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Zacchaeus
10-27-2005, 04:34 PM
So I took my 8-year old, Josh, for a haircut yesterday and while we waited to be served, we did some serious catching up. Due to my recent workload, we hadn’t spent any real quality time together for a few days, so we started by discussing some ideas for his forthcoming school project about the Romans – I think I’m more excited about it than he is! Then we renewed our debate at some length as to why Batman has a Fighting Skills rating [in Trump Cards] of only 92, when Wolverine has 95! Then, my son crowed over his recent thrashing of me at Jedi Knight – I was half asleep when we played, honest! – which was a bad move on his part as I sincerely regretted having to remind him that I’m still unbeaten at both Halo and Serious Sam! Then we got onto one of our favourite topics: Sarah [or Sazzy as Josh likes to call her], my sixteen-month old daughter, and some of the things she’s taken to doing recently, like standing there with her little hand on the dial of the dish washer, while staring earnestly at mummy (who is desperately trying NOT to wet herself!) with an expression that says: “I think I shouldn’t be doing this, but I’ll just wait for you to tell me to stop!” And my son and I chatted... and we laughed... and chatted some more... and laughed some more... and we did what I suppose most fathers and sons do together; at least that’s how it was with me and my Dad who’s called Arthur by the way.

And then this kind old gentleman, who had just finished having his hair cut came up to me on his way out and said "Do you know you have a wonderful gift for communicating with your son?" Taken somewhat by surprise, I mumbled a rather uncertain "thank you", and the old man left. I looked at the barber with raised eyebrows anticipating a rather laconic, barber-esque response like “never trust over-65s who’ve just had a hair cut. They come over all unpredictable”. But the barber simply smiled at me and said "He's right, you know. You’re so relaxed with your kid, you’re always laughing together. Not like some of the other dads that come in here…"

My son's immediate promotion to the front of the queue spared me any further embarrassment but, perhaps more importantly, gave me the space to reflect on what had just occurred…

My immediate thought was “Wait a minute! I know I’m a good dad, a BLOODY GOOD DAD and a BLOODY GOOD HUSBAND to boot; I pride myself on the time I invest in my marriage and my family because these people mean everything to me, and I’m not ashamed to say THEY ARE MY WORLD”. If I’d said that to the old man, I reckon he might have understood; he may even have read my story in the subtext of the capitalised words – BLOODY GOOD DAD, BLOODY GOOD HUSBAND, and THEY ARE MY WORLD – the story of a young man who does his utmost to find god but succeeds only in finding a thing called Church; settling for the latter, he gives up almost a third of his life believing that this is perhaps god and that maybe a covenant has formed, only to discover through a series of reversals that his covenant with Church is in fact no covenant at all. And, god? Well, the young man can hardly blame somebody he’s never met, right? So, he leaves Church broken and disillusioned and resolves to only ever honour two relationship covenants again: life (marriage) and blood (family). He figures that the only people that matter to him, the only ones he should be answerable to, are those who have truly bound themselves to him by choice or birth and have thus earned the right.

Over the past four years, I have felt at times that my efforts to “build a better life in the here are now” are perhaps an angry response to rejection by the Church; a desire to prove to these people in my past that I can manage without them. But, it wasn’t until a short while after the old man had spoken to me – as my son was nearing the end of his hair cut – that I finally realised where my anger was directed: not at evangelical Christians, that largely repressed bunch of individuals who are mocked and ridiculed by the majority of free-thinking people for their medieval view of the world and who dwell, for the most part, on the fringes of society praying for and awaiting the end of days; good luck to them I say. No. My anger has a more particular target. When I joined the Church back in 1992 I wasn’t looking for friends or a social club, but instead a Particular Somebody. I don’t know why but that Particular Somebody never showed up. For years, I tried to convince myself that he was there, on the edges of my peripheral vision, waiting to show up in a blaze of glory. But the blaze never materialised and when conflict eventually arose I was left, alone with my wife, to fight a rearguard action against the denizens of this peculiar entity known as “God’s Family”

By the time I had arrived at a more convincing riposte than my rather lame “thank you”, the old man had long gone. If he’d stayed though, he would have heard me say: “Wonderful gift? You mean the one from my Dad, Arthur? The Man who raised me as one of seven? The Man who toiled, along with my Mother, to ensure that we were provided for and always had a roof over our heads? You mean a flesh-and-blood REAL Dad. Or, are you perhaps suggesting that I received this gift from the one sometimes called Father to Fatherless (usually by the fatherless) who seems to have an astonishing lack of ideas when he comes across people who have actually been loved, nurtured and fathered from birth. Oh, and if you do see god, which is clearly a gift I do not have, tell him he’s welcome to drop by, in corporeal form of course, any time; I’d be only too happy to pass on to him one or two of the things I picked up about fatherhood and covenant from a REAL Dad.”

