Where do ex-fundamentalists go? [Archive] - Christian Recovery Forums

profnachos

10-24-2005, 08:29 PM

On the Internet as well as my life outside the cyberspace, I have run into many ex-fundamentalists who fall into the three distinct groups

- Those who still embrace the basic tenets of Christianity, yet out of church. Most participants of this forum fall into this category. We are still licking the wounds inflicted in the church, yet still desperately hang onto our belief and some even have come closer to God.

- People who have left for a different, yet established brand of Christianity after rejecting fundamentalism. I am acquainted with a few of them and in their cases, they now call the Orthodox Church their home. I attended some of their services out of curiosity. Most of their motives, base on what I have seen are more or less reactive to what they saw in the evangelical community. There have been a lot of people who have done just that, Francis Schaeffer's son being the most famous ex-evangelical to have embraced the Orthodox Church.

- Lastly, those who have renounced Christ all together. I browsed through this forum called "Walk Away From Fundamentalism (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319472) ." Almost all participants are not just ex-fundamentalists, but ex-Christians as well. I think it's a bit misleading to call themselves ex-fundamentalists.

This past weekend, I got to see a movie called "The God Who Was not There." It is a documentary styled after Mike Moore's F 9/11 challenging the very historocity of Jesus. It was made by an ex-fundamentalist named Brian Flemming. He is rejecting Christ on an intellectual basis, but I can still hear the hurts and bitterness in his voice. Does raise some very provocative points though.

In summary, I just have not found much hope apart this forum for ex-fundamentalists. The Orthodox church is not an option for me. If you think fundamentalist churches are too "churchy," you ain't seen nothin' yet. This is not to say the church is abusive, but if you have a strong anti-establishment bent like I do, then the Orthodox church is the last place you want to go.

Then there are ex-Christians. Lots of them. I have seen too much evidence of God's presence in my life to renounce him all together.

Well, this got to be long. I love this group, but I guess I still long for fellowship in my life. But there does not seem to be too many options out there.

Tim

10-24-2005, 09:22 PM

A well-written book you may find interesting and helpful to find out where ex-fundamentalists go is Stefan Ulstein's Growing Up Fundamentalist: Journeys in Legalism & Grace .

Ulstein interviewed people who grew up in fundamentalist homes and churches(as I did). Some left the church. Others have a robust, but changed, faith. Many struggled with broken families, homosexuality, sexual abuse, addictions, depression, and the effects of war.

Here are a few quotes from the personal interviews in the book:

In the fundamentalist church you have to keep everything hidden...otherwise, you would have to admit failure

[My fundamentalist parents] don't have any friends. They have acquaintances, but not friends. Having friends would require being open and vulnerable. They would have to drop the veil

The bottom line was always to take the hard line. To soften, or question, was to go against God. 'The Bible says it, so I believe it'

I'm learning that the Christian life isn't based on doing the 'right' thing or following a list. Sometimes we don't know what the right thing is, and having a list of behaviors to check off just confuses things.

There's a tendency among fundamentalists to withdraw love, money, recognition or support when someone makes a mistake

I learned that what you say and what you do are different, and learned to live two lives. There was the real me and the me that sat in the church pew week after week, listening obediently to all that drivel

I hated our fundamentalist church and I don't believe I got one positive thing from it. Does anyone stay in fundamentalism? It seems like everyone that I grew up with left as soon as they were old enough. Fundamentalists alienate so many people!

Every person on this earth has a spark. It might be a skill, an aptitude, or a way of relating to people. If people feel safe, they can blossom. That was what the fundamentalists couldn't do. They couldn't let us feel safe.

mstar

10-24-2005, 09:31 PM

I haven't been an active "poster" on this sight for very long, but have been reading and keeping up with the development of this movement since the Lord put the book "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" in front of me, (Here look at this) in a Christian book store in the MUSIC section, where at the time, I would only go. I was in such bad shape from proof texting and condemnation from false leaders, I could not walk into the book section. I could not read Christian books or The Bible. I used to love the Word of God.

The book bore witness with what God had been trying to get through my head. I then started reading Jeff Von. 's works shortly after. I guess this was '97 or '98. Walked from the crazies and have been on the "fringe" of American culture churches ever since.

At first I was constantly asking, writing (I even wrote Johnson's "Church Of The Open Door") for the name of a good church around here. Went to several, learned, but ultimately left dry.

Finally came to the conculsion that, what the Lord had been trying to teach me was, if we are His children, then we are a part of Him and He is within us, thus we are ALREADY part of the growing "Kingdom Of God". This world is passing away. Otherwise we are already there, only in a dimensions that we cannot see, only feel in our hearts. If we are saved, we are all part of the Body of Jesus Christ, with Him as the Head.

Otherwise we are there already and we can rest in that completed work. We are all on His boat with Him as the Capt., charting our course to a successful completion.

The true work of a New Testament believer is to rest (to trust) in Him, and let Him do the work.

Since He got that into my thick head (I still struggle to fight the fight of faith) I have had more peace about not being in an American culture church every Sunday morning.

He has been faithful to bring other "misplaced" believers into my life, so the "one another" principle has worked out. If he leads me to another church, I will go. (trying to get out of a sick church hubby is playing music in now)

God has been enough, he has supplied needs, He gives me the manna of His Word when it is needed. He has caused me to grow.. .never will be perfect in this realm, but He has been faithful. He really is enough.

So where do ex-fundamentalists go? Hopefully to be "In Christ". This world is fading.

and yeah you do get lonely, but I think that's just part of the deal.

profnachos

10-24-2005, 09:32 PM

Thanks Tim.

Does the book offer any hope? If it dwells on the negativity, I don't think I should read it. There's enough of that. Nobody needs to tell me how horrible fundamentalism is. I would like to hear more about those who ended up with a robust and changed faith.

A well-written book you may find interesting and helpful to find out where ex-fundamentalists go is Stefan Ulstein's Growing Up Fundamentalist: Journeys in Legalism & Grace .

Ulstein interviewed people who grew up in fundamentalist homes and churches(as I did). Some left the church. Others have a robust, but changed, faith. Many struggled with broken families, homosexuality, sexual abuse, addictions, depression, and the effects of war.

Here are a few quotes from the personal interviews in the book:

In the fundamentalist church you have to keep everything hidden...otherwise, you would have to admit failure

[My fundamentalist parents] don't have any friends. They have acquaintances, but not friends. Having friends would require being open and vulnerable. They would have to drop the veil

The bottom line was always to take the hard line. To soften, or question, was to go against God. 'The Bible says it, so I believe it'

I'm learning that the Christian life isn't based on doing the 'right' thing or following a list. Sometimes we don't know what the right thing is, and having a list of behaviors to check off just confuses things.

There's a tendency among fundamentalists to withdraw love, money, recognition or support when someone makes a mistake

I learned that what you say and what you do are different, and learned to live two lives. There was the real me and the me that sat in the church pew week after week, listening obediently to all that drivel

I hated our fundamentalist church and I don't believe I got one positive thing from it. Does anyone stay in fundamentalism? It seems like everyone that I grew up with left as soon as they were old enough. Fundamentalists alienate so many people!

