply hurting and wounded people, all hurt by this pastor and wife. We have counseled many people thru their own pain and helped them see the false beliefs they have held. Doing so without mentioning pastor and wife. Just speaking the truth from God's word. Many have stayed for years, however, looking for their approval. So disfunctional.

So, we know our time here is going to end. It's just very difficult to leave in a way that is going to hurt the least amount of people. Is that possible? We know we will be TRASHED by the pastor and wife. We also know that a huge portion of this church loves and respects us. We are NOT trying to lead a rebellion or split.

If we leave, we will most likely leave the area geographically.

It's interesting, my position. I am just another member of this "church", but I also hear what comes from the pastor's office about people. I hear the people's version, and I hear what the pastor thinks. Tricky tricky.

[gwen]

Dear Leesiebella,

Oh! How I understand where you're at! Our former "church" was TOTALLY controlled by a "pastor" who had NO accountability! We did have deacons & elders, but they were all "yes" people. My husband was a deacon, and sometimes he would voice disagreeement (he was always the only one), but because he was outnumbered and basically has an easy-going personality, he would always end up submitting to the "pastor" and the rest of the "elders & deacons". The by-laws of the "church" actually state that the "pastor" CANNOT be fired!!! He always says that if anyone is going to leave, it's not going to be him, it'll be the other person! Just like you said it is at your church, the people there practically worship him (though they would deny it). Submission to the "pastor" is equated with submission to God.

Last summer (2004), there were more and more "red flags" going up...it seemed that he was getting bolder...I've got lots and lots of stories! We were in the "church" for 10 years. Finally, I was under such distress that I did a search online about cults. I didn't go to bed that night, I just read and cried. Our "church" fit every characteristic of a Bible-based cult. My husband was out of town that week on business. Before I did the online search, he and I talked for about an hour on the phone about all the things that we were seeing and how we wanted to leave, but felt trapped. After that all-nighter, I knew that we had to leave. It was the hardest thing that we've ever done in our lives. Immediately, the "pastor" started a smear campaign on us...he even told the rest of the congregation (we heard from a young lady who left after we did) not to take advantage of our leaving as an opportunity for them to leave. He did major "damage control" when we left because we were "pillars" of the "church". I think because of the heavy-handedness of the "pastor", we were a small church, we had around 50-60 people...we had a hard time keeping new people, though we had great praise and worship, great youth and kids programs, and loving people in the congregation. Our family was very well-liked. We were the musicians on the praise and worship team: I play keyboard, my husband plays drums, our oldest son plays bass, and our middle son plays guitar (our youngest son was only 8 when we left). I was the high school teacher at the church-school and the "figurehead" school administrator (the "pastor" controlled EVERYTHING behind the scenes...I had to submit to all of his decisions). We were very involved with the youth. Our two oldest sons grew up in the church and were very involved with the youth group. We were basically involved with all of the "church" ministries, there every time the doors were open. So, I know that when we left, we did leave a big hole. However, the "pastor" has such mind control over the people, that there's only been 2 people that have left since we did a year ago. When we left, we did what we felt that the Lord was leading us to do for our family and we just continue to pray for the people that their eyes will be opened up to the truth. I know that people are hurting there, though there was a strict "No Talk" rule...but people would hint about abuses.

I know that you're at a place of great struggle right now, but I have two questions that you might want to think about:

How will staying affect your family?
Do you want to continue to support the "ministry" of your pastor?

God bless you...I know that He is with you and will give you strength to do His will!

Gwen

[SpinningHead]

Hello Leesiebella & welcome to the foum!

It sounds like a lot of people are sick of your pastor and his authoritan ways.

There are a lot of books of the subject of Spiritual Abuse that you probably want to check out. They give a lot of advice and really help take the blinders off.

What would happen if you started to read these books and then started recommending them to people who were coming to you for help? And what would happen if enough of your people read them and all felt like doing something about it? oooo....stirrin' up trouble now!

