Digging Yourself Out Of The Trap

[Voyager]

I recently found myself stuck in a trap of my own making. I realized that I had been stuck in the trap for many months now... probably even years. This trap was filled with depression, stress, anxiety, fear, and self-loathing. I blamed these results on my victimization. I blamed them on trauma. I blamed them on my parents. I blamed them on abuse. I blamed them on my former pastor.

For month after month, I scoured the Internet trying to find a way out of this trap. I read articles on just about every personality disorder that exists. I saw myself in every one of them. I read about symptoms and causes, and I saw many of them in my life. I read about the family traits of abuse victims and abusers alike. What I failed to find in any of these articles was a cure for the deep dark depression I had sunken into. I failed to find any helpful articles on how to recover from the anxieties and fears that occured due to my victimization and trauma. I was left feeling hopeless and even more depressed after my searches failed to find any hopes for recovery.

Then a few days ago I was digging through all of my self-help books (I have lots of them), and I stumbled onto a book that I had never even started to read yet. When I first saw the title, I thought to myself, "Oh no, another book on self discipline." But after reading a few lines of the forward, I decided to take it with me to read at my daughter's two-hour skating lesson.

At first, some of the ideas reeked of the positive mental attitude message that my former pastor used to preach about. But, at this point I was willing to overlook that and read on. A few pages into the book I came across a statement that I am sure I have heard before, but it seemed like a completely new concept to me that I hadn't even considered up until now. It seemed to jump off the page at me. It read, "Your current state of life is a result of the daily choices that you are making."

I must admit, I threw a lot of the teachings from my former church out the window. One of these was the philosophy of being in control of my own destiny. I had heard so much of that "crap" that I threw the baby out with the bathwater. I became a religious liberal, and by-God I wasn't about to let any right-winger dictate to me how I should live. So, I started doing whatever I wanted to do - and it led me to a pit of despair and depression.

I have wallowed in self pity over my victimization for many years now. I had become a perpetual victim. I haven't been thinking about what I can do to make my life better. I have been stuck in the past. I have been stuck in learning about PTSD and its symptoms. I have gotten caught in a trap of my own making - and I am the only one who can get myself out of it. No one else can do it for me... and no one can keep me trapped there either.

Let me quote another statement out of this book I have been reading:

Just as the chain reaction of good choices leads to increased self-esteem and self-discipline, the momentum of poor choices leads to depression, obesity, and poor daily performance."

All along I have been blaming my depression and lack of productivity on the trauma I suffered as a result of leaving my former abusive church. Never once did I attribute this state of mind on my own poor choices! I am the one who dug my pit of depression - and I am the only one who can dig myself out of it.

Here's another quote from the book that stood out to me:

There is no doubt about it: you are what you choose to be. Life is made up of thousands of choices, choices made in each second of every day of your life. This, in essence, is how you create your life - by the choices you make.

Why is this such a revelation to me? Probably because I had decided that my life was going to be of poor quality due to the choices of my former pastor. I had given that person control of my life... and I never took it back! Even though I had left the church, I was still under the pastor's control. I was paying money to therapists, buying books, and scouring the Internet for a solution on how to get back control of my life - when all I had to do was take it back. I just didn't understand how easy it was to do.

Over the past few days I have begun to exercise in the mornings. I haven't been drinking or taking any drugs - and I feel great! Many of you know that I quit taking pain pills cold turkey a few weeks ago. I knew that I had to find something to replace them, or I would just sit around missing them. I realize that I am still somewhat vulnerable to slip back into addictions, but at least I have hope now. Without hope, we will remain stuck in the trap of self-pity as a perpetual victim. Knowing and understanding that by a few simple good choices I can change my life for the better makes all the difference in the world. I own my own destiny! Depression doesn't own me. My former pastor doesn't own me. My life is what I make it based on the daily choices that I make (or don't make).

Take a look at this excerpt from the book I am reading:

You do not need to repeat a special chant or pay a therapist thousands of dollars to find clarity in your life. By discovering what your goals in life are, and focusing your time and energy toward them, your life takes on clarity and purpose.

I know it's easy to say, "Oh, here we go on another self-help thread. How long will this one last - a week or two?" I must admit, I have gotten on self-help kicks before that didn't last very long. But I have also gone for 13 years at one time without doing any drinking or drugs. During this same period I also went for a 13-year stint without any depression. So, I know that when I find something that works I can stick with it. No one made me stop drinking and drugging for 13 years. I did it myself. I can do it again.

Anyway, the name of the book is "Take Control" by Michael A. Janke. It's a very easy read, and extremely encouraging. He gives you simple, easy steps to take that don't come across as impossible-to-reach goals like most self-discipline books read. I believe this book is going to be a life-saver for me. It's about time that I "take control" of my life again. I never realized that my former pastor still had control of it! I am sick and tired of being a perpetual victim. I would rather die than live in that state of mind any longer.

I hope this is an encouragement to someone. We don't have to live as captives to our abusers. Our destiny and quality of life is in our hands, not theirs.

:cool:

[SpinningHead]

Wow! Voyager! What timing!

I have been reading and working a lot these past couple years of convincing myself that:

a) I am not a victim every day
b) Even if someone does something horrible to me...I don't have to stay stuck in being a victim ... I can choose to survive, learn and pass on the lessons
c) I have today's choices to determine how today will be as far as I can control it.

Your post is really validating! Thank you!! :)

That's so great that the message stuck out at you like that! Maybe you were just ready to let it sink in and it's time for a change, you're strong enough for a change. You sound like you're on the verge of great awakenings. So happy for you!

and BTW...embrace a long self-help thread...one never knows what bit of wisdom will come from it that can just change everything for you. ;)

Thanks again for this post! It was a great one! :D

[Voyager]

I think I just wrote in my post above the final chapter of the book that I have been trying to find for years now. I don't know why people write books filled with symptoms and causes but no outline or plan for recovery. I am tried of getting to the end of a book only to say, "yeah, that sure sums up my life" without ever finding a cure to the problems that the book tells you about. Has anyone else ever felt this frustration?