Every person on this earth has a spark. It might be a skill, an aptitude, or a way of relating to people. If people feel safe, they can blossom. That was what the fundamentalists couldn't do. They couldn't let us feel safe.

mstar

10-24-2005, 09:47 PM

where is my post. . . I worked hard on that post. . . oh there it is. I think we hit the "submit" button at the same time.

Tim

10-24-2005, 09:53 PM

Zoe

10-25-2005, 06:00 AM

Hi Prof,

I'm one of those ex-Christians. I don't know what else to call myself. I only knew Christianity as a fundamentalist, conservative, born-again evangelical. I walked away from all of that. I simply don't know if I believe any of it anymore. I'm not sure how to be any "other" kind of Christian, though, I have met in my healing/recovery journey many people who call themselves Christians who call themselves, moderates, liberals & progressives, though not necessarily believing the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God...in other words, they are not literalists.

I don't know how to be any other Christian then I was, so for me, it's honest for me to simply call myself an ex-Christian & I am also an ex-fundamentalist. Being an ex-fundamentalist came first.

I can't say that I have "left" Christianity because I am anti-God, or reject Christ. That simply isn't the case. For some of us, the possibility of leaving Christianity may not have so much to do with leaving God or even Christ. It's being in a position for the first time in our lives of stepping outside the box we were once in, the one where we were warned to stay in no matter what. Fear kept us there. Now, for me, since walking away from fundamentalism, there is no fear. Actually, more peace then ever.

Having said that, I am in a position where I struggle with fitting in on Christian forums. I'm not sure I belong there anymore...but I'm fighting through that idea because it seems an "us vs. them" hold-over from my Christian experience.

SpinningHead

10-25-2005, 08:00 AM

I think we've all heard that "Christian" means Christ-like. The idea of that has always stayed with me b/c I have always been able to discern with that idea. It does not mean "pastor-like" or "church-like" or "main-stream-thinking-like".

In this forum we can look at everything that was done to us by these people but we can't ignore our own responsibility for our spiritual lives.

<<<Caution: May Trigger>>>

This is not a fly-by sermon.

We go wrong...I've gone wrong... when we look to the pastor/church as representing our faith or beliefs. When that belief/faith shatters b/c we find out X about this person/organization...we are destroyed as apposed to being wounded.

I really, really worried that what happened to us would shatter my newbie Christian husband's faith. He is so young in Christ. But the experiences he had personally with the Holy Spirit were so real and amazing and overpowering...he feels sorry for this church for missing the point. :eek: What the man teaches me everyday about my faith, I tell ya!

The Bible does tell us that God would not allow anything to separate Him from us. But I wonder sometimes if we're the ones who would allow a pastor/church to separate us from him?

Now, seriously...I hope that I haven't ruffled any feathers...but we can't have a reasonable conversation & ignore certain points. Everything must be looked at & weighed...I've been looking a lot at my own attitudes/reactions to what's happened to me both during and after our ordeal. Will I let my hurts paralyze me from the real relationship I can have with Jesus? Will I shy away from His love for me because someone else hurt me? Honestly, I hurt and I question that every day. ((little bit of transparency there...))

I don't know what to say to people who've left the faith and abandoned God altogether. I hurt for them. I don't know if they missed it or rejected it... I do believe that God is saddened for their hurts. I am. I do know I have my own heart to deal with every day and if I can help someone else during the day...hey! bonus!

Doug64

10-25-2005, 08:27 AM

Hi:

I can relate to a lot of the comments posted on this subject.

I wonder if another category should be added to the prof's list:
Those who left a fundamentalist church to join another (similar/dissimilar) fundamentalist church.

What my wife and I have observed is that those who left our former church over the years pretty much fell into those categories. Some joined/formed a new group with similar beliefs, some joined a group with somewhat different beliefs, and some joined no group either holding to belief in God or denouncing Him to some degree.

Doug

Leslie

10-25-2005, 11:05 AM

Today on Dennis Prager's radio show he interviewed Bishop John Shelby Spong of the Episcopal Chruch. The topic was the guest's new book, "The Sins of Scripture...". He also authored a book titled "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture"

I am guessing at the contents, and not endorsing them, just passing the titles along. They might hold some interesting insights.

Leslie

mstar

10-25-2005, 11:46 AM

I felt a "nudge" or an "insight" this a.m. from the Lord, that the problem with my former attitude that I HAD to find a good Church, group ect. was I had a made an "idol" out of that good church, group, ect. Otherwise if I can finally "fit" into this group, then I am O.K. That is idolity. Anytime you look to anything other that Christ as the source of your life and your identity, that other source has become an idol.

I can't answer those who have left fundamentism and have thrown in Christ in the package as well.

In my life He was working to deliver me and teach me that the 'hard line' fundamentalist attitude is not His Nature and did not represent His Heart. We were really intenched in it too. It almost "shipwreaked my faith".

Leslie

10-25-2005, 09:33 PM

I know that for me the desire to find a nonabusive church is not idolatry. I personally don't seem to have the freedom to simply walk away. With my husband's insistance on staying there, my memory there won't fade into the past. Even if I left, I don't think I'd get the distance I suspect that I need from it to get over it.

I think we should be a little careful about generalizations like "anytime someone does (x or y) it IS idolatry" (previous post). I appreciate the tone of concern and conviction, Mstar, and you may or may not be right, but the question we can't answer for others (which you were not doing, I know) :) , or even for ourselves sometimes, is were they truly doing that which you suggested is idolatrous? (Were they seeking their identity in a group, or merely longing for connection? The Bible itself says we are wired for connection and relationships. Feeling that deeply does not mean idolatry. Please don't think I'm minimizing your personal impression about your own life. You know your heart, and I'm glad that what you gleaned seems helpful to you. (God bless you in that.)

And since the picture of Christ's body itself is a group of people, I think it's not a stretch to say that we become our selves (in a practical way) when we ARE in relationship with others. If I am not relating to others, I miss out on them, on who I am as a relational being, and on the growth that relationships cause.

No offense meant,
Leslie

profnachos

10-25-2005, 10:40 PM

Tim: Thanks again. One of my favorite authors Phil Yancey has mentioned that book quite a few times in his essays and talks about it extensively in his book "What Is So Amazing About Grace"? So I think I will go ahead and pick up a copy. Based on the reviews on Amazon.com, it appears that it will be a good resource for ex-fundamentalist Christians looking for a new direction.

mstar: Thanks for sharing. I still think being part of the Body of Christ is still important. That is why we are here, are we not?

Zoe: Thanks for sharing. I don't want to go down that road and call myself an ex-Christian, but then again, some of the things I am thinking through would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. Reading your posting remind me of something about how I used to think. I will do that in a seperate posting.

Spinnng: Perhaps what has happened is a blessing in disguise, not to just sound out a cliche. Instead of being worked into the mindless framework for the next ten years, your hubby has seen it for what is it and refuses to go along with it. That, as a new Christian, is simply remarkable. He will be dismissed as a "immature" Christian or misguded intellectual, but I wish you and him well.