Toxic Faith by Stephen Arterburn & Jack Felton
Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (check out info on this site)
Healing Spiritual Abuse

<<Gwen..?? what are the other?? You're so good at this! :D >>

I'm concerned about you're "taking the high road" though...if you think you're talking bad about a person by talking about their open actions, you've (like me) have been bamboozeled into "silence". You're not taking the high road by not talking about what you're telling us is obvious to a variety of people. In fact, you're not servicing anyone at all....these people may be coming to you for your hubby's position of authority looking for a safe place to discuss their concerns. They need to be heard and suggestions for change need to be addressed. Otherwise, you might be in the position we feel about our ex-associate-pastor...We went to him for help and counsel, and he wasn't there for us (too concerned about his image and protecting his job). We desperately needed him and help...nuthin'...just a bunch of lip services and "yups" and in the end...nuthin'.

I highly highly recommend a book called "Critical Conversations"

http://www.vitalsmarts.com/CrucialSkills/

as a book for learning tools to identify communication patterns and give you tools on how to achieve your goals in highly intense/sticky situations.

Stay with us and let us know how we can help you. :)

[gwen]

<<Gwen..?? what are the other?? You're so good at this! :D >>



Here's some resources that you might want to check out:
Books:
"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen
"Healing Spiritual Abuse" by Ken Blue
"Damaged Disciples" by Ron & Vicki Burks
"Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnlogar
"Without Conscience" by Robert D. Hare, PhD
"Churches That Abuse" and "Recovering From Churches That Abuse" by Ron Enroth
Websites:
www.rickross.com
www.factnet.org
www.csj.org
www.cultwatch.com
www.freedomofmind.com

Here's a list of questions that come from the book, "Recovering From Churches That Abuse":
1.) Does a member's personality generally become stronger, happier, more confident as a result of contact with the group?
2.) Do members of the group seek to strengthen their family commitments?
3.) Does the group encourage independent thinking and the development of discernment skills?
4.) Does the group allow for individual differences of belief and behavior, particularly on issues of secondary importance?
5.) Does the group encourage high moral standards both among members and between members and non-members?
6.) Does the group's leadership invite dialogue, advice, and evaluation from outside its immediate circle?
7.) Does the group allow for development in theological beliefs?
8.) Are group members encouraged to ask hard questions of any kind?
9.) Do members appreciate truth whereve it is found even if it is outside their group?
10.) Is the group honest in dealing with nonmembers, especially as it tries to win them to the group?
11.) Does the group foster relationships and connections with the larger society that are more than self-serving?

[mirror]

leesiebella, I so hurt for you! Hubby & I were in a similar position (he was youth pastor, then associate pastor (which was a change in title only - job still included youth, worship team, music leader and preaching) - only no paycheck! I was church secretary - also no paycheck, but that made me "inner circle" and I saw so much wrong straight off!

Anytime I hear someone involved in such a strongly held abusive situation, I want to yell at the top of my lungs, "GET OUT OF THERE NOW!!!" But I realize it's not that easy! I was stuck in our church more than 3 years after I wanted to leave, because hubby didn't see the problems. It is my strong opinion (and it gets stronger the more I read and hear) that when you're in a significantly abusive situation, you need to escape; for your sake, for your husband's sake, for the sake of your children (our problem became that our children saw this church situation as "normal" and it is still causing us problems nearly 2 years AE [After Escaping]), for the sake of the others who say they are only there because of you, and for the sake of everyone (Christian or not) who watches the church situation and assumes that because you're part of it, that you support it. You are not causing a split or rebellion or anything else by leaving! Your pastor caused it all with his abuse. Yes, he will smear you! Ours told outrageous lies about why we left! But you and your family will be safe, and that is where your obligation lies!

As for speaking agains the pastor and his wife, it's one thing to do it as gossip or in order to repay them for how they treated you, but it's another thing to do it in order to protect someone or help them heal! Jesus never spoke against anyone just to speak, but He DID warn people quite often about the Pharisees, bad shepherds and false prophets! We're not talking about harming someone's reputation! These people have created their own bad reputation! Now you are simply warning others to stay far away from the fire.