Thanks for the supportive reply SpinningHead. Maybe both of our heads will stop spinning soon. We are the only ones who can make them stop spinning - no one else is going to do it for us. LOL!

:cool:

[Doug64]

It sounds like a great breakthrough!

Congratulations, Voyager.

Funny how something like that can leap off the page at us.

Doug

[Autumn]

Great subject, you folks are the best balm for my weary soul.
I too am so sick and tired of blaming whoever for for whatever, as long as they leave me alone these days, i frankly don't care anymore.

I guess i'm sick and tired of it all and choking on it.

ok then, moving on, i'm trying to enjoy whatever good there is to be enjoyed, mabe, i'm finally growing up,,you think? so glad you are here, so sad what brought you here. But so grateful to hear some common sense. Autumn

[Joseph]

Hi Voyager,

I can relate to your reaction to those quote's. I have a couple of quote's that have affected me like that, it's meaning is so clear that you take it and build on it. One is similar and I wrote this to someone on this forum once,

"Ten percent of life is what happens to you, and ninety percent is how you handle it", the other one is;

"You can go through hell, but that doesn't mean you have to stay there"

They are simple and to the point, and I like that!

I came out of some pretty bad things when I was younger, sounds similar to what your giong through. I came out and stayed out, you will too.
Keep looking up and you cannot fail,
Joe

[Willow]

Great post Voyager!

The thing that is helping me is simple, but hard for me to do. Get out and do things where people are. Have some fun and lighten up. Not that I don't ever try to grow and focus on hard things... but somehow, once I made myself go do some fun stuff and meet people, the depression and anxiety seemed to wane. I still tend toward staying at home by myself, but not all the time like I did for a few years. Part of what helps me may not be too kosher here. But... if I have a couple of beers I am not as self conscious and afraid of people after a brew or two.

[Katie]

Thanks for this Voyager.

I'm thinking about it. I know that it's good advice.

Right now, I'm just tired and not excited about much. It's become easy for me to slack off on things I used to make good choices in.

I am struggling with not wanting to do the things I've always done. I just don't feel much like eating right, exercising, fixing my hair, putting on makeup, etc. I know that I should, but just don't care.

There seems to be little that interests or excites me. I hope this is just a stage in the process. Sometimes the highlight of my day is the diet coke I have which I know I should give up. Pathetic, huh?

[Voyager]

I know what you mean Katie. It's hard to get motivated to do the things we know we should be doing. Especially after our whole world was stripped away from us. I'm just tired of living in depression and gloom.

Maybe if we just start making one new good choice each day, we could lick this thing? Or even one new good choice a week would be better than what I had been doing. Anyway, I have to admit that I got really pumped about this idea. The real proof will be if I am still at it a month from now.

Just being honest with ya.

:cool:

[Leslie]

The blahs suck. Partly because they are self-sustaining. The poor get poorer. But the rich also get richer. So what do the rich (of mood) do? Exactly what you guys have been saying. One good choice, one bit of progress. That kickstarts the good neurotransmitters. Someone once noted that the traditionally "male" way of dealing with the blahs is more effective than the traditionally "female" approach. That is, to get out there and do something vs. retreating.

For anyone for whom this may be helpful--some nutritionists I know said that neurotransmitters are made entirely of amino acids. So it's important to eat enough protein.

My problem of late is lack of energy!

I'm so sad to read about those who feel blahish now. I relate because I've been there, too, especially when postpartun. Katie and Willow and Voyager, and THE REST of you are so dear!

[Leslie]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I've got a defeatist attitude about MY situation. I guess I'm asking for ideas. How can I dig myself out (to the degree that I'm in) when I can't distance myself from the oppressive church? Even in leaving, it'd remain as close as my husband's remarks about all the impressive newcomers. I'm not yet free enough or strong enough to leave. Not grounded enough. To be honest there about my reservations would only marginalize me more, as it'd be gossipy. Because church is so central to how my husband wants to "do" our family, there really is social isolation for me. Attending solo elsewhere would be stigmatizing and not a good long term solution. Marital disunity is not attractive to potential friends. My family is out of state.

I probably need to take my advice in the previous post. I do, but progress is slow, as adults have their social networkds formed. I'm becoming a bit unconventional, and this is taboo in many circles.

Reconciling with his pastors would be very helpful, but they declined meeting with me. Maybe I need to try this again.

Any thoughts? Thanks, and sorry for sounding pitiful.
Leslie

[Jerry]

Reconciling with his pastors would be very helpful, but they declined meeting with me. Maybe I need to try this again.

Dear Leslie,,,
Sorry but I can't think of anything you can do to fit in.You are a remarkable woman with a keen sharpe mind with an exellant command of language and an empathetic spirit.How can you ever "Fit in",when fitting in means stepping backwards.You are in short spiritually superior to the people in that church.I believe your function in that church is to be a watchman,when the time is right you will accert your influance.You will know when the time is right,you will not have to ask twice.Your answer is in Daniel 12 verses 4-10.Have a good day Dani,,,,,,,,,,,,ahhhhhhhh,,,,,,Leslie ;)
Love Jerry
P.S. There,,,,,I just turned on a light ;)

[Carmen]

I tried to post here yesterday when the whole system went down. Couldn't get online again.