Doug: Well, leaving one fundamentalist church for another still makes them fundamentalists, doesn't it? That is juming from one frying pan to another, or worse yet, into the fire. So I don't see how that should be considered "ex-funeamentalists."

Leslie: I agree.

profnachos

10-25-2005, 10:55 PM

profnachos

10-25-2005, 11:04 PM

Might as well throw in one more.

Was told to find a "woman of God" with a heart of submission. Wrote off so many intelligent and independent thinking women in pursuit of the Stepford wife type.

LOL.

j elohim

10-26-2005, 02:20 AM

Does the book offer any hope? If it dwells on the negativity, I don't think I should read it. There's enough of that. Nobody needs to tell me how horrible fundamentalism is. I would like to hear more about those who ended up with a robust and changed faith.

Have you found or even seen anyone with a 'robust and changed faith' ? (Faith in Yeshua (Jesus))

Carmen

10-26-2005, 05:34 AM

One of the postings below somehow reminded of some of the foolish exercises I used to go through as an fundamentalist.

"born again"
You gotta be born again. That means, there has to be a defining moment during which one accepts the Lord in this his/her heart as his/her Lord and Savior.

So I scoured through the Bible to see when the disciples might have done it. When did they pray the "sinner's prayer"? I and people in my discipleship group argued about it for hours. We concluded that they did it when they had a visitation from Jesus after he rose from the Dead.

That is just one example of how I tried to squeeze everything into the framework I was told to believe in and stay in.
I think that there is room for argument on this point. There has to be a moment when one becomes filled with the Holy Spirit after being given faith and professing it in one way or another. All I did upon hearing the gospel was say "Yes" and that was the moment that the HS entered me. Of course I cannot judge others and say it didn't happen to them when they insist it did. That is God's job, at the end those that have faith and those that don't are separated at his command and go their separate ways. We don't decide, he does.

"The inerrancy of Scripture."
That became just as important as the sinner's prayer and anyone who doubts or questions it should seriously ask whether they are saved or not.

And that became a litmus test for me. I wrote off anyone who did not profess the inerrancy of Scripture.
I agree that this is one of the big mountains to get over for fundies. I don't blame those for holding onto it as a security blanket, but try to encourage them to hold on to God instead. Some of Paul's opinions that he stated as such are treated as commands. Other times I think he judged situations that we do not encounter these days, you just can't apply them now. He had no idea that Jesus would wait at least 2000 years before returning. If so, he might have phrased things differently. Also, I think that a few verses have been manipulated so as to manipulate believers. But that is just my opinion.

"Evangelism"
Sharing the good news with a non-Christian is the most loving act possible. Anything other than that is just cheap and worthless. Yeah, Mother Teresa does some good things, but since she does not share the Four Spiritual Laws, everthing she does is futile.

Looking back, it is just laughable. I envision this picture of a bunch of mental and spiritual midgets talking trash to a giant in this case being Mother Teresa.

Virtually everything that I held sacred looks now like a badly botched joke. And I am not laughing.
I agree with you here too. I still think that the Gospel is of utmost importance and it is the mission of the church to spread it (this is not synonymous with the modern term "Great Commission" as it has been misused lately by Billy Graham and co.), and that everything else is secondary yet still important. We must help, feed and clothe those that need it, especially but not exclusively those with faith, but telling everyone the gospel was a command, not an option, in my opinion. That is why I distinguish between evangelism and evangelisation. The first is what Jesus intended, the last is what too many are doing today. I found an article about it at:
Part 1: http://www.intotruth.org/globalism/WCM1.html
Part 2: http://www.intotruth.org/globalism/WCM2.html
Part 3: http://www.intotruth.org/globalism/WCM3.html

The inerrancy of Scripture seems to be the greatest factor together with born-again. I can tell others that I am born-again, but if I then tell them that I no longer believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, then they write me off as not born-again. I can't list my site on some Christian search engines because of that! They think that Christian=neo evangelical, which is not the case. I am prepared to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say they are Christian. That does not mean instant trust and complete openness and frienship. That is only the framework in which to start inquiring. Trust can come later if it is earned. "Time discovers truth." - Seneca.

Jerry

10-26-2005, 06:48 AM

Zoe

10-26-2005, 08:47 AM

Leslie

10-26-2005, 10:34 AM

How about "solo scriptura as the authority on life and faith?"as a misused doctrine?
I would say, fine on the "faith", but the Bible has not convinced me of being the exhaustive authority on "life".

"Solo scriptura" can be used as milleau control. It can illegitimize knowledge from other domains, like psychology and psychiatry, areas that the Bible doesn't say a lot about. Of course this doctrine elevates the importance of pastor/teachers' role, since it excludes other worthy approaches to solving problems and the knowledge that other disciplines bring to bear.

If God is the author of all truth, I don't think true things from other disciplines need to be dismissed. I've seen one family I know suffer because they illegitimized the physical aspect of the new mom's postpartum depression, encouraging her to conquer it with scripture only. The child spent his first year plus with a depressed mom and reaped the consequences in his development. Very sad! And all in the name of God.

Willow

10-26-2005, 12:48 PM

This ex-fundamentalist goes to a biker bar :)
They have a pretty narrow view on life... some of them. Thing is though... it's the most accepting crowd of people I've ever found in the face-to-face world. I even tried to smoke pot with one of them. puff... choke!

InTheory

10-26-2005, 01:32 PM

Prof, I gotta say that I am in a similar dilemna.

I have pretty much cast off evangelicalism, inerrancy, etc, but still believe in Christ, and many essentials.

I have seen so much of the workings of the "machine," or more aptly put, I've seen the man behind the curtain, that I cannot make the move to attend a church service right now (much less join a "church").

I do have some fellowship with likeminded believers (just a few but precious).

It's tough...it's different...but I DO feel free for the first time in my life.

-Dan the disenfranchised

jane

10-26-2005, 01:34 PM

mstar-

I can only speak on my own experience, and I too felt that part of my problem was wanting the aproval of man and making the "vision" of our church my idol.

It was about a year or so before we left when I started asking my closest friend, "do you feel like we are playing church?"

I was so convicted and yet to confess such a conviction meant going against "the vision of the church" so the dilemna that I was in was quite perplexing.

I remember hearing God (or believing it was the presense of the Holy spirit prodding me to think) say, "Choose this day whom you will serve" as the pastor was preaching. I was stunned, surely I was serving God by doing all these things, but I knew the truth in my heart. I was serving an idol.

I was serving an image that I had allowed myself to create. I had a wonderful husband, beautiful children, perfect church attendance, mastered christianese, lead a few ministries- on the way to eldership as that was my goals....

but the real me inside was screaming to come out and be who I was made to be.

When I looked in the mirror I knew that I was not serving God in spirit and in truth.

I was attempting to create an artificial security- complete with a white pickett fence.

I am grateful to God because I believe that He lead us out of that lie.

I just don't know yet what this whole thing means for us. I do believe that I love Jesus and long to serve Him- I am just not convinced that my view of him is anything more than an illusion that was part of my image.