Again, please realize this is my own opinion! Not everyone will agree with me, I'm sure, and not knowing everything involved, I sure won't tell you what you must do. Just know you are in my prayers as you decide when to go and where to go etc.

[gwen]

You are not causing a split or rebellion or anything else by leaving! Your pastor caused it all with his abuse. Yes, he will smear you! Ours told outrageous lies about why we left! But you and your family will be safe, and that is where your obligation lies!



That is so true!

[leesiebella]

I'm concerned about you're "taking the high road" though...if you think you're talking bad about a person by talking about their open actions, you've (like me) have been bamboozeled into "silence". You're not taking the high road by not talking about what you're telling us is obvious to a variety of people. In fact, you're not servicing anyone at all....these people may be coming to you for your hubby's position of authority looking for a safe place to discuss their concerns. They need to be heard and suggestions for change need to be addressed. Otherwise, you might be in the position we feel about our ex-associate-pastor...We went to him for help and counsel, and he wasn't there for us (too concerned about his image and protecting his job). We desperately needed him and help...nuthin'...just a bunch of lip services and "yups" and in the end...nuthin'.




You are totally right. I just came home tonight, having a conversation with a gal from church. She expressed to me deep concerns about the leadership, who she herself has confronted several times. She doesn't know yet what she is really feeling and is questioning a lot.

She asked me, "Is this normal? Are other churches like this? I grew up here, I never been anywhere else, I don't know if this is normal."

I found myself falling into the whole "no talk" thing...for fear that it would get back that I said something negative about the pastor and wife. Then I thought, "NO!" I can say how I feel. To whom ever I please!

Came home and talked to husband about it... he was like, " We can't be here, what are we doing here??"

We are just trying to decide when and how. This will end. It gets harder and harder by the day. He will have to find another job. We aren't in a denom., so it's not like you can just be transferred or something. Not sure about all that.

Tomorrow, If I may, I would like to share a few things with my new friends....a few examples of what we've been thru.

Until then, may God bless each and every one of you and may He heal us all. Amen.

[Janice]

leesiebella,
I hear ya! You ARE NOT ALONE! Welcome to the forum.

[ninaspirit]

Do people always have to say why they are leaving a church?


Can one not simply say "we believe we are needed elsewhere?" that sounds like a cop out but if thinking about all the emotional upheaval within the church on account of it already being abusive it seems one would want to find support for leaving to have the strength to break ties where needed. abusers don't understand and once confronted, unless they're making honest mistakes, usually don't "hear" - is my experience.

We are just learning but from the little we know, if you are already quite sure the response would be more abuse, then this verse makes sense from Matthew:

7:6 "Do not give what is holy (your heart, thoughts, emotions, etc) to dogs—they will only turn and attack you. Do not throw your pearls in front of pigs—they will only trample them underfoot. (protect yourselves- if sharing why you are leaving maybe have a recovery plan in place)

funny we used to think that verse was just for people who are mean outside the church. we were wrong. it is for abusers where ever they are.

we think that means there will only be more of the same from what you have already experienced. we hope that isn't taken out of context. the next verse is more promising for us.

7:7 "Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. R62

it could mean there is something better waiting for you if you Look away from your situation to find it. if others are sticking it out because you are there, chances are they will find their freedom if you leave.

well, just a few thoughts. we hope things get better for you. sincerely nina.

[Joseph]

I feel, when abuse is present, it needs to be exposed. In business, marriage, with children, with animals, etc. so why is church exempt? If it is exposed, it can be dealt with and change or protection can take place, subsequently healing can follow.

Joe

[butterfly]

:) Leesiebella welcome to he forum. I have been busy and haven"t been able to reply to your post like I want to.. Someday I hope soon I can sit down and just do that posting.butterfly [Shirley]

[gwen]

Do people always have to say why they are leaving a church?




I don't think so...I agree with the scripture that you quoted about casting your pearls before swine.