Hi Leslie,

If I were you I'd stay away from that church. You might want to make peace with the pastor if possible, though, as long as it doesn't mean staying. Come to think of it I didn't make peace with the pastor where I was SA'd, but he wouldn't let me either. I know how you feel. I am depressed, too. I can't get away from my husband's comments about my research and website, and the occasional visits to other churches. I am missing a retreat at one of them to keep the peace, although I could use the intense fellowship. I don't see any Christians at all for weeks at a time, sometimes. He gets angry to the point of yelling at me. And then I yell back.... it is not good for the kids. He yells at me for other things too, which just makes home life all the more disgusting. :( :mad: I can't do anything right. He wasn't always that way. A number of years ago he developed chronic back pain and got cranky. Since then he has been treated and the pain is gone, but not the behavior. I had hoped that a new and more interesting job for him would help, so encouraged him to look for one and agreed to move to Italy for that reason even though Germany was a nicer place to live, but it has not helped.

If you can find another sort of group to go to, just for women (so he can't come), that might be an alternative. It may not be a help as far as spiritual life goes, but at least you can get out and see other people and make new friends. Maybe something about sewing, literature, basket-weaving (heh! heh! Don't knock it, I've tried it), whatever does interest you but not him. Groups are better than courses, though, because you keep meeting. If those in the group are from your area, you could visit with each other outside of the group. You will see who is "nice" - more compassionate - fairly quickly. Maybe they attend another church and so you can find other Christians to be with, without attending another church. Once they know that you are also Christian and need fellowship then something may be able to be arranged for you. In my area that would never work. You can count the born-again Christian adults in my town on one hand, including myself. The US is relatively heavily populated with Christians (we hope), so your chances of finding them that way are much better.

Carmen

[Jerry]

Dear Leslie,,,
I just read Carmens post and agree .Please don't misunderstand my post,I did not mean it to imply that you should remain in an abusive environment :o
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Hey Jerry,

I wasn't referring to you at all. :) I just had to let off a little steam.

Carmen

[Jerry]

Hey Jerry,

I wasn't referring to you at all. :) I just had to let off a little steam.

Carmen
I know Carmen but your post caused me to see a flaw in my own ;) that works for me :D
Love Jerry

[SpinningHead]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I've got a defeatist attitude about MY situation. I guess I'm asking for ideas. How can I dig myself out (to the degree that I'm in) when I can't distance myself from the oppressive church? Even in leaving, it'd remain as close as my husband's remarks about all the impressive newcomers. I'm not yet free enough or strong enough to leave. Not grounded enough. To be honest there about my reservations would only marginalize me more, as it'd be gossipy. Because church is so central to how my husband wants to "do" our family, there really is social isolation for me. Attending solo elsewhere would be stigmatizing and not a good long term solution. Marital disunity is not attractive to potential friends. My family is out of state.

I probably need to take my advice in the previous post. I do, but progress is slow, as adults have their social networkds formed. I'm becoming a bit unconventional, and this is taboo in many circles.

Reconciling with his pastors would be very helpful, but they declined meeting with me. Maybe I need to try this again.

Any thoughts? Thanks, and sorry for sounding pitiful.
Leslie

Leslie dear...you're beautiful & your transparency is refreshing. :)

Maybe you'd like to try something I did in one of my life coaching exersizes.

In your journal....you have one, right? no?? ok, go buy one...I'll wait...

ok. now... (anyone can do this - print this out and get a cup of tea...I'll wait ;) )

Seesion #1)
Get your journal and pick a time (like when hubby is at church - a time when you would normally obsess about what's happening to you) and use the time to write down everything that ever interested you and that given the perfect opportunity, you would love to succeed at...sports? crafts? ceramics? beading? painting? gardening? singing? belly-dancing? politics? reading? start your own magazine? create your own website for lamas? woman's issues? culture cooking? wine tasting events? learn a new trade/field...anything at all (except for anything that might trigger you in this time of SA)...but you name it & don't hold back...it doesn't matter what it is. Do it until your time is up or until he gets home. This is all about you and discovering what a fabulous person you are and the many, many interests you have outside of this SA experience. I can share with you all that I myself am fabulous. No, it's true...I am fabulous. God made me fabulous and I embrace that I am fabulous and I do fabulous things and have fabulous interests...come be fabulous with me. k? Anyone can be fabulous. :D

Session #2) - again, you're replacing a time that you would normally obsess
Now...go back to your list and read what a well rounded person of interest you are. Let that feeling sink in...wow! There's a lot of potential here! Celebrate that! This might take up all of session #2...realize that you have you and you can be your best friend. Hubby's issues are his own and if he doesn't want your help, advice, opinion...so be it. You want you b/c you're a fabulous person to know.

Session #3) - not obsessing now...
Now take each item on your list and write down for each one what the first realistic step in your life would be to achieve this. Such as for Politics...watch Meet the Press. Belly dancing...find out if there are any classes nearby. Crafts? Check out Michael's craft store for their in-house calendar classes (usually $10-$30). Reading...go to library and ask library for recommendations. Start your own magazine...design a fun cover. Wow...the world of possibilities is opening up and you're figuring out some first steps. Life isn't hopeless and there's a lot of potential to be excited for...not bad.

Session #4) - no obsessing going on here...
You should have a pretty good list...pick 5 that are the most reasonable for you at this time and have the most potential for a positive good experience. Such as a Michaels' Craft Store craft class, or a yoga class or exercize class, or a local wine & cheese event (something to dress for). Are you getting excited about expanding your horizon's yet? Is something new...an adventure...tugging at your senses yet? Remember, it's all about you and taking care of you...do you dare? Are you ready? It's a great big world out there and somewhere someone is having a bit of fun...