It was getting late; we’d been in the barbers for nearly an hour and a half, and having arrived so suddenly at this new perspective, I could easily have slid into some kind of angry depression. But, my son, pleased with his new hair cut, and yet perceptive to a change in my mood, made one of those childlike yet deeply profound observations: “You’re my bestest Daddy in the world…” (he paused for thought, then smiled) “Actually you’re my only Daddy.”

Sometimes, all we have is ALL we have.

Carmen
10-28-2005, 04:40 AM
Hi Zacchaeus,

Not quite sure what you're getting at, but God is your Daddy too, even when he doesn't show up. I saw that you were formerly in a Pentecostal church, they always expect God to show up. I am content not to "feel his presence". He is always there and always ready to listen to us and feed us. Actually he likes it quite a lot. He is not a sugar daddy but a very good one nevertheless.

Carmen

Willow
10-28-2005, 10:35 AM
Zaccheus... your story touched me in a deep spot. Thanks for sharing! I think your story should be published. (have you considered that?) in something like a reader's digest publication.

Zacchaeus
10-29-2005, 04:05 AM
Thanks Willow,

I wasn’t sure whether to post this story in the forum or just leave it on my blog as some of the views expressed are clearly those of some one who no longer believes – or, at best, is not sure what he believes – so I was conscious of offending people’s faith. In fact, I was about to pull it from the site when you wrote your comments. Now, the more I think about it – even though I consider myself a Person Recovering from Christianity, rather than a Christian in Recovery – the story is still about church, and may resonate with others here, so I am happy to let it rest.

Best wishes,

Zac (Joe) :)

Jerry
10-29-2005, 05:20 AM
Dear Zacc,,,
I can see God in your post.For someone denying Christianity they set a pretty good example.The old man compelled to comment.The Barber smiling approval,,,,,,,,,,,Many Christians forget that often we are the only Jesus that someone else has ever seen ;)
Love Jerry

Joseph
10-29-2005, 07:18 AM
Hi Zac,

It's good that you made this post.
I can understand why, when people are let down by the church, they are faced with a decision of which way to go. It's a fine line, do I follow God or not? This is a place where no matter what happens, is supposed to be a place of refuge, trust and caring, and it was none of that, just about everyone here has "been there, done that" at alot of different levels. Angry is a normal reaction, I was angry for a long time, I had lost everything at one point, I was going down fast. Believe me, I was looking to make somebody pay, but what I found out as time went on was what my perception of how things were supposed to be was all distorted and that played a big part in my distorted views when I left. The devil is the master of confusion, no doubt, he works on very subtle levels, he doesn't have to destroy someone, he just has to get you to turn your back on God. All the time I used to wrestle with, "why do some people have so much and they don't believe in God or go to church" and I beleive this is so because in a spiritual sense, they are of the world, and if your good at what you do you can be successful and have all you want, God is there for you if you look, and he has also given you free will to make your own choices, but alot of people put him on the backshelf because they are enjoying the amenities of life right now. On the other hand the devil doesn't care, these people are not a threat as long as they are
not seeking God in their life. I'm not saying that any of this applies to your situation, I do know that God is there for you any everybody regardless of what youv'e been through. I found in my own experience that my departure from the church was my jumping off point, my real beginning of my relationship with God, I had to either walk away or put my trust in him, all my trust. At that point I realized that there was no halfway point, I had to completely trust him, it has worked out great.
I am 43 with a daughter, 12, she is everything and more to me and she loves Jesus.
I am divorced and I lost everything that I felt was important in the last three years except my daughter, I'm talking about my company, wife, house, car and I even had a period of two months when my doctor thought I was dying of cancer. Of course I hold a certain responsibility in this mess and I allowed myself to be led when I was most vulnerable by bad people, when I was down and out and looking for help, they took what was left. But I did make my choice to follow Jesus, but educate myself by reading what was in the Bible to see what the real deal was, then I started discovering how severly I was being mislead, then I started putting things back together Gods way. What happened to you is not your fault, its crazy whats going on in the churches today, but its not Gods fault either, people have freewill to distort anything they put their hands too if they want. If you were God, would you show up in your church? God sees peoples hearts and you see how these people treated you and your family, this is why God speaks about how if you're a spiritual leader and you mislead people your in big trouble, unfortunately people in the congregation sometimes buy into the leadership and act like them, if they are a part of abuse they are also at fault.
Listen Zac, nobody has the right to critisize or judge you for whatever decision you make whether you follow Jesus or not, Christians have to start looking in a mirror and fix themselves and stop trying to fix everyone else, read the Bible and be strong individually in Christ, you are the prophet, priest and king of your home, take care of your family, take care of them and there salvation, and don't worry about what anyone is saying or doing.
Real Christians will be there as non judgemental friends no matter where you're at in your life.
I found freedom for the first time when I started to focus on Christ, one on one, and I allowed the Bible to speak to me as an individual, and through that I teach my daughter, and she will grow up knowing the truth and won't have to experience what we did because she'll have a strong individual relationship with Christ, not a church.

