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Joseph
10-23-2005, 08:07 PM
I'm a little taken by this topic, if you feel I'm ranting, it's probably because I am.
Christians automatically assume you're backslideing because I don't go to one paticular church, a floater, and they feel I am moving away from Jesus when it's quite the opposite. I have visited several churches in search of a home after I left a church that I was involved with for 5 years and I started seeing many of the same tendencies and abuses, much control and manipulation, a significant pecking order in the leadership that would lead you to feel that you couldn't be close to Christ unless you were close to them? Or maybe your relationships were hot and cold according to how much you're involved or helped out. It's normal for someone to want to be loved and appreciated and that gets taken advantage of in todays church. You may feel some intimidation because you don't feel comfortable, but do I dare speak against God? If your reading the Bible and following the what it says, not twisting it to accommodate your situation, but coming with an honest heart and spirit, you are not speaking against God, but for God. You are standing alone, independent in Christ. Isn't this the way Jesus was? I understand financial needs of a church, and it is necessary, but where is the line drawn on vanity? As a good friend of mine said to me " It shouldn't be WWJD, it should be WDJD, What Did Jesus Do?" Why would you assume what Jesus would do in a given situation which leaves everything open to interpretation, when you can study the Bible and fiind what he did do, all the answers are there. Jesus walked in Love and what I've experienced in alot of church environments is conditional love, act the way we want you to and don't question anything and we'll love you. On the other hand, we do need to lift up our churches in prayer, they are being attacked and need help. Anyone who has been to different churches in the same area, especially if you know the leaderships, have seen that most places have their own agenda and they don't really get along with the other churches or the people who run them, and I haven't even found two that have the same doctrine. Isn't that strange? Aren't we all part of the Body of Christ? How are we supposed to grow into what God has for us and what he wants us to be if we rely on this disfunction to lead us? Strong independent Christians are needed, the Church needs them, accountability will take place as the church grows with them. We need to be reading the entire Scripture instead of one line or a few words so we can justify what we want. No man can get between you and Christ unless you allow it, there is Freedom in Christ, not bondage, and remember, press into Christ and make your own decisions with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, when your standing before the Lord someday, your Pastor won't be by your side taking responsibility for what he told you to do.

Joe

Carmen
10-24-2005, 06:16 AM
I do church hopping too, for fellowship and research. My Pentecostal friends want me to commit to their church, my friend "Marco" says that I must be a part of the Body of Christ. He says that I should put my resources in to serve the church. My Italian is improving and because I speak German and English, too, type, translate, and write, I am quite attractive to them. I am in a Catholic group too, more for witnessing, social reasons and study of the movement, but am being pressured to move toward the inner circle there for the same reasons (I wouldn't, the farther in you get the more sectlike it gets in that movement). I have told my friend Marco that I cannot join his church, because I have studied a work by its founder and disapprove of the lack of doctrinal integrity and the tendency toward emotionalism - which makes one open to all sorts of manipulation. I wrote an article to back up my reasoning at least as to why I do not feel it is necessary to join any one church in my area at the moment: Is Church Membership Really Necessary? http://www.jamesfive19.com/Is_Church_Membership_Really_Necessary.html

I won't be manipulated again, even if that means not joining any church congregation on this planet. I am already a part of the Body of Christ - Basta! So I got to rant too, heh, heh. :)

SpinningHead
10-24-2005, 07:26 AM
Joe,

I need to recruit you to talk w/ my mother!

Now that I'm no longer "in church", she is pushing that I go w/ her to her AG church...this church gave me nightmares when I was a little kid b/c they had me convinced I could never be good enough to be raptured. They used fear as a huge tool for converting people to Christ...people don't fall in love with Jesus b/c Jesus first loved them, they run to Christ b/c they are terrified of Him! When I have visited her church, the same fear tactics are used to this day..."Do you know where you'd go if you died tonight? You'd better make your decision before it's too late and you're destined for hell throughout all eternity!" :eek: Do these folks have any clue what this does to a young child's mind??

Anyway, she's all "concerned" we're going to backslide and says that we "really can't heal away from church" and that we best be careful not to fall for any "lies from the devil".