"it is unfolding" is a comment that my husband keys a lot.

So, where do we go from fundamentalism? I don't know.

My hope is that as it unfolds that I will be closer to Christ and more of the person that He made me to be. My hope is to go from strength to strength in my life and not from the things that keep me in bondage to death.....

I honestly don't know. I do beleive that fellowship is important Nachos- real life face to face human contact is a vitale need of humanity.

I just don't believe that a dysfunctional lie is a source of that need.... and I do believe that an unhealthy group of fellowship is more distructive than none...

so I too seek,
and enjoy the thought provoking posts that begin here.

jane

Jerry

10-26-2005, 02:48 PM

At least it was a "pan" of worms & not a can of worms. :D
HAHAHAHA ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Look at this!!!!!! what a great "God Shot" pan of worms,can of worms,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see how easy a mistake(typo) can be made ???? ;) Do ya really think that the "Scribes" over the course of 6 to 8 thousand years,never made an error?????????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D of course not,,,,only an absolute moron would believe they were perfect :) Father,,,,,,,,thanks for the typo :D
Love Jerry

SpinningHead

10-26-2005, 02:58 PM

I anticipate the responces to this post with glee :D I am gonna open a real pan of worms here. This whole question of "Born Again" is a result of the transliteration of the text of John 3 verses 5 ,,,,oh to about verse 10 or so.There is no such thing as "Born Again" To translate and not "Transliterate"in the Greek text the proper word is "Borne" and not "Born".So in verse 5 what does "Borne" of water mean ??????? Ladys,you can answer this,,,,,,,what happens when you deliver a baby ??????? Thats how the flesh vessel arrives.......How does the "Soul" of man arrive ????? It is "Borne" from Heaven by the Holy Spirit. So when Christ says to Nicodemus "unless one is BORNE again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" He means,,,,,,,(paraphraised) Nicodemus unless you embrace a spirit of renewal "Borne" to you from heaven,you can not recognise who "I" am.
Now I know this will upset many,,,,,,,,,,,oh well,,,,that can't change the truth ;)
Love Jerry

ok...I'm upset. ;)

Let's look at what we're talking about...shall we?

John 3 (NIV - feel free to quote any other versions)
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

Another great book I've read is "When Bad Christians Happen to Good People" by Dave Burchett. Anyone read it?

One of the points he makes is with regards to Christianese...the phrase "born again" being one of them. We get so caught up in the term, we wear it like a badge of honor or accomplishment, something we proudly display and look down upon others who don't wear their salvation like some cloak of a secret sect...pathetically, we forget what Jesus is saying.

Leslie

10-26-2005, 03:09 PM

Since a lot of orthodoxy and fundamentals do derive from scripture, I think the question of canonicity becomes very important. Another option is to question the validity of grammatical exegesis which always seems to so focus on the micro that it misses the macro, like "is this passage normative?". And I have no problem respecting grammar, but I've seen so many points made from particular verb tense and the like! I thought Moises Silva did a helpful treatment of overinterpreting scripture in his God, Language an Scripture A number of people on here would probably also like his Has the Chruch Misread the Bible? I should reread the former.

Leslie

Jerry

10-26-2005, 03:21 PM

Yes Spinninghead,,,,
Jesus was astounded that Nicodemus did not ,or pretended not,to understand what He was saying............In Hebrew the actual passage would read,,,"Borne from above and of the waters"..........:D
Love Jerry

Zoe

10-26-2005, 03:47 PM

HAHAHAHA ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Look at this!!!!!! what a great "God Shot" pan of worms,can of worms,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see how easy a mistake(typo) can be made ???? ;) Do ya really think that the "Scribes" over the course of 6 to 8 thousand years,never made an error?????????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D of course not,,,,only an absolute moron would believe they were perfect :) Father,,,,,,,,thanks for the typo :D
Love Jerry
;)

j elohim

10-26-2005, 05:37 PM

The Bible in Contemporary Language, The Message, New Testament, John, Chapter 3: ///with (e) or (e?) as a possibility (i don't know with e or not)
///and calling Yeshua Yeshua instead of Jesus, as I think appropro,
///and with a hyphen out of respect for G-d and for the Jews,
/// not ironclad necessary, relax.
verse one: then more.
"There was a man of the pharisee sect, Nicodmus,
a prominent leader among the Jews. Late one night he visited Yeshua
and said, "Rabbi, we all know you're a teacher straight from G-d No one could
do all the G-dpointing, G-drevealing acts you do
if G-d wern't in on it."
Yeshua said, "You're absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born(e)
from above, it's not possible to see what I'm pointing to -- to G-d's Kingdom."
"How can anyone," said Nicodemus, "be born(e?) who has already been born(e?)
and grown up? You can't re-enter your mother's womb and be born(e?) again.

What are you saying with this 'born(e?)-from-above' talk?"

Yeshua said, "You're not listening. Let me say it again:

Unless a person submits to this original creation --

the 'wind hovering over the water' creation,

the invisible moving the visible,, an immersion into a new life --

it's not possible to enter G-d's Kingdom.

"When you look at a baby, it's just that:
a body you can look at and touch

"But the person who takes shape within
is formed by something you can't see and touch
-- the Spirit -- and becomes a living spirit.

"So don't be surprised
when I tell you that you have to be 'born(e) from above' -- out of this world, so
to speak.
You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that.
You hear it rustling through the trees,
but you have no idea
where it comes from or where it's headed next.

"That's the way it is with everyone 'born(e) from above' by the Wind of G-d,
the Spirit of G-d."..........

"....If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face,
and you don't believe me,
what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of G-d?"

shalom

Willow

10-26-2005, 05:48 PM

j elohim,

Thanks... I like this translation a lot!
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the use of the word borne rather than born. Either one puts God in control and us out of control... so I'm still looking for the significance the different word brings to me as a person in relation to God.

Good topic Jerry!

Amy

mstar

10-26-2005, 06:41 PM

"I felt a "nudge" or an "insight" this a.m. from the Lord, that the problem with my former attitude that I HAD to find a good Church, group ect. was I had a made an "idol" out of that good church, group, ect. Otherwise if I can finally "fit" into this group, then I am O.K. That is idolity. Anytime you look to anything other that Christ as the source of your life and your identity, that other source has become an idol."

Leslie, I was referring to was MY PERSONAL journey from the trap of fundamentalistism. What I was attempting to say is that I believe the reason God brought me into that particular place was because I needed to learn about His sufficiancy and not running around to churches, groups, people, ect., all needy with the attitude, "If I am not a active member of this or that orangiztion, ect. then I am not right with God."

This was a desert experience that I personaly had to go through to learn about His sufficiency in caring for me.

I was abused in my childhood. As a result I had carried on into my adult life, some not so good reactions. Through this experience, the Lord taught me His was my father, whatever was lacking in my life, that He is and will be able to always be that for me.

I am stronger for this time and less likely to go into a church, group, relationship, whatever, for the wrong reasons. I can, instead, rest in the Lord and take time to listen for where he is calling me to, in His timing.