(Disclaimer- I am not denouncing all churches, simply the state of the churches that are promoting the abuse, using Gods name to further their own wants and desires apart from the Bible and misleading and hurting Gods people)

Sheep
10-29-2005, 04:09 PM
Zac,

Your story was very moving! God is not in a church, but lives in people like you and me.

Baa...

Sheep

Willow
10-29-2005, 05:43 PM
Zac,

I didn't get to read all the other responses yet... but your reply to me resonated with my deepest feelings that the labels and expectations we have for god may not be realistic. Your communication with your son, the recognition of the sacred moment by others. To me... that's more god than trying to find a lightning bolt in a church service. I have had some lightning bolt moments... but still small voice moments seem to be the rule.

In my church experience, I was also left alone and abandoned in my moment of need. I expected help since I'd given 100% for so many years. The very fact that they didnt' help... couldn't help... enlightened me to the fact that had not taken full responsibility for my life. I was expecting the church to carry part of my life for me in repayment for me carrying part of their life. It didn't work like that and I got a lesson that has helped me ever since. I am responsible for ME and nobody else. Was god in that enlightenment? Was he with me in the time of rejection? I can't truly tell. I came out of it with a bag full of wisdom though. Anything I give nowadays is above and beyond what I need in order to survive. That way it is truly a gift with no expectations or needs of mine attached.

That's kinda how it worked for me. Painful but helpful. I could possibly see god working through that kind of scenario...

Zacchaeus
10-29-2005, 06:26 PM
Jerry, Joseph, Sheep, Willow

Hi and thanks for all your contributions. It’s clear to me that you all very much have one thing in common – faith; a faith which perhaps enables you Jerry to “see God” in my post, though I see two men – neither of whom I can claim to know – who are, at worst, expressing an opinion and at best, showing kindness; does god have the monopoly on kindness? A faith, Joseph, which allows you to suggest that the “devil” may be behind the events of five years ago [yes, five, not four as I originally thought – gosh, doesn’t time fly!], while I would be more inclined to simply say that a group of church leaders tried to control me. It would have worked had I been heavily co-dependent, but by the end I wasn’t, so it didn’t; if I did wish to follow a “biblical” path [which I really don’t], wouldn’t Job’s story reveal who was ultimately responsible for his suffering? A faith, Sheep, which compels you to declare that God “lives in people like you and me”, when the best response I can give to such an admirable sentiment is "I can’t prove to you that he doesn’t but you can’t really prove to me that he does", which I guess is quite frustrating – for me at least. And Willow, do you think the god of the bible ever thinks to himself, while he sits there watching the world, “things would be so much easier for them if I just popped down and said hello in unquestionable fashion. Why don't I just do that already?” Is such a thing so unrealistic for God?

Please excuse me if my comments seem terse, even mildly patronising. They’re not meant to be – your own contributions were so sincere – it’s just I have a tendency to be overly pragmatic where god is concerned these days.

Best wishes,

Zac :confused:

Joseph
10-29-2005, 08:41 PM
Hi Zac,

Listen, you sound like your in a tough spot, alot of indecision. I don't think there is anything I could say to make you feel better, but if you would like to talk more keep writing or send one of us a private message. I hope you find what you want.