We didn't give a reason when we left because we knew that it would not be received, and not only would it not have been received, but we would have stirred up a hornet's nest that we didn't want to deal with the "stings". Our former "pastor" was VERY intimidating, so when we left, we actually fled! (We stayed at my parents' house for a few days because he didn't know where they live! That's how fearful I was of this man!) We wrote a simple resignation letter basically because we held ministry positions that we needed to resign from. We left the church in August 2004 and I am just now reaching the point where I "think" I "possibly" could be able to handle an encounter with this man! (Still not sure, though!)

Gwen

[gwen]

Dear Leesiebella,

I was thinking about you and your husband this morning, about the fact that this church is also his employer and that he'll need to find another job. Just wanted to let you know that I'm praying about that for you.

Love, Gwen

[mstar]

Hello Leesiebella.
So sorry for your heartache. We are also in an abusive church struggle, I have taken the step to leave, but my hubby, who is in position, has chosen to stay. It is good you and your husband are of one mind and spirit on this. Will be in prayer.

[ninaspirit]

If there is a time for every thing - there is a time for standing up to the abuser/s and a time for just walking away. we don't know that it has to be a certain way - except we know we have to stand up in order to walk away. :)

yes, abuse does have to be exposed so safety can be restored and healing can happen. It just isn't always looking the way we think it should.

having been in differnt abuse situations as victim, we've walked away, and exposed, not all in the same situation. we would say it has to be the victim/s own choice for deciding what they can deal with. when, as a victim, we feel inside we don't have a choice (the voice says inside "we just have to..take action") because we know strongly in ourself about how something is, then we know it is our job and the Strength to do it will be there. and we can encourage and invite others and be adamant for the cause and hopefully be supported. but we don't expect another person in a same situation to make a same choice if they aren't believing it is right for them for their own reasons. there is no shame in that.

[Joseph]

Listen folks,

I didn't mean to upset anyone, I had the same mind control issues as Gwen.
I never said anything about walking away as being shameful or wrong.
We can agree to disagree, thats okay too.

Joe

[aslan903]

leesiebella,

I know there is plenty of advice offered here and I don't want to add to any more confusion that you are already experiencing. I am a former senior pastor of 15 years here in Texas. My church was a non-denom church without a controlling board, yet very strong leaders (who the pastor respected and heeded their advice when they offered it).

My suggestion to you would be to honestly discern 'the spirit' of what your church and pastor, is about. That determines whether or not you want to be there or should be there. I found that the whole argument for 'accountability' is a poor answer to most abusive situations. A large majority of the time it involves a board of mostly men, who will control and/or agree with the pastor. If your church is being operated and run outside of who Jesus really is and what he was (and is) really about, then it isn't a place that I would want to be. It is hypocrisy to pretend to preach the true life and teachings of Jesus and yet practice some fleshly religious lifestyle.

If you are truly following Jesus with the most sincere heart and love for him, you will easily discern where this man that is leading your congregation, is personally, and what he is about. It is really all about what you discern from a humble, loving heart of truly wanting God's purpose in your life versus following fleshly motivated religion.

Remember, this. Nothing bad can happen to you that God will not turn for your ultimate good. Romans 8:28 gives us this guarantee for everything that happens in our lives. Like Joseph's last encounter with his brothers in Gen. 50, what ever the enemy has meant for harm towards you, God is sovereign and will turn it for your good.

One last piece of advice for your consideration. You do not battle against flesh and blood. Even if this man has lost all perspective of what he is suppose to be about, he is still not your enemy. It doesn't mean that you submit to the abuse and take an attitude that you are going to 'just trust God to work things out'. You choose wisdom and true humility before God and act according to the wisdom that God gives you. (One of my favorite pastors that I truly respect and feel that he endeavors to walk as Jesus did, says, 'Ask yourself the question: What would wisdom do?) Any attempt at fighting this situation from the flesh (and you have to be opening and blatantly honest before God in where your heart is in this) will not work. You cannot fight flesh with flesh. It turns into a bigger mess for you and others. (I like to call a flesh to flesh encounter as a 'fleshfest'; it is ugly)

You and your husband are going to make it through this and come out with a closer walk with Jesus on the other side. What you learn and what you gain from this situation will be determined by how you handle it now. I believe that you will walk in wisdom, discernment and in faith and love. God will show you a way out of this that you likely never knew was there.