I am sorry if this was taken wrong and sounded condemning. This was about MY issues and MY experience in leaving fundamentism, and my personal relationship with God.

It was one rough journery, but He is Faithful.

mstar

10-26-2005, 06:59 PM

"mstar: Thanks for sharing. I still think being part of the Body of Christ is still important. That is why we are here, are we not?"

I guess what I wrote was taken wrong. God has not left me in insolation, during those time of "not in a church. He has been faithful to bring me friends, family, and divine appointgments with some great times that have more fulfilling than trying to "fit into a church, ect.," that I was not called into.

I know, in time, He will lead us into another church. We would really like that. Currently we are in a season of change, so I can rest and wait for this season to pass, without going crazy, freaking out, "Oh God, we are not in a church, what are we going to do?"

As I attempted to write below, this was my journey out of fundamentialism. (and we were awful fundamentialist, you would not have liked to be around us. . .about drove myself crazy)

mstar

10-26-2005, 07:00 PM

Thanks Jane, for your understanding and sharing. Will be in prayer for your journey. Hope you are well.

Leslie

10-26-2005, 07:30 PM

mstar,
I think that's great that you've got quite a bit of contentment! And don't worry, it was clear that you were speaking about your issues, it's just that the generalization seemed a bit of a broad brush stroke.

So how did your transformation out of fundamentalism happen?

Blessings,
Leslie

jane

10-26-2005, 09:36 PM

Prof-

You can always come to our home if you need a place to go.....;)

you and my husband think a like- you can spend hours on the net-

trust me, no one here is a cookie cutter christian-

and the christianese is only done with humor around here-

of course you'd have to like animals, we got ducks, rabbits, and what not....

and there is really no good place to worship except in our back yard-

but then there are great roads with beautiful foliage this time of year that you can spend hours bike riding through- so you would be worshipping in spirit and in truth anyway.:D

jane

profnachos

10-26-2005, 09:37 PM

Looks like clarification is in order.

I did not mean to imply that I no longer believe in those particular doctrines. I still think one must be "born again", and the Bible is the Word of God and that evangelism is important (Okay, that was enough Christianese for the day :) ).

What I took issue is my tendencies to fit every doctrine into the neat box and to completely discount mysticism. There is the Word of God, from which applications can be many, and I, as a fundamentalist, believed that our way of applying Scripture was not only the best, but the only true way.

Which is why when anyone professed Christ, my knee jerk reaction was to ask when and how he prayed the "sinner's prayer." When did the disciples prayed the sinner's prayer? Since Mother Teresa wasn't an Evangelical Christian, all of her work, to me was futile.

It was a sad and pathetic way, not to mention narrow minded, to live out a Christian life.

profnachos

10-26-2005, 09:39 PM

Wow, we must have pressed the 'Submit Reply' button at the same time :D .

You gotta start posting pictures of your animals. You've seen my dog's pics.

Prof-

You can always come to our home if you need a place to go.....;)

you and my husband think a like- you can spend hours on the net-

trust me, no one here is a cookie cutter christian-

and the christianese is only done with humor around here-

of course you'd have to like animals, we got ducks, rabbits, and what not....

and there is really no good place to worship except in our back yard-

but then there are great roads with beautiful foliage this time of year that you can spend hours bike riding through- so you would be worshipping in spirit and in truth anyway.:D

jane

jane

10-26-2005, 09:41 PM

we did, weird.

I can't figure out HOW to post pictures. I have tried like crazy. I am going to have to have a friend come over and show me. I have pictures on CD from kodak gallery and I just can't figure it out. I want to write several peices for the blog but I want pictures to go with them. It is frustrating.

jane

jane

10-26-2005, 09:45 PM

I can tell you this, my avatar (which I can't see anymore) looks exactly like me when I was 5 years old only my eyes are lighter- more blue/green.

My little girl looks like a younger version of that picture with white/blonde hair.

My Caleb looks like a pale head too with crystal clear light blue eyes.

My Jason is 270 and solid, 6 feet with a chubby face. He has brown eyes and brownish hair that is wavy.

My husband has no hair- well on top he doesnt:p He has dark hair on the sides and on his face. He is a computer geek with a beer belly but doesnt drink beer.

(Some marry for looks, my husband married me for my cooking:) )

anyway, I am tired, good post topic, will catch up with you later.

love,
jane

jane

10-26-2005, 09:48 PM

oh jeez,

you said to post my animals and I described my family. Shows you how tired I am.

My ducks are white peking. The rabbits vary. They are all cuddly. One is loose and prefers to roam my yard wild. You should see the people when they slam on their breaks in front of my house...hehehe they stop to tell me I've got a wild bunny in my front yard. He goes there to eat my sunflower stalks. I tell them, "oh, that is peter, he likes to escape his cages all the time"

We have cats too. We want a dog again but I think we are getting a nursing goat this spring.

I will have to name the goat nachos....hehehe

jane

mstar

10-26-2005, 10:02 PM

Hey Leslie,

I wrote this long saga of a post to answer your question and lost it. Maybe it was just well.

"So how did your transformation out of fundamentalism happen?"

It just doesn't work, the system is a lie. The Lord, by His grace, opened my eyes to see that I was, along with my choice of a "fellowship and support team" were a pack of hyprocites and liers. The rules are impossible to keep and why would a sane person want to.

I drove myself crazy with,
" am I doing a "good thing" (going to church enough, givin' enough, readin' the Word enough, praisin' and lovin' Him enough, witinessin', votin' and workin' for the "right wing")
"or a "bad thing" (TV, movies, reading time wastin' fiction books, dyin' my hair, buying Jezabel eye make up, shorts)

My health was gone from killin' myself for the unborn and the elderly, not to mention the pressure from my alcholic, abusive parents. My needs were not meet. . .so I cracked. . .had a breakdown.

Of course that was "messy" so I was frozen out and slandered.

Best thing that ever happened to me.

All along the Lord stayed with me and very patiently helped me to understand that was not His Heart and helped me to learn about His Grace and His Rest, which I needed.

So I guess it just doesn't work and the system crashed and Jesus met me and kept me before I totaly crashed with it. I am grateful to Him.

So if it helps, all you "fundamentalists haters", most of them are misable and know they are "trapped". . . unless they are totality depraved.

Sorry for the "broad brush stroke". . . .as I said it was my lesson. I sure don't want to condemn, but sometimes "old ways" tend to surface. I do ask your forgiveness now for it may again.

profnachos

10-26-2005, 10:50 PM

Your husband is a computer geek? Well, then maybe he can help you post pics.

I can tell you this, my avatar (which I can't see anymore) looks exactly like me when I was 5 years old only my eyes are lighter- more blue/green.

My little girl looks like a younger version of that picture with white/blonde hair.

My Caleb looks like a pale head too with crystal clear light blue eyes.

My Jason is 270 and solid, 6 feet with a chubby face. He has brown eyes and brownish hair that is wavy.

My husband has no hair- well on top he doesnt:p He has dark hair on the sides and on his face. He is a computer geek with a beer belly but doesnt drink beer.