Joe

Jerry
10-29-2005, 09:07 PM
Dear Zacc,,,
Is your post expressing God,,, or is your post expressing the better side of yourself ????? A valid case can be made either way ;) ....Also either way I am pleased that you did not delete it :D
Love Jerry

Willow
10-30-2005, 07:49 PM
Hey Zac,

I feel like I kinda pissed you off. I apologize. I wish I could answer your question. I'm in the same boat you are and have more questions than answers these days.

Zacchaeus
10-31-2005, 12:09 PM
Hey guys,

I really appreciate your comments and your sensitivity; it speaks volumes about you all. Thanks.

Zac :)

PS: Do you know of any good forums where people - who perhaps want to believe in god but for whatever reason are finding it hard - can discuss the whole area of faith in a frank, open and honest way? A kind of Agnostics Anonymous, that might be helpful for some one in my position?

Jerry
10-31-2005, 01:37 PM
Hey guys,

I really appreciate your comments and your sensitivity; it speaks volumes about you all. Thanks.

Zac :)

PS: Do you know of any good forums where people - who perhaps want to believe in god but for whatever reason are finding it hard - can discuss the whole area of faith in a frank, open and honest way? A kind of Agnostics Anonymous, that might be helpful for some one in my position?
Dear Zac,,,
Go download MSN messenger and add me,,,,,,,,,,,I look foreward to some heated discissions :eek: :D
Love Jerry

Willow
11-01-2005, 09:29 AM
Zacc,

If you find a site like that... please share it here. I need a good dose of honesty.

gwen
11-01-2005, 10:20 AM
I've been reading this thread and haven't commented on it because I didn't really know what to say. I have my personal faith in God, basically because of what is within my own heart. However, lately, I've had my faith shaken because everything that I've been taught over the last several years, I have found out is all heresy. (I came out of kingdom theology doctrine, which is very widespread throughout the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement today.) So now I'm struggling with the question, "what is truth?" Oh, a lot of people say, "The scriptures"...well, yes, but how do you deal with things when people have twisted the scriptures to meet their own agenda? My dad has told me for years, "People can make the Bible say anything they want it to say." And I have found that they can do it very convincingly.

In one post, Zac, you said something about God just "popping down here", and I thought about that. He did come here...through Jesus (Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father")...and what did men do to him? They crucified him! I see God through his people...but finding his people can sometimes be a difficult thing. They are usually in the least expected places.

Gwen

Willow
11-01-2005, 12:44 PM
Hey Gwen,

I don't know if this well help or harm... but you are welcome to look at my theological ramblings on my blog. It's some weird stuff sometimes... but I"m sorting through and letting myself ask all kinds of questions... no matter how heretical they seem. Anyway... it's at aaronsbeard.blogspot.com

Take the meat and spit out the bone! I'm just showing you how I've processed some of this stuff... and then I put it on the shelf for awhile. It's caused a bit of a split in my spirituality... acutally... my church disappointment caused the split... but it's an honest split and I think it's healthy. I was part of charismania too.

gwen
11-02-2005, 12:16 PM
Hi Willow,

I went to your blog and read through some of your recent posts. Thanks for sharing that with me. I like your honesty! :) I've seen so many people with their plastic faces and their pat "black & white" answers that it makes me sick! (And yes, I've been guilty of putting on the plastic face and giving "black & white" answers myself.) Now I've reached a point in my life where I have more questions than answers.

Love, Gwen

Willow
11-02-2005, 02:20 PM
Gwen,

I'm glad it was helpful to you. It's really upsetting to some people when I ask questions like that... but I'm not trying to blaspheme... just explore.

Amy

gwen
11-02-2005, 02:29 PM
I liked what you said on (I think) your April 7, 2005 post, "I love to dig for answers. Believing because someone told me to believe is not enough." I used to be the kind of person who just believed because someone told me...I wasn't a "digger" for answers. Since being "burned" by a cult, I'm learning to dig for the answers. And I'm finding that I have a lot of questions that I'm no longer willing to just accept what someone tells me.

I guess that makes us "seekers for the truth", wouldn't you say? :)

Gwen

Carmen
11-02-2005, 02:45 PM
Hi Willow,

Checked out your blog, too. :) Hey if you don't ask questions how are you going to get any answers? Keep asking!

Carmen

Willow
11-02-2005, 05:17 PM
Wow Gwen... Did I say that? LOL! I guess I better go read my own blog!
I haven't written in awhile I have a dream blog too where I write my dreams. I just haven't had time to keep it going. This winter will bring me more indoor time I suspect.

Carmen... Thanks!!!