I would be happy to talk to your husband (and you) and encourage him if you all would like me to. Just let me know.

[Jerry]

Dear aslan903,,,,
Their disearnment likely is not functioning very well as they are still exposed to the abuse.Abuse is about the flesh,it is about mind controll.The war is on both fronts,,,,,,,,,,,,that which is flesh,is flesh,,,,,,that which is spirit,is spirit.We must prepair to fight on both fronts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Satan does ;)
Love Jerry

[Joseph]

To Asian903,

What spiritual abuse have you encountered?

Joe

[InTheory]

Leesiebella, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

My wife and I were in almost the same situation as you and yours for 6 years (we were the "associates"-we just didnt' draw a salary).

We just left in May of this year.

It was tough, painful, sad, and terrible.

But we feel the best that we have ever in our lives, and have found a new liberty and freedom in our faith today.

God be with you.

-Dan

[leesiebella]

Thank you friends for your support! I am listening intently!

I have started a new thread with an update of where we are...and what's going on.

BTW, aslan 903...would love to hear your story.

Also, don't know how everyone feels about this but, we do know about the whole spiritual aspect of all of this.... sometimes you even feel like a spirit/demon (whatever your term of choice is) is speaking directly to you, thru your pastors??

Sad, but I feel like any area of a person, that is not fully submitted to the lordship of Christ, fully sactified...can be used....flesh I mean. But I feel that people who are in Spiritual Leadership are very vulnerable to this....

Take all of the leaders of the past, who are probably really "called", but allow things to happen and then it just takes over....sexual sin, sexual, physical, emotional, spiritual abuse, greed, power...to name just a few.

They probably really feel like God is somehow protecting them...b/c God hasn't exposed it yet, right???

Maybe they think, in their twisted mind, "God put me here, if He wants me out, He'll do it."

A lot of people think this... I disagree. God will not cross man's free will. That's the only thing he won't cross.... He will take our life, our families, our posessions, anything, but He won't he won't take away our will....to serve Him or not is TOTALLY up to us.

It is easy to get into the trap of being praised by people and even worshipped. When that happens, you can do no wrong.

This is why I think this kind of abuse happens. People are choosing their bad behavior, and others are simply following. Anyone with any leadership qualities at all can have a church. If you have any ability at all, people will follow you.

God is not moved by our pain or need. If he was, there would be no starving children, no war, no death, no hurt at all...and no abuse.

He is moved by faith. This is our hope.

Sorry to preach a sermon... just my thoughts this morning.

[gwen]

Also, don't know how everyone feels about this but, we do know about the whole spiritual aspect of all of this.... sometimes you even feel like a spirit/demon (whatever your term of choice is) is speaking directly to you, thru your pastors??

Sad, but I feel like any area of a person, that is not fully submitted to the lordship of Christ, fully sactified...can be used....flesh I mean. But I feel that people who are in Spiritual Leadership are very vulnerable to this....

They probably really feel like God is somehow protecting them...b/c God hasn't exposed it yet, right???

Maybe they think, in their twisted mind, "God put me here, if He wants me out, He'll do it."

He is moved by faith. This is our hope.



Yes, I agree 100% with what you said in your post! I do believe that there is definitely a spiritual aspect to spiritual abuse. I mean, scripture does say that the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He will do it in any way possible. What a tactic to destroy God's people through the very ones that they should be able to trust! :eek: I have to come to understand why there are so many warnings in scripture about false prophets, false apostles, and false teachers.

Gwen

[aslan903]

To Asian903,

What spiritual abuse have you encountered?

Joe

Joe,

I've encountered it numerous times as a pastor as well as having grown up with it. A genuine encounter with Jesus opened my eyes to the situation and let me know what I wanted in my spiritual experience and what I didn't.

I was raised with the whole fear based, 'God is going to get ya', sending everyone to hell, hate filled, constant church drama, gossip, maliciousness, etc., experience of church. My father, who was a major contributor to it all, finally let me go in my rebellion when I was 17 years old. He took his hands off my throat and exercised the wisdom to leave me alone so that God could deal with me directly.

