Exposing patterns

[Joseph]

If you don't mind I would like to post some things that I went through and witnessed in my former church. I'm curious to see if you experienced similar things. I'm going to post one at a time.

How is it that when you have problems, whatever they may be, the leaders of the church are quick to tell you that there is something wrong in your life, you've done something wrong, your backsliding or you've moved away from God, and then your treated like there is something wrong with you. But on the other hand when things happen against the church, it's the devil or that classic buzzword "the adversary".

Has anyone else seen this behavior?

Joe

[SpinningHead]

YES! YES! YES! YES!

I believe that this is called "projection" and what we've talked about in the thread OutCast. You are calling attention and shining a light onto the problem...so really, you're the problem for calling attention to it and you become the subject of what you're calling attention to!

If you have a problem with this...and no one else is complaining...you must have the problem! and since you're only one voice, it's easier to squash you and minimize casualties before everyone figures this out and then we really have a broken dam!

When we asked our Pastor, how could we possibly stay in this church after what we've gone through he said 2 things...#2 is more relevant here... but for discussion's sake
#1 This is a big church and you don't have to come in contact with everyone . (Everyone meaning those involved in our abuse - even though he's included!) and...
#2 Time heals all wounds. (Mind you, no reconciliation or acknowledgement of the bad behavior was addressed....) IF time doesn't heal all wounds then it was Pastor's experience that it was b/c of unresolved sin in MY life!. :eek: And there would be no attempt to intervene in our situation...which, was really their situation also! But he specifically said that he believed everything would work itself out...Nothing works itself out...people work things out!

Now that we have left...certain people have contacted us to hear that they were sorry we were bitter and hurt (the story they're getting about our departure). We didn't leave b/c we're hurt...we left b/c we lost trust in this leadership and we witness extremely poor stewardship of funds! But noooooo....we're bitter & hurt.

GREAT POST! Sorry to ramble...have a little too much personal experience w/ this one.

[Leslie]

In my experience I think the theology of some fundamentalist pastors prevents them from viewing problems wholistically. The personal issues of the one presenting with problem are focused on, to the exclusion of the sins of other parties, systemic problems, relationship dynamics, and the like. This is problematic because it's not objective, it's insensitive, and it doesn't show God to be a God of truth. Since God IS true, he sees all aspects of cause and blame and doesn't minimize sins done TO someone just to get them to confess any guilt they may have. "There is no partiality with God".

Here's how I've seen fundamentalist theology excluding an objective assessment of problems: verses such as James 4:1 are applied in textbook fashion. The person who presents with a problem is assumed to have this "lust to have x waging war" within them. Oh, the arrogance of such assumptions. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine Bible verse. But the capricious application of it to all problems can do harm.

I keep getting booted off computer, so I'd better send quick.

I agree, Joseph, and hope you post what you've observed,
Leslie

[Leslie]

Spinnighead,
Hey, I'm so sorry to hear about the damage your church tried to do to your reputation surrounding your leaving. To me, that's one of the worst parts of SA. "Boo" to anyone who believed the gossip, as they share the guilt.

I wonder if anyone has tried legal recourse for such slander and libel? While not practical, it'd be worthwhile knowing what legal courses of action are available and could be used as deterrents.

Leslie

[Janice]

How is it that when you have problems, whatever they may be, the leaders of the church are quick to tell you that there is something wrong in your life, you've done something wrong, your backsliding or you've moved away from God, and then your treated like there is something wrong with you.

I think alot of these leaders (at least in my experience) just give "standard text book answers. They really don"t have the answers so they have to say something. After all, they "leaders: : :rolleyes:