Now go for one thing on your list! try it! It's crazy but do it! If you take a friend along make it an absolute rule that you will NOT talk about hubby or SA or the church or nuthing to do with anything that brings you back to this horrible place. Today you are allowing yourself to be distracted from all that for just a moment in time and you're remembering that God created this world and there's some good in it. You're going to take the time to experience some of that good and tell Him so!

Little by little you can change your attitude by changing your experiences and introducing new things to your day. No one says you have to be a master at anything that you try...but you are trying them, you are going for it and you're doing it for you. Changing your outlook to be a better person, expanding your thoughts and exposure and having your own mind, your own opinions...maybe, just maybe you'll begin to crave more than anything your own intense relationship with God as you and He see fit together.

This exersize has really helped me improve a lot of myself, my thinking, increase my narrow view of the world, my interests... When I obsess about what's happened to me I tend to make these beaded bookmarkers b/c I always had an interest in beading and one day I got all the supplies, got a weekend project bead book and blammo! I go to local craft shows and check out the beading for ideas. I'm making the bookmarks to sell them on a craft e-bay type site for $40...price could change. I'm still working it out... I've given them away as gift and people cannot believe I've made them and think I should sell them! I think...I started this to give my obsessing energy something else to do and look what I've managed to do! :o I've also started reading again...love the library! And I attending a few wine and food events - I've always loved the art of wine, how it's made and how to pair it w/ food... I've gotten into healthier cooking and make stuff just for me sometimes...something fabulous! My hubby has taken up striped bass fishing from shore (praises God the whole time) & real estate...When we both pursue these interests, on occasion we begin to realize that we haven't given so much energy to our SA as we used to. Yes, it still hurts for me and yes I'm here to work some things out and I value all the insight that you folks give me and I still need to talk some of this stuff through (just left the SA this past Sept.)...

but I'll be gosh darnit if I'm going to give the best of myself to this SA and anyone who wants to try to keep me down. I've come to this earth to live my life outloud! <<<get ready as SpinningHead breaks out into the song & dance number...>>>

And let me tell you...the moment, the MOMENT you begin to do for yourself and not obsess about the SA...people WILL freak! :eek: That's how they know you and that's what they use to define you and that's how they keep you down under their controlling thumb. You've got to be strong. You've got to be extra strong considering your hubby is not on board. He's got to decide if he wants a happy wife or a miserable broken-spirited wife...because you're going to be happy! It's got to be a choice that you make regardless of what those surrounding idiots do. You will take care of you...

Say it with me...I will take care of me, even if no one else will! I have spoken that phrase outloud to people and you should see their reactions! Anything from anger to empathy to shock to defensiveness... I've even made it personal...I will take care of me, even if you won't!

Respect did not come over night and there were others who could not handle it...I said in another post that there were church hubbies who did not want their wives hanging out w/ me b/c I was too "independant"...a trait my hubby has grown to cherish (although didn't always like it either!)

Ok....too long. Anyone care to sing with me?? I'm a survivor! I never give up...


PS...if you're depression is caused by chemical imbalance then you might seek help from one of those nice people in white coats who can provide you w/ those sweet little pink pills. ;) But the above can also help...change your experiences/change your life.

I'm a survivor! I never give up... <<and SpinningHead is off to star in her own PBS self-help special...>>

[Voyager]

Leslie,

We all have to make our own life, and then we live in it. You can't rely on your husband to supply your social network. Right now it has been taken away from you until you comply. That is no way to live. You will become a slave if you submit to it, and if you don't you will remain friendless. That is what I call a prison. But, you have a way out - so it's really a prison of your own making as long as you stay in it. I know this first hand, as I have lived for a while in prisons that I made for myself.

What is more important - your mental health, or making your husband happy? It doesn't sound like he is ever going to be happy as long as he is at that church, so even though you are sacrificing your social life for him - he is still not happy. You will have to pick yourself up and find a social life. You can't stay isolated. That's one of the major causes of depression.

Now I'm preaching to myself too. Take what you need and leave the rest.

:cool:

[Voyager]

P.S. - Great advice SpinningHead! I'm going to use some of it myself.

:cool:

[Leslie]

You people are really sweet and I thank you for all you've said. Some very good advice. My mood isn't severe at all, it's primarily that the status quo here is not good and I don't forsee the marriage or church situations improving. What y'all said about taking care of myself is very sound, and I plan to do that part. But I have to say that to add more independent activities will encourge this roommate lifestyle that is not good. He thinks we can't be close because of our different beliefs. I say our unity is hurt by the busyness (mostly church) 4 nights a week. We just don't feel like a family.

Carmen, I'm so sorry to hear that your husband isn't being respectful. Does boundary setting work at all? I really hope you have or can find the support that would help you cope with the homefront stuff. Glad you shared . . . .

~L

[SpinningHead]

I have another ps...

once you start getting out there and pursuing interests...you'll find like minded folks. Another friend of mine did this exercize this past summer and now he's part of a kayaking club (joined all by himself) and meeting a lot of great people w/ similar interests. Alot of kayaking clubs are run from stores and they'll let you rent the gear. He's looking to buy his own stuff by next summer. He said his whole summer outlook and a hurt place he's been in was changed b/c of this adventure. :o Awww....shucks.

[SpinningHead]

P.S. - Great advice SpinningHead! I'm going to use some of it myself.

:cool:


Well of course you are! You're FABULOUS! :p

[Leslie]

I do have several groups and activities during the week, but I've found that friendships are hard to forge. There are factors you can't control: friendships take chemistry. So while I'm an agent in my life, I'm not yet satisfied with the results. I'm just being realistic about how my unconventionality isn't going to help connections with some Christian types. And at this point, my reputation with the people who know me matters to me, so my husband's spin on me to people at church and in his family does bother me (somretimes more than others). I agree with you Voyager, that I didn't build the prison. But life "as an ex con", so to speak, is affected by the prison, and in that way it won't be the life I would choose. I never would have chosen an oppressive marriage and church. I'm forced to now be reactive. It's not my choice that these issues marginalize me in the existing circles and that we can't have the kind of healthy social life together as a family. Maybe that's just something I have to grieve the loss of and get over. Maybe in the future I'll look back and see that you are totally right in what you're saying.