(Some marry for looks, my husband married me for my cooking:) )

anyway, I am tired, good post topic, will catch up with you later.

love,
jane

profnachos

10-27-2005, 12:39 AM

but I DO feel free for the first time in my life.

DITTO!

mstar

10-27-2005, 01:21 PM

"One of my favorite authors Phil Yancey"

I love Phil Yancey myself, profinachos. Just brought the updated, "Finding God In Unexpected Places". Loved "Soul Survivor".

Just a thought . . .
From my understanding when, you are a Child of God, "The Word" is written in our hearts.
I don't believe the early church, while many of them were "hiding out" from persecuation, were giving "gold stars" for those reading
"two chapters if the Old, two in the New, one Psalm and one Prov." daily as devotionals. They did not have the authorized King James version, most of them couldn't read.

I believe it is important to read the Bible, to study what we have been given in the "learned" culture we have today, but if you are not careful, you can get into the traditions of man. God's Word is Spiritual, and if the Spirit of the Lord is not teaching you, giving you the Word as "manna", I don't think it is going to stick.

I am not a Bible scholar, not particularly educated, but thanks to the Grace of the Lord, I am a survivor.

I think there is a danger in our affuant American culture, that most of our "church workers" have a good deal of head knowledge, but no heart.

My daughter is currently in her last year attending a Christian university prob. not far from you. She burned out after four years. It took two years here at home to just plain love her, teach her about Grace, allow Christ to teach Her about His great Love and who she is "In Him". It did not happen in a "church building', it happened as a result of a personal relationship wiith Christ.

She is back in school, with a servant attitude, working along others, learning to look past those who talk about God's Word, teach classes about how His Church is suppose to be, yet from their "fruit" they have not a clue nor apparently have had the experience of His Love. . .they are "puffed up" with head knowledge. She hopes, after she graduates to be a part of what the Lord is doing to spread His Kingdom. She attends a healthy church near her school.

I thank God, he did not judge me harsly and has given me the grace and the time find where we belong. Meanwhile, I know I am in the Body Of Christ, because He lives inside of me, as a result I am part if the Kingdom Of God. I know when and if He desires, He will be faithful to lead us to a healthy church. I also know He has and He will always be faithful to take care of us and give us what we need, that is His promise to me as His Child.

Meanwhile, we still have fellowship with other believers, family, our friends.

Leslie

10-27-2005, 04:43 PM

Leslie

10-27-2005, 04:58 PM

Looks like clarification is in order.

What I took issue is my tendencies to fit every doctrine into the neat box and to completely discount mysticism. There is the Word of God, from which applications can be many, and I, as a fundamentalist, believed that our way of applying Scripture was not only the best, but the only true way.

Which is why when anyone professed Christ, my knee jerk reaction was to ask when and how he prayed the "sinner's prayer." When did the disciples prayed the sinner's prayer? Since Mother Teresa wasn't an Evangelical Christian, all of her work, to me was futile.

It was a sad and pathetic way, not to mention narrow minded, to live out a Christian life.

Prof, I hear you very much. The real Biblical issues, from an evangelical/literal reading, seem to be repentance and faith. The reformed view, I'm sure you know argues that any emphasis on the decision or the prayer makes faith a work, a thing man does. To derive security from our prayer or decision, according to reformed theology is to put faith in one's faith, not faith in Christ. When salvation is viewed in all of its aspects, (past, present and future) the importance of the iniitial decision pales and the issue becomes current and future belief. ONE of my problems is that some of the assumptions behind the reformed view, which I've held for over a decade are becoming disturbing to me.

mstar

10-27-2005, 11:45 PM

mstar, hey, no apology necessary. Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds rough and I'm glad you pulled through so well.

When people talk about leaving fundamentalism they can mean at least two things. If I understand right, it sounds like you left the extrabiblical rules, the judgmentalism, but still hold to the Bible. Do you feel you have a better take on the Bible without the fundy entrapments, or do you feel that some of its tenents, applied today, ure, uh, untenable? Please don't feel pressure to answer, or to do so publically. I am interetied in how people resolve some of the theological issues attached to the fundamental (in the good sense) interpretation of the Bible.

People on this board appear to be all over the map on this.

Leslie

Oh my. . .I learned something new, how the "reply with a quote" button works. Use to other web sites, so this is rather new to me.

I feel you have described type of fundamentalism I left.

Yes, I have a much better "take on the Bible". If you are leaving a false system held together by "proof texting" scriptures for their particular agenda, it is bound to get better.

I had to stop trying to read The Bible for a season, because of the "old messages".
Instead I learned to rest in my position in Christ, let those scriptures that deal with my position get into my spirit and renew my mind. With that foundation, I was able to, with the Lord's leading, allow Him teach me His Word. He would also teach me by placing balanced reading material in my hands by good authors. . .Phillip Yancy, Jeff VanVondern, Brennan Manning, and others. I would also go to churches where there was not a spirit of condemnation, listen, and learn.

As far as solving "the theological issues attached to the fundamental (in the good sense) interpretation of the Bible", I don't know if I have or can. I don't have to know everything about God and the Bible. Somethings we will never know on this side of heaven and you can drive yourself crazy "spliting theological hairs".

The basic foundation of the Bible is God's love for a fallen world and what He did to solve the problem. In my opinion, that solution was the cross of Jesus Christ, and the "exchange" that took place at the cross . . .my sinful record nailed to His cross, taken to hell, and destroyed for eternity. In exchange He has given me His record, His name, His Life. . .it is a finshed work, once and for all. This is what I know. It is central to my life.

God has given us guidelines for living in the New Testament, but I filter them through God's Love for me and others. I am not into "rules" for "show", a mark of a sick system, ie. too much makeup, drinking, TV, ect. Instead I see "guidlines" to help me with my behavior so it will not be harmful to me and to others, otherwise an extension of His Love for me and for others.

I don't know if this answers your question, Leslie, or not, as I am new here and really don't understand all these different views on fundamentialism or this web sight. I thought it was an extention of the web site Jeff VanVonderen set up several years back. If so it has changed and maybe he has changed, I really don't know.

Carmen

10-28-2005, 03:53 AM

Hi mstar,

I can really relate to your desert experience. I am still going through it, alone. You learn how to depend on God alone. But I still value this internet contact greatly.

Hi Leslie,

I didn't know you are Reformed (It was a Reformed pastor that SA'd me). My parents have studied up on Calvin over the years and taken an affinity to him. They have joined a Reformed church not too long ago after leaving one that became purpose-driven. They seem to like it there very much. I visited and could find no evidence of false doctrine or anything else that was strange. Their pastor was nice (and at least tries to hide the fact that he doesn't like some of what I believe). Most of the members are younger than my parents and are homeschooling their large families. They are more conservative than I prefer, but that is not necessarily unscriptural as long as they are loving, in my opinion. They seem to like to read lots of commentaries in addition to Scripture, which may help to understand some concepts but imo may blur others. They like John MacArthur, which Profnachos doesn't. I have read one part of MacArthur's Matthew commentary thus far and I don't like his views about obeying governments. Nero and Hitler among others were also once in government. Oooh I could go on about that one....