I have told her straight out that I don't need her to understand our decision or like it and if she can't support what we feel we need to do at this time, that's ok too. I won't, however, tolerate talking about this subject again if she can't support us...pretty strong, right?? So the next time I talk to her all goes well until the quick jab..."It's just too bad you can't find a good church like the one I found." <<and she's out of the ring!>> :mad:

I've also had a few former church folks tell us, "we're concerned about your spiritual growth" to which I have replied, "the time for being concerned for us was when all the crap was happening...now, we're doing better and better every day being out of that place...but thanks for asking!".

Even more so :mad: , was we went out to dinner w/ church friends this past Friday night and all was well until the Mr. said, "we missed you in church this past Sunday...where were you?" He knows perfectly well that we aren't going there anymore. Mrs. even looked at him like he had 2 heads, and then told him we were at Oktoberfest. Even if we weren't at Oktoberfest, we wouldn't have been there!

ok...I'm ranting.

Willow
10-24-2005, 09:19 AM
I've done a lot of study on church history trying to resolve this issue from within myself. From what I can tell, the type of heirarchy involved in our churches today doesn't much resemble the spirit of the early church. I'll leave it at that. If I write more I may be in danger of offending someone... learning from the past here. :eek: HAHA :p

Doug64
10-24-2005, 11:19 AM
Hi:


I think Willow makes a good point.

"Church" in Jesus' day didn't have a hierarchy of humans all vying for a position. Peter asking about John's future comes pretty close though. LOL!

The sermons Jesus gave were not filled with gloom and doom for not behaving in a certain way - no dancing, drinking, cards, dating..........you can fill in the blanks.
The people were not pressured for money.


Doug

Joseph
10-24-2005, 03:25 PM
You guys are all right on! Doug's comments are exactly what I feel.
Jesus didn't hang around and remind people over and over again of their shortcomings either. And by the way, what is all the obsession with money? There are churches out there with these large ministries with construction costs from 50 to 100 million dollars.
It's crazy, to me there is no justification for that especially in the world we live in today with so many needs. I always look at situation like that and ask myself "who's really benefitting from all this? It's usually just the people running it.

Let's take the following things away from todays ministries;
Expensive cars and houses
Eating out all the time
Traveling
Tax free status
Television broadcasting
Radio Broadcasting
Fame (in some cases)
Having everything under the sun paid for by the congregation

I bet you'll thin out considerably the number of spiritual leaders we have. I have nothing and I stand boldly with God.

Willow has good insight in this situation also. I know you don't want to offend anyone, I'm the same way, but these things help you grow.

To Spinninghead, Now I no why your head is spinning, Momma's have a way of doing that! I have lots of experience with the AoG, I've come accross some not too abusive ones, and then there was the one that wouldn't let men through the front door unless they had a tie on ( Oh yeah, thats Jesus) and a bunch like you described, leaving in tears. I could never see the benefit from the fear message, it turns the church into a dictatorship. Its pretty scary seeing that AoG has one main governing body as the head, and yet their chuches all go in different directions.
Try not to worry about Mom too much, it really is immaturity in Christ, it's like putting a 2 year old behind the wheel of a car and a 5 year old next to him to teach him how to drive, alot of damage will happen before they learn. You can see immaturity in Christianity all the time just by how they constantly have their eyes on the downfalls of everyone else instead of looking at themselves. Don't worry about anyone like that, your leading your life as an example of Jesus and you'll constantly be at odds with people that think this way, Time will shine a light on this problem, then you won't be a backslider anymore, you'll be a radical!!!
Joe

Autumn
10-24-2005, 05:44 PM
:) Hi Joe :) ~
Great topic and words are balm to my weary soul. I do think that churches need prayer, the old words, pray for your enemie's comes to mind, and so I do often these days.

Oh the prayers the way they go for me, it runs the gamet of all things in my mind, but I do try to keep it honest.

I like the psalms, david was honest and blunt and god called him a man after his own heart. I only hope I am also.

For years I was so full of hate and blame until I broke so fully. It was good for me to be afflicted like david said, i have learned much. I have forever to learn.

My part in my own messes i am accountable for, this I realize. Ouch. It is a crazy world and I am just one of its members.

I'm grateful for people like you whio dare to speak your heart. Thank you, Autumn