I truly experienced 'the goodness of God that draws you to repentance'. Yet it only happened after everyone took their religious hands off my throat.

I've watched this sort of thing prevail in the church all of my life. It varies in intensity and severity. I've traveled around the world ministering to people who are caught in this trap. It is difficult at best no matter what level it is occurring on.

Evangelical Christianity is predominantly all about the issues of 'right and wrong', 'good and evil'. The knowledge of 'good and evil' came as some kind of consolation to man's disobedience. God isn't about delineating between right and wrong, good and evil. He is about relationship and true spiritual experience and union with him.

There is so much 'lack of understanding' and mindless theology and religious practices in the evangelical church that I doubt that the world could ever recognize in the church what they would objectively read in the Bible.

I'm not about debate and getting all worked up in my flesh to solve problems of religious practices. My desire is to be about what Jesus was about which was 'doing good'. I'm on no campaign against religion. That is a wasteful effort. I am about what I understand the heart of Jesus was and is and how I'm going to minister to people.

My experience hasn't been from the leadership side of abuse nearly as much as the religious attitudes that show up in churches from all kinds of people. It is disheartening to see how love, grace, mercy, goodness, unity, spiritual growth, kindness, etc., are not what the evangelical church is about for the most part.

I've seen everything from people taking literal beatings in ultra-abusive, cult-like situations to much milder forms of abuse and religious legalism. I believe that all of it is a million miles away from the true heart of God.

[Jerry]

There is so much 'lack of understanding' and mindless theology and religious practices in the evangelical church that I doubt that the world could ever recognize in the church what they would objectively read in the Bible.

I'm not about debate and getting all worked up in my flesh to solve problems of religious practices. My desire is to be about what Jesus was about which was 'doing good'. I'm on no campaign against religion. That is a wasteful effort. I am about what I understand the heart of Jesus was and is and how I'm going to minister to people.

My experience hasn't been from the leadership side of abuse nearly as much as the religious attitudes that show up in churches from all kinds of people. It is disheartening to see how love, grace, mercy, goodness, unity, spiritual growth, kindness, etc., are not what the evangelical church is about for the most part.

I've seen everything from people taking literal beatings in ultra-abusive, cult-like situations to much milder forms of abuse and religious legalism. I believe that all of it is a million miles away from the true heart of God.
Dear Aslan903,,,,
OK,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D now I can say ,,,,,WELCOME ;)
Love jerry

[leesiebella]

[QUOTE=aslan903]You and your husband are going to make it through this and come out with a closer walk with Jesus on the other side.

God will show you a way out of this that you likely never knew was there.

QUOTE]

Thanks Aslan,

Appreciate your words of encouragement... I believe your right!

Nice to meet you....:)

leesiebella

[gwen]

Dear Aslan903,

Thank you for your posts. They did resound in my heart. Lately, I've been meditating a lot on the state of the church...everything from national spiritual leaders, "Christian" television and radio, "Christian" authors, on down to the local church. I grieve over what I see. I have to come to realize that I've experienced spiritual abuse throughout my life in various churches and on various levels. My family got trapped in a very authoritarian Bible-based cult for 10 years. We left there in August 2004. My husband felt that we needed to stay in church, so we started to attend the church that my sister belongs to. Even though we do attend church, I find that my expectations of church are very low. I am trying, but there are a lot of triggers there. I love the Lord with all of my heart and my faith in God is the same...but my faith in "Christian leaders" is very low.

Your statement, "I believe that all of it is a million miles away from the true heart of God.", is exactly what I believe. That's why I grieve.

Gwen

[aslan903]

Gwen,

Its not just controlling, egotistical, abusive pastors that have gone a way that I don't recognize. The church at large has gone there. I see this from the side of a pastor who would really had never wanted to be on the church's payroll, certainly didn't want to control anyone's life (not even my own; I allow God to do that) and wanted to walk in the grace that is the power of salvation and the message of the gospel. Nonetheless, I ran into a lot of church members and pastors who were so legalistic and bound by jealousy, money, power, ego and the like. I would always rather err on the side of showing too much grace, giving to those who need who might not have been all that they purported themselves to be. I hear a lot of talk about dealing with situations and fighting this and fighting that. It just doesn't seem to be in line with what happened to me 30 years ago.