I have accepted the doctrines of predestination and sovereignty, Solo Christo, Sola Fide, Sola Grazia, Soli Deo Gloria, but cannot accept Sola Scriptura because of the insistence on infallibility. When I read certain passages in the letters I cannot help thinking that they have been tampered with or added in and disagree with some of Paul's statements, especially some that cannot be backed up with the OT.

What are you having doubts about?

Carmen

Leslie

10-28-2005, 01:55 PM

God has given us guidelines for living in the New Testament, but I filter them through God's Love for me and others. I am not into "rules" for "show", a mark of a sick system, ie. too much makeup, drinking, TV, ect. Instead I see "guidlines" to help me with my behavior so it will not be harmful to me and to others, otherwise an extension of His Love for me and for others..

I like your distinction between rules and guidelines.

I used to be a legalistic fundamentalist. I remember growing out of that when I encountered Christians who were real, transparant, had a relationship with God that was fresh and "of the stuff" of real life. I came to see what I probably knew before I was a fundamentalist. that God is glorified in diveristy--diversity in the externals, of culture, etc. The fundamentalism I was in limited God's glory to only things like our good behavior and politeness (you find this in some Christian approaches to child rearing). My fundamentalism mitigated against a big view of who God is. It missed the marcro--that God is glorified by the wonder of our existance, our complexity, our appreciation for his creation (like our enjoyment of food!). The diversity that glorifies God was minimized. Looking back, it almost seems like people there were automotons, with the same phrases and categories, but I recognize that it's extremely judgmental for me to say that. (Hence my qualification.) A small God is less loveable. So praise God when people feel free to do "whatver they do to the glory of God." I'd like to recapture some of that.

Leslie

10-28-2005, 02:26 PM

I didn't know you are Reformed (It was a Reformed pastor that SA'd me). I have accepted the doctrines of predestination and sovereignty, Solo Christo, Sola Fide, Sola Grazia, Soli Deo Gloria, but cannot accept Sola Scriptura because of the insistence on infallibility. When I read certain passages in the letters I cannot help thinking that they have been tampered with or added in and disagree with some of Paul's statements, especially some that cannot be backed up with the OT. What are you having doubts about? Carmen

God's absolute sovereignty in salvation, which I believe is entirely scriptural and logical, and which I've embraced for over a decade, leads me to conclude that God is capricious and arbitrary. "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." Double election, or even single election frankly just doesn't seem nice to me anymore. When you consider that God, being entirely FREE, did not NEED to ordain sin, ordain the fall, create hell, create people, decree or allow Satan to fall, decree that Adam would be our federal head and that the rest of us would then be guitly in him, you conclude, and you read elsewhere in scripture, that He has done all of this simply for His own good pleasure.

So the question to me is why did it please Him to ordain this all when it results in the eternal suffering of people who, according to the reformed understanding, did not have an authentic choice? In Calvinism, people reject Christ because they can't choose the good. Of course the reformed answer is that they are sinners by action, too, and are not dragged screaming in to hell, but actively hate God. To me, since they are constrained by their nature to reject God, and had no choice in either being born or born sinful in nature, I have trouble seeing how people can be held accountable. It leads me to question the God of the Bible's character. "He shows mercy to whom He shows mercy and has compassion on whom He has compassion." If I were to be partial like that to mykids, I'd wind up in jail. But of course, anthropomorphizing like that is not supposed to work, since God's morality is "above ours".

I don't see how a FREE and good God could ordain events that would bring about the eternal suffering of sentient beings, since He was also free not to. It's becoming a nonsequiter to me. God was eternrally happy with his own company. As such, His glory didn't hinge on some people paying for violating it. If God is God, His glory doesn't hinge on anything.

People are not clay pots; they have feelings. Scalding water is really hot. The conclusions are becoming untenable to me. Obviously, entertaining these thoughts could really interfere with my worship.

It also seems that people are called to a kind of impartiality and love for all that the Calvinistic God doesn't seem to exhibit.

Okay, now I'm outed! (I'm trying to hang in there with the faith while having to deal with these problems.) It'd be easier if I could just be an Arminian.
Leslie

Satscout

10-28-2005, 07:52 PM

I have accepted the doctrines of predestination and sovereignty, Solo Christo, Sola Fide, Sola Grazia, Soli Deo Gloria, but cannot accept Sola Scriptura because of the insistence on infallibility. When I read certain passages in the letters I cannot help thinking that they have been tampered with or added in and disagree with some of Paul's statements, especially some that cannot be backed up with the OT.

Maybe I misunderstand Sola Scriptura then. I thought that meant that the Bible was the final authority over the traditions of man. I don't remember anything in there claiming that one translation or another had to be infallible. Because we don't have the original writings, there must be some degree of trust in the translations, but let's face it, they are translations, and though God is sovereign, people are capable of introducing differences. Otherwise, there would only need to be one "translation" per language that is "correct". And then you would STILL have differences of opinion as regards interpretation. *sigh*

I don't see how a FREE and good God could ordain events that would bring about the eternal suffering of sentient beings, since He was also free not to. It's becoming a nonsequiter to me. God was eternrally happy with his own company. As such, His glory didn't hinge on some people paying for violating it. If God is God, His glory doesn't hinge on anything.

And I probably thoroughly misunderstand election, too. The way I understood it, He knew ahead of time which ones would embrace Him and which would reject Him, and so He made certain promises to the ones who would choose Him. I can't see Him "ordaining" people for hell, since He loves all and made salvation available to all - but since He knew things ahead of time and I don't, I simply trust that He is in control where I don't understand. JMO of course.

mstar

10-28-2005, 10:10 PM

"I can really relate to your desert experience. I am still going through it, alone. You learn how to depend on God alone. But I still value this internet contact greatly."

Hi Carmen,

I value this internet contact and all other contacts that the Lord gives to me.

I feel the "desert experiences" are designed, in part, to prepare one for the future relationships the Lord will bring. I know, in my case, unless changed by a season of Spirit lead quiet, solutude, and reflection, I would have brought my "baggage" into another relationship prob. not unlike the one the Lord was attempting to deliver me from.

Sometimes life feels like one long desert. In fact, I have felt, at times, to be in a desert place even when surrounded by other believers.

I don't think a "desert place" is really a physical location on this earth, but a place in the spirit that sometimes we go to. (It does help not to be in a SA church through)

Frankly I would like to go somewhere else, say Hawaii, or to a really nice ski resort. . . Europe. . .Switzerland . . . Hmmmmmm

mstar

10-28-2005, 11:33 PM

I like your distinction between rules and guidelines.