But right now I think the notion of absolute free will is somewhat of a fallacy. (This is a borrowed idea.) We are somewhat bound by our values and wiring. While I can make choices, in doing so I'm constrained by my assessment of the consequences. (Am I willing to suffer the consequences?) That, I think, is the issue.

[Voyager]

He thinks we can't be close because of our different beliefs. I say our unity is hurt by the busyness (mostly church) 4 nights a week. We just don't feel like a family.
It's obvious that HIS church activities are the cause of the problems in your marriage. However, YOU are the one bearing the guilt load of it. He is blaming you for them, because you won't play the religious extremist game that he is playing.

What is it that keeps a marriage together? Is it sharing the same religious beliefs, or is it the following: Love, kindness, respect, compassion, understanding, caring, and bonding?

Unfortunately, you may never get your husband to understand this. When people get caught up in religious extremism, they see it as the end-all for peace and happiness and everything that stands in the way as being of the devil.

:cool:

[SpinningHead]

It's obvious that HIS church activities are the cause of the problems in your marriage. However, YOU are the one bearing the guilt load of it. He is blaming you for them, because you won't play the religious extremist game that he is playing.

What is it that keeps a marriage together? Is it sharing the same religious beliefs, or is it the following: Love, kindness, respect, compassion, understanding, caring, and bonding?

Unfortunately, you may never get your husband to understand this. When people get caught up in religious extremism, they see it as the end-all for peace and happiness and everything that stands in the way as being of the devil.

:cool:


Leslie, I agree w/ Voyager. I guess (and don't feel you have to answer here or at all) the question becomes...

How much of your "self" are you willing to sacrifice/ignore for the sake of this church? this pastor? or your hubby's loyalty to this cult that would see your marriage and you destroyed?

Until you can come up with some sort of answer to this...you're right that you'll have difficulty moving to a different choice/life pattern.

How can we help you? :)

[SpinningHead]

We are somewhat bound by our values and wiring. While I can make choices, in doing so I'm constrained by my assessment of the consequences. (Am I willing to suffer the consequences?) That, I think, is the issue.

A very, very difficult and extremely painful family situation brought me to forge this quote:

<<<ahem..."microphonse, please...thank you.">>>

"One cannot predict, control, or contain the consequences to one's actions. One can only be mindful of and control one's actions in the first place."

<<<stepping away from microphone>>>

While it's very good and healthy to have foresight into consequences, you must not let unreasonable consequences (like other's reactions as opposed to response) be the deciding factor of what you need to do and choose for yourself and your own self care.

You have to trust that you are making the absolute best decision based on the information that you have at hand today. If another person "reacts" to that...eliminate that from mattering to you. If another person "responds" to that then weight it carefully and adjust as needed.

What are you willing and not willing to tolerate in your life?
How are you willing yourself and not willing yourself to be treated?

Hard questions...who said put your journal away??

My mother, Godblessher!...has never been able to determine these questions and to this day struggles with her own identity. She once asked me if I thought she was a good mother. I remember telling her I thought she was a fine mother. She was just very bad at being <insert SpinningHead's mom's name here>.

[Voyager]

Any church that has four nightly meetings a week is a cult in my opinion. There would be no way to have a family life apart from your church life if you were at church four nights a week. Your marriage and your family life will continue to suffer as long as your husband is involved in that cult. They own him now. But, they don't have to own you. You are the only one that you can choose for.

I know that sounds harsh, but I've been out of my former cult for seven years now. I can spot them a mile away.

:cool:

[Leslie]

Voyager, thanks.
Yeah, persuading a religious extremist otherwise is hard, since their beliefs don't permit persuasion. In that way they're ideologues (sp?)--their ideology colors their perception even when there is evidence to contradict their interpretations. For instance, they are so sure of their conclusions about people who "leave the faith" that they can't see evidence to the contrary. Illegitimizing dissenters means they don't have to show respect. Unless they see that the NT DOES command that we treat everyone with respect.

[Leslie]

Two nightly meetings are for families, one is for kids, one is a leeadership class for husbands. (Yikes!) So, all meetings are mandatory, unless you're in a family like mine! ;)

[Voyager]

Religious extremism is religious extremism, whether it is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jehovah Witness, etc. Consider this - what theme do the Al Qaeda terrorists and Christian extremists have in common? Here it is:

They see their religion as the end-all approach to pleasing God and finding peace and happiness, and everything else as being of the devil.

The way I see it, I used to be a religious terrorist. I may not have murdered anyone, but I was a very merciless hardliner when it came to acknowledging that people were worthy of my love and God's love if they rejected my belief system.

:cool:

[jane]

Religious extremism is religious extremism, whether it is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jehovah Witness, etc. Consider this - what theme do the Al Qaeda terrorists and Christian extremists have in common? Here it is:


Quote:
They see their religion as the end-all approach to pleasing God and finding peace and happiness, and everything else as being of the devil.


The way I see it, I used to be a religious terrorist. I may not have murdered anyone, but I was a very merciless hardliner when it came to acknowledging that people were worthy of my love and God's love if they rejected my belief system.

This is certainly a mouth full, and an intense statement. I believe it. I also was a hardliner and when people didn't agree, I knew :rolleyes: that they were just not in touch with the Holy spirit.

Now that I am on the other side of their "knowing eyes" I can see the lunacy in it.