I was raised in strict, religious, mentally and at minimum, spiritually abusive environments. I totally rebelled, drugs, sex, name it. I think when you live by the law and attempt to force others to do likewise, you have to rebel against it. My dad was the main instigator of all this though the church reinforced what he did. I wanted nothing to do with it. Not God, not church and certainly not those people who went there.

My dad had the wisdom (in the midst of all of this) to finally let me go when I was 17. I was truly incorrigable. On top of that, I was 6'3" and a big guy. He couldn't handle me any more. He let me go and let God do what he couldn't accomplish. It only took a few months for God to do his work in my life. I hated church and the people with all their hypocrisy. However, I couldn't resist God's grace.

We had a pastor to come along who showed me love and grace. I hated him for being so nice and loving towards me. I wanted a reason to rebel. Hate-filled, legalistic preachers helped me validate and justify my rebellion. This pastor was different. He was the real deal. I couldn't resist the grace and love that he showed me that God had for me. Like C.S. Lewis, I came crying, kicking and screaming into the Kingdom of God.

I've seen this from both sides. I know my relationship with God is solid. I don't believe that I'll pastor again even though I have opportunity to do so. I think I can be effective in other ways. God causes my path to cross a lot of people who have been hurt by religious abuse. They usually end up in some kind of rebellion in their lives. They are vulnerable to becoming prodigals. I love it when God puts me into their paths to show the love and true mercy that he has for them.

That's where I'm at in my life. I earn a good living without ever depending upon a church to pay my bills. It gives me the freedom to pursue the true heart of Jesus in the way that I want. I want to help people heal and love Jesus again.

[aslan903]

leesiebella,

Good to meet you as well. I think this condition is most obvious in the leadership. It does prevail on almost every level of many churches. I have a very close friend whose name is quite recognizable among Christians throughout the world. I watched as several 'big name' preachers and television personalities, labeled him and accused him of things he never did. He was so messed up by all of this that he was willing to 'confess' and agree with their accusations of sins he never committed. It is and was sick.

I don't where you nor what kind of church you are a part of but I have been around the charismatic movement all of my life. There are things that are so weird some times that I would almost have to say that it looks more like some kind of 'new age' philosophies and teachings than it does anything that comes close to being Biblical.

I was raised in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements. I attended a premier charismatic college and graduated from there in 1982. I've been around this all of my life with my eyes, ears, mind and heart, wide open. I've been around many of the people that you see on TBN and other Chrisitan networks. What I can tell you is, there is a lot of insanity in all of it. I'm not a cynic but I do want to be open and honest. Again, let me say, there is a lot of craziness along with abusiveness that most people wouldn't believe. I've been there and have seen it.

What I want to encourage is that you and your husband keep your eyes on Jesus. He is the author and finisher of your faith. God is making a way for you right now. A way that you likely don't see or even know of. There is a way out but it is a way that God alone can provide for you. Keep your faith high in God, not in man.

God will supply all of your needs according to his riches in his kingdom. God is making a way where there seems to be no way. Just know that. Let your heart feel it. Let your faith rise in knowing that God is taking care of what you can not.

Also, don't get caught in the trap of accusing or battling with flesh and blood. Solidify your faith in what God is doing and is going to do for you and your family. Listen, God is more than enough and more than able to make all things abound towards you. You don't need to help God along. He can handle it. I see your place right now is to get solid with Jesus. I'm sure you've heard it before, but God is up to something big in your life right now. The more intense the storm, the greater the peace will be after the storm.

The intensity of the battle that I fought this past year was seemingly unbearable at times. I ministered to others regarding their breakthrough even when mine seemed a million miles away. I stayed faithful to God and didn't engage in the pettiness of people. My breakthrough came bigger than I ever imagined. It wasn't without a fight of faith and a fight of the Spirit. I held to my character when dealing with others. God honored it all as he will with you.