I used to be a legalistic fundamentalist. I remember growing out of that when I encountered Christians who were real, transparant, had a relationship with God that was fresh and "of the stuff" of real life. I came to see what I probably knew before I was a fundamentalist. that God is glorified in diveristy--diversity in the externals, of culture, etc. The fundamentalism I was in limited God's glory to only things like our good behavior and politeness (you find this in some Christian approaches to child rearing). My fundamentalism mitigated against a big view of who God is. It missed the marcro--that God is glorified by the wonder of our existance, our complexity, our appreciation for his creation (like our enjoyment of food!). The diversity that glorifies God was minimized. Looking back, it almost seems like people there were automotons, with the same phrases and categories, but I recognize that it's extremely judgmental for me to say that. (Hence my qualification.) A small God is less loveable. So praise God when people feel free to do "whatver they do to the glory of God." I'd like to recapture some of that.

Hey Leslie,

I think I am understanding some of your struggle as you have expressed above and then in your following post to Carmen.

I struggle with many of the same issues and anger, at times, not understanding the suffering, the death, and hell. To me, this became even more complicated when based on the principles of the "Elect" , since that pretty much puts the ball in God's court, instead of the "Well, they just said 'no'."

I really struggled with this when I lost my parents . . .are they in hell or heaven? They accepted Christ, but some in todays churches would condemn them to hell because they struggled so with sin even as Christians. There was just so many problems due to the "lot in life" they were born into. Their destructive lifestyle had gone on for so long the damage to their bodies and emotions was too far gone. Their last days were very hard, their deaths were not some pretty Christianize ending. . . it was heartbeaking and messy.

I had an "anger round" with the Lord about it not too long ago. What I felt He shared with me was He was not a "plaster paris" god. (I think Brannan Manning coined that phase), that He made them, suffered with them and me, interceeded for them and me, cared for them when I was not able, knowing my limiations.

I felt He was showing me that due to my limited mortal body, I cannot fully understand His Heart or really the end of this story. The bible does say (somewhere) that when we get to heaven we will prob be surprised by who's there.

You have heard the phase, "In mystery there is hope." He is a mystery. This statement may get me in trouble with "The First Church Of The Pharisees and Scribes" ie. the "Word" and the authorized "King James" bunch, but (I think as you are saying in the above quote) I feel the Lord is much bigger than what is written in what our culture calls "The Bible". That is why, as Christians, the "Word" has to be written in our hearts.

To me, He has to be more than letters written to certain churches dealing with "gnostism" or returning to "legalism", the "Judism" of that day, ect. These were churches with certain issues.

Of course many Spiritual insights in our Bible are timeless, and then some are cultural. I do believe God is bigger than the issues the people in the Old and New Testaments were struggling with. I feel it puts Him in a box.

Even if we are dealing with God's elect, "free will" is still in the picture, but prob. more so in the "foundations of the world". I think much of that is beyoud our current ability to understand. That is where the "Faith is the evidence of things not seen" would come in, I would think.
Again I don't know if I am addressing your struggle correctly or not. I don't feel that what you described would put you "in a closet". I think this is a common struggle, only not P.C.

Thanks for your transparency. Will be in prayer, would appreciate yours. Many blessings!

Leslie

10-29-2005, 12:13 AM

mstar, I am terribly sorry to hear about your parents' and your struggling in their lives and deaths. How very tragic.

I hope you gain confort.
Leslie

Carmen

11-02-2005, 03:03 AM

God's absolute sovereignty in salvation, which I believe is entirely scriptural and logical, and which I've embraced for over a decade, leads me to conclude that God is capricious and arbitrary. ...............
It also seems that people are called to a kind of impartiality and love for all that the Calvinistic God doesn't seem to exhibit. .................

Okay, now I'm outed! (I'm trying to hang in there with the faith while having to deal with these problems.) It'd be easier if I could just be an Arminian.
Leslie

Hi Leslie,

Just got back to the forum after the long weekend - had very little computer time.

I had a problem accepting sovereignty and predestination at the beginning, too. I thought it was callous of God to be that way. How dare he not fit into my image of him? I didn't want to accept it. Only after a struggle in prayer and much Scripture reading was I able to accept it. I think it is God's universe, he can do with it what he wants, we clay pots have feelings, yes, but we are just the pots, not the potter. Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and God even let others suffer for Israel's sake. I couldn't find the verse I was looking for that says that God even offers up whole populations for Israel's sake. Here are a few to that theme, though. Ex. 18:8, Isa. 43:14. In the NT we suffer for Christ's sake.

I didn't hate God before I was born-again, but neither could I love him truly without the faith and his Spirit that he gave me at that time. At least from personal experience, I never actively looked for him nor hated him, he was a God that was far away. Now that he is close, it does change one's perspective. The sovereignty doctrine is not necessary for salvation, although some Calvinists seem to think so. They speak negatively of Arminians, which is not right.

I can say that accepting that doctrine has expanded my horizons, in a number of directions. It was like unlocking a door opening onto a hallway with lots of unlocked doors, that I could not access before. I accept God the way he is, not the way I wanted him to be, just as I would accept anyone else. This does not mean without the respect due Him.

I witness differently, too. I don't repeatedly try to get the gospel to someone that has not accepted it, like some do. We shouldn't make pests of ourselves. In my opinion such a thing can even start wars (think about the crusades). The way of peace is better, I think. Instead, I tell someone the gospel once, and if the person doesn't have faith and profess it, so what. Maybe they were not supposed to believe. I can accept them as they are, they can remain my friend, it is just that they are not Christian. Maybe I am planting a seed that someone else will water and God will make it grow. I have no duty in the matter but to tell the gospel to someone once, and that is it. One current "business" church leader has said, "As long as there is one person in the world who does not know Christ, the church has a mandate to keep growing." :eek: . All I do is plant seeds and water them if necessary. God makes them grow, he is capable enough to do it. I have full faith in Jesus' ability to run the Church the way he sees fit (Church does not necessarily equal church congregations if they are not following Jesus' commands and examples, especially the ones about love and mercy).

God can afford to do with people what he wants, we are his possessions, saved or not. We, however, cannot. We have all felt the negative effects of professing Christians that are not behaving as they should, otherwise we would not be in this forum. We cannot afford to lord it over others. We must be merciful and loving with all at all times. Just like in the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matt. 18:21-35.

God gave me a "spanking" a while back, I admit, that put the "fear" of Him on me. I understand those types of passages much better now. I was not doing what I should to further the gospel. That did change my Sugar-Daddy image of him somewhat, before I accepted sovereignty and predestination. I can still worship, perhaps even better now that I have an added sense of his might and disciplinary hand. I don't fear Him as such, but have a healthy respect for Him now, that I did not have before. It made me grow up a bit, and that is what I think he wanted.

Sorry if this turned into a sermon. I see the doctrines of sovereignty and predestination as an advantage rather than a hindrance to living out the Christian life. It is a pity that many that have accepted them have also become callous and exclusive, that is not what Jesus intended for His Church. For me it has had the opposite effect (still far to go), making me a stench to at least some of my Calvinist brothers. Well, you can't have everything.

I accept you the way you are. Who doesn't doubt something? My admission of doubt about the infallibility of Scripture has cost me a lot in Christiandom. It is amazing how many ascribe to it, and how they are controlled by it. I have been called everything from feminist to witch to pagan for admitting to doubt a few verses of the letters. It is better to tell the truth about what you think, rather than living out a lie, in my opinion. Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Carmen