I do believe that I perpetuated a type of murder, I may not have bombed anyone's homes but I help contribute to their lives, decisions that robbed them of the essence of who they are.

God made these people to be individuals and I towed the party line from our church that helped these people to give up dreams and indentities to become robotrons to the vision of a lunatic pastor.

jane

[Leslie]

Whoops. I meant to say the 4 meetings AREN'T mandatory. And I didn't mean to imply that I'm forced to go, cause I'm not. Just that the rest of my fam does.

[Leslie]

The way I see it, I used to be a religious terrorist. I may not have murdered anyone, but I was a very merciless hardliner when it came to acknowledging that people were worthy of my love and God's love if they rejected my belief system.

:cool:

Voyager, so how'd your transformation happen? Was it from the SA?

Leslie

[Voyager]

Voyager, so how'd your transformation happen? Was it from the SA?
I finally witnessed too much shaming, manipulation, control, lying, humiliation, and cultish practices so I bailed out. I had been there 12 years, and I was a very loyal member. I played on the worship team and I taught adult Sunday School. The church had 500 members. Now it's down to 50.

After I left I voiced my concerns to the church elders. They wouldn't hear me, and the pastor labelled me "insane" from the pulpit among other things. So I started a website in order to have an equal platform to speak my side of the story from. I put an ad for the website in the local newspaper. By this time, about six or seven people had escaped after I did, and we posted the things on my website forum that were being done in the church. The whole town of 16,000 started talking about the website, which embarrassed the church members. A year later about 100 members escaped. They all started posting on my website forum. Then six months later the pastor was caught embezzling money and was terminated. That was about a year ago. The church has since dwindled to about 50 members.

That's it in a nutshell.

:cool:

[Jerry]

I do have several groups and activities during the week, but I've found that friendships are hard to forge. There are factors you can't control: friendships take chemistry. So while I'm an agent in my life, I'm not yet satisfied with the results. I'm just being realistic about how my unconventionality isn't going to help connections with some Christian types. And at this point, my reputation with the people who know me matters to me, so my husband's spin on me to people at church and in his family does bother me (somretimes more than others). I agree with you Voyager, that I didn't build the prison. But life "as an ex con", so to speak, is affected by the prison, and in that way it won't be the life I would choose. I never would have chosen an oppressive marriage and church. I'm forced to now be reactive. It's not my choice that these issues marginalize me in the existing circles and that we can't have the kind of healthy social life together as a family. Maybe that's just something I have to grieve the loss of and get over. Maybe in the future I'll look back and see that you are totally right in what you're saying.

But right now I think the notion of absolute free will is somewhat of a fallacy. (This is a borrowed idea.) We are somewhat bound by our values and wiring. While I can make choices, in doing so I'm constrained by my assessment of the consequences. (Am I willing to suffer the consequences?) That, I think, is the issue.
Leslie you have a wonderful mind,,,,,,if your husband ever figures out what he is missing,,,,,,he will be grief strickin :(
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Carmen, I'm so sorry to hear that your husband isn't being respectful. Does boundary setting work at all? I really hope you have or can find the support that would help you cope with the homefront stuff. Glad you shared . . . .
Nothing seems to work, I would have to give up my website and stop researching church movements which I would not even think of doing in my sleep or my husband must have faith. I don't think anything else can help him now unless God touches his heart.

I talked to my mom yesterday, or more appropriately, yammered and she says that I am definitely too depressed. I never was a "sunny" type, and always have had a tendency to dwell too long on the bad things.

I already attend a monthly group but it is religiously based, and will start attending another one for research purposes. Ack! Too much religion! Sometimes it gets over my head too.

I already have tried some of what SpinningHead suggested, getting the website up was a big challenge. Maintaining it is one, too, as I wish to keep on writing articles and soliciting them from those willing to post with me. That keeps me busy. It is satisfying to see finished articles on the net. I could move on a bit and take the next step. I have been wanting to publish something in a magazine about what I have researched, even an online magazine as long as it is reputable, would be a step up, I think. I have an appropriate theme that I am already researching and have gathered literature sources. I just have to start writing the article.

Another goal is to start a bible-study in Italian - so that I can have Christian friends. If God is obliging, some that come out of curiosity may end up with faith. It will be a challenge, and will probably cost me some Catholic friendships to start a Protestant bible-study. It may potentially cost my husband some friends too, since he may be singled out as my husband. EVERYBODY is Catholic here except for myself (I still am on paper), my friends "Marco" and "Maria" and one other couple and a few Orthodox and Muslims. As of yet the language is in the way. Realistically, I would need to study for the last exam for foreigners that I plan to take in June. Then my language capabilities will be somewhat better. I have taken the first step of enrollment for this term. It should start next week or the week after. At least the course is already concrete, I just have to follow through and learn.

Yet another possibility is to start a literary discussion group - for secular literature - no connection to what I do now, it would be an opportunity to shut out discernment and all things religious for a while and would keep my mind from dwelling on the SA. I would not be able to participate fully at the beginning and would do a lot of listening to other's discussions, but it would also be a chance to hone my language skills. The problem is that very few in my town are intellectual let alone free thinkers enough to want to do this. There is one other woman that is interested, a teacher whose son I taught English to. I already proposed the idea to her as a joke, but am seriously thinking about it now. She may be able to suggest how I go about starting the group, she may have to act as principal member, because she knows the language better.

Will try to be more positive and think about other things, the literary group is probably the best bet for that. If we can arrange for a room at one of the schools rather than using my home, it will be better for my husband's peace as well.

See, now there is an example for a journal entry. :p
Thanks for the ideas SpinningHead! :) Thanks for the encouragement Leslie! :)

[Leslie]

Carmen, I think your pursuits sound great. I'm glad you find satisfaction in them. And I like how you're willing to do the legwork now for future payoff. Glad to hear you can talk to your mom. Keep on taking satisfaction in the accomplishments. May the process is enjoyable, too!