[Joseph]

To Asian903,

Thank you very much for your reply, it's refreshing to speak with someone that is truly seeking Gods heart. I enjoyed reading your post and I agree with all that you said, I look forward to future conversations, nice to meet you,

Joe

[gwen]

Dear Aslan903,

"Its not just controlling, egotistical, abusive pastors that have gone a way that I don't recognize. The church at large has gone there."

Yes, that is so true. It all grieves me! In the book, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", the authors talk about how abuse doesn't just come from the leaders, but it can come from anyone who is striving for power. It is all so far from the heart of God. But there are those believers who do minister grace and love...I have some in my life right now who are helping me in the healing process. I thank God for them and I see His grace working through them.

"I love it when God puts me into their paths to show the love and true mercy that he has for them."

This is what I love too! To give people hope in God's love...

"I want to help people heal and love Jesus again."

You have already done this in just your short time here on the forum. Your words do minister grace and healing. Thanks!

Gwen

[aslan903]

Gwen and Joseph,

Thank you so much for your comments. This past week, I celebrated 30 years in this walk. Where I came from and what Jesus did for me, is still very fresh in my heart and mind everyday. I never want to lose perspective of what it really is all about. If I die tonight, I will have that fresh grace in my heart and mind. That grace is what gives me strength to deal with the rest.

You have blessed me deeply with your comments.

Thank you again.

Michael

[leesiebella]

Aslan,

I must agree with Joe and Gwen... you have spoke volumes in like, 3 posts!

I really appreciate your sound advice. I know it sounds like I'm all emotional and typing in the fetal position, but, I do have a head on my shoulders. I know the right thing... well at least I know the right person to get my strength from. ;) I know the word of God, I know he has a purpose for me, I know my calling, I know he loves me... even in the midst of all of this.

I have let my emotions just fly in the past few days...just sort of letting it out. Even just today, I had this peace. Unexplainable really.

To be honest, I talk all big here, because it's safe for me. In real life, I am pretty timid when it comes to confrontation. Especially with these people...lots of triggers for me personally...

Even just this afternoon, I had to call the church, looking for husband, and Pastor answered the phone. He was short with me, obviously not interested in speaking with me. My heart started to beat really fast and my stomach began to ache. Like when you're REALLY nervous or scared. The phone call was about 30 seconds long, but I felt that feeling for the next 10 minutes.

Some time maybe I can share my stories.

You sound like a prophet to me. I am printing your comments to put in my bible and a copy for husband.

Seriously, means a lot, THANK YOU for sharing... so glad you decided to stop by!

leesiebella

[gwen]

Even just this afternoon, I had to call the church, looking for husband, and Pastor answered the phone. He was short with me, obviously not interested in speaking with me. My heart started to beat really fast and my stomach began to ache. Like when you're REALLY nervous or scared. The phone call was about 30 seconds long, but I felt that feeling for the next 10 minutes.

Some time maybe I can share my stories.



What you experienced is a totally normal reaction to abuse and intimidation! That was the reaction that I would have every time I talked to our former "pastor" for years! (And I had to deal with him on a daily basis because of the church-school Monday-Friday, then "church" on Sunday, and 9 times out of 10, there was something going on on Saturday that I was expected to be a part of!) I was constantly under stress and my body showed it...I was very susceptible to sickness and I had skin outbreaks that the doctor told me were brought on by stress. A year before we left, I went through 9 months of being plagued with boils. (I'd get one and then it would heal up and a couple of weeks later I'd get another one and that went on for 9 months...I know it had to be stress-related.) Imagine that, "church" and relating to the "pastor" is that stressful????:confused: :eek: :mad:

After we left, my husband and my dad wanted me to write out my stories. I've worked on it off and on for a year now. I would work on it, but then I would get overwhelmed and have to put it aside for awhile. After a year of working on it, I have over 30 pages typewritten (single-spaced)!

Feel free to share your stories...I believe that that helps the healing process to share them. It helps you to process them...I know it has for me.

Gwen