Blessings,
Leslie

[Leslie]

Jerry, you must KNOW that you have the gift of encouragement, brother!

I don't know . . . now the marriage therapist intimated that I'm strong-willed too. This is just because I'm passionate about my kids' best interest. And I don't think their best interest is being treated harshly for being a toddler or for expressing their feelings (another topic for another day!). Counselor may think that I don't don't yield, but there's a ton of evidence that I do, if he'd just be objective enough to see it. If he'd look at the whole of my life, not how I become assertive in session. You may have read where I mentioned his bias that "everyone marries their emotional equal". If this is true, then victims of abuse are abusive, too. So I think his bias is coming home to roost. He may be too personally attached to his belief to see that I am not my husband's emotional equal. The differences are huge. To dissent might be seen as "resistive". I knew the risks, but I held out hope for marriagetherapy because underneath it all, I really am a trusting person.

At least the experience is showing me some of the hazards of psychotherapy. Wtih dissenting "experts" on both sides of every issue, both can't be right. So some experts are wrong. Being expert means that they hold sway in legal matters; so their power really has its danger. There have been custody decisions based on MMPI results. Even on that test, questioning of the status quo is a measure of "rebelliousness". No consideration is given to whether the status quo is bad and shuld be changed. (Yikesages!)

I don't know, I think I was happier 6 years ago when I was unaware of all of these issues. It was like the innocence of childhood.

Thanks for what you said. I hope husband and I can have a breakthrough, because life IS good out there, and I'd like to do it with harmony.

[Leslie]

Voyager,
Wow. I am glad that his demise and the corroboration from others has really vindicated you! I'm glad for that! I'd guess that has helped in your healing.

Did you worry at all that there could be legal ramifications for going public on the website? No law against "gossip". I'd be curious to know what your newspaper ad said.

In my situation, the chuirch is growing exponentially due to radio broadcast, this very intellectual approach to the Bible that attracts a lot of people, and the cool music. I only know of one other case for sure where the pastor's authority was misused. The rest of the people eithet are unaware, or think that the church's methods are sound. I suspect they haven't had the church's meddling forced upon them the way I have. They have the luxury of being happy there because they haven't experienced what I have. In that way, I'm quite alone.
Leslie

[Voyager]

Did you worry at all that there could be legal ramifications for going public on the website? No law against "gossip". I'd be curious to know what your newspaper ad said.
I only posted things that I knew to be factual. Slander is a false and malicious statement or report about someone. To be help up in court it requires proving that the party knew the statement they made was false, and malice must also be proven. As long as you stick to the facts as you believe them to be true you are not breaking any laws.

:cool:

[Jerry]

At least the experience is showing me some of the hazards of psychotherapy. Wtih dissenting "experts" on both sides of every issue, both can't be right. So some experts are wrong.
Dear Leslie,,,
I used to be a Substance Abuse Councelor.I never worked with marriage problems so take what I say and apply or discard at your own judgment ;) In counceling there is no right or wrong,,,,,,,,,,,it's about access and chemistry and creating a transferrance.Once that is established the councelor can then hold up a mirror reflecting your personality to you in a non thretining environment giving you the option to change your behavior without consequence. If the councelor your seeing thinks in terms of right and wrong technique ( within ethical bounds of course) I would question his/her ability to help you. Where I worked it was not uncommon to pass a client to another councelor because the chemistry wasn't right and they would not allow you access.You and Hubby sure don't need a councelor that thinks he is good,,,,,,,,,,,it's not about that ;)
Love Jerry
P.S. It IS about,,,,,,can "I" help these people.

[Carmen]

Leslie,

I'm just worried that a so-called "Christian" counselor may tell you that you are being rebellious, to get you to "obey" and get to church which would keep you in a sort of bondage.

Carmen

[Leslie]

Carmen, I hear you. We'er supposed to read a Christian marriage book that is "essentail" for our improvement. The book seems to be somewhat of a trigger for me. I think I'll ask the guy to explain his assumption about emotional equals, any evidence that husband and I are, and what makes him think I'm strong willed. I'll hold my rebuttals til I've heard what he has to say! :)

Voyager and Jerry, thanks for the info.

Very sound points, Jerry. When a therapist arrives at opinions based on little evidence and tout their expertise, I have to wonder if they are a little narcissitic, subject to countertransference, where, as you discussed, therapy becomes too much about them. In your experience, is "holding up the mirror" strictly showing the client their behavior, or does it entail any kind of judgments and assertions about the behavior's cause? For instance, when he suggested I'm strong willed, was that holding up an accurate mirror or was his 'take'? I'd be interested in what you see the phrase meaning.

[SpinningHead]

On the subject of therapists...

I had a great therapist...I was very lucky. I believe it isn't a therapist's job to identify your personality type/traits and then label you and your behavior accordingly and then project "his/her" judgement into your relationships. That's just stupidity on their part and in this case, empty their candy dish before you run out the door!

I do, however, believe it is a therapist's job to help you get to a different place/perspective that's healthier for you. Even if it means you have to be honest w/ yourself about your life patterns, hubby, what you've always identified with and who you are now and what that means to who you want to be in life. But that discovery is your journey to identify, not anyone else's.

We have to be careful not to treat therapists as these know-alls. They're not. We have to shop around for the right one for us and we need to question their motives as well.

I had a friend who I gave this Oprah article to years ago on therapists & shopping around for the right one. The first two she went to were horrible! and she identified this right away b/c of the article...then she found her third therapist who really helped my friend through an incredibly difficult time and it really meant the difference between night and day for my friend.

[Jerry]

In your experience, is "holding up the mirror" strictly showing the client their behavior, or does it entail any kind of judgments and assertions about the behavior's cause? For instance, when he suggested I'm strong willed, was that holding up an accurate mirror or was his 'take'? I'd be interested in what you see the phrase meaning.
Dear Leslie,,
First,it is up to the client to discover the cause of any given behavior.All I do is attempt to help the client accurately assess their own behavior.Only the client knows the cause of behavior.An event or situation that causes construction of a frame of referance that underlies a given behavior in one client may not cause the same result in another client,ie.different people react differently.There is no such thing as abnormal behavior.What there is ,,,,is faulty frames of referance.Guide the client to an accurate assessment of their frames of referance,and the behavior is altered on it's own,and more permanently.Working example??? Paranoid Behavior,,,,,,,if you viewed reality through their eyes the behavior is normal.The view of reality must be corrected.The starting point of any counceling is the Intake Assessment Interview and the MMPI.Yes,I make some assumptions as to the cause of behavior based on these results,and they may or may not be correct,so I keep that information to myself.NO NO NO,,,,I would never suggest to a client that they are strong willed or anything else like that.That to me is a feeble attempt to conform their personality to some outside force.It is a loaded damaging question.What is the negitive responce ?????,,,,,,"No I am weak ?????" IMHO,,,,your councelor shouldn't quit his day job ;) and maybe consider continuing his education.
Love Jerry

[Leslie]

On the subject of therapists...
I had a great therapist...I was very lucky. I believe it isn't a therapist's job to identify your personality type/traits and then label you and your behavior accordingly and then project "his/her" judgement into your relationships. That's just stupidity on their part and in this case, empty their candy dish before you run out the door!


You are hilarious! (And I'm too paranoid to run out the door! ;) )

You also wrote: "We have to be careful not to treat therapists as these know-alls. They're not."

Yes! Too bad that the judicial system treats them as though they are. I think clinical psychology used well can be a healing art, but it's downright scary how much power someone with a license actually holds. It's far from an exact science and the clinical methodologies are really quite rough and subjective. Given these caveats, and the gross disagreement between experts, it's too bad that skeptical clients are pathologized.

As my husband teases, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" ;)

Again, how can therapists trust their impressions when they derive them from a few sessions in an artificial environment? There must be 12 things that influence a clients' behavior in session. A good thing about mine is that while he may be arriving at what I think are wrong impressions of my personality, he doesn't moralize them. I am convinced he is empathetic. He's also very skilled at managing the sessions.

Awesome for your friend and for you! Good anecdotes!

[Leslie]

Jerry,
Thanks for the explanation! Your clients sound lucky. :)
Leslie

[Jerry]

Jerry,
Thanks for the explanation! Your clients sound lucky. :)
Leslie
Ah,,,,,,thats nice on the EGO :D Just a little sidebar. The problem I have observed with a lot of Christian Councelors is they get too involved in "Saving" people.Christ already did that,,,,just try to help them be happy ;)
Love Jerry

[mstar]

"There is no such thing as abnormal behavior."

You haven't met this bunch over here.


Paranoid Behavior,,,,,,, how does it go . . .

"When did you become so paranoid?"

"When they all started to come after me."

Hey Jerry, thought I would pass on a :) . Some good info. in the posts below. Hope you and yours are well.

[Jerry]

Again, how can therapists trust their impressions when they derive them from a few sessions in an artificial environment?
If a Transferrance can be established the environment for the client can become very intense.If you have just started with this Councelor, he isn't past your Ego defences yet.Because of your level of intelligence Leslie,it will take him a while to get past that.Also MMPIs are pretty relyable I have never seen one miss the mark very far. I suspect if you were my client you would be one of my favorites,,,,,I have always enjoyed a client that keeps my feet to the fire :D
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Leslie,

Hope you get through the counselling in one piece. :) It doesn't sound much like a non-threatening environment if the book you must use triggers you.

An event or situation that causes construction of a frame of referance that underlies a given behavior in one client may not cause the same result in another client,ie.different people react differently.There is no such thing as abnormal behavior.What there is ,,,,is faulty frames of referance.Guide the client to an accurate assessment of their frames of referance,and the behavior is altered on it's own,and more permanently.

I hadn't been here long enough to know you did counselling before. That explains a lot, positively, of course! :D

Now I get it. Reality is always the same, but it is the frame of reference, the interpretation of it that could be faulty. Just telling someone to stop doing something is not enough unless they change their perception enough to know why it is good to stop. It is like when anorexics see themselves as fat, even whan looking at themselves in the mirror, when reality says that they are much too skinny.

Apparently there are whole church congregations that have altered their perception of the world so strongly that their frame of reference is the one at fault. That may be a helpful concept in forgiving those that have caused us so much pain. They are in another frame of reference that permits what they do, as some of us were, too. Of course it doesn't make it right, but then one sees how much more difficult it would be to convince them to take on another more realistic frame of reference.

I know something that you might be interested in. I have found out about the concept of diaprax, using the Hegelian dialectic of synthesis of ideas repeatedly to purposely cause a series of paradigm shifts, thus bringing believers from frame of reference A to frame of reference B with their consent but without their knowledge of how it is done. Those that use the system (although it doesn't always go by that name) intend to make believers think according to their paradigms. Programs and texts are used where you have to eventually acknowledge the "right" answer, but you are led to believe that the results were reached and agreed upon by discussion and your own consent. Peer pressure may play a role. This can be used to mislead Christians to just about anywhere if they let it be done with themselves. I have gathered some links here: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Hegelian_Dialectic_and_Diaprax.html .

I don't agree with everything in the articles, but they do give food for thought.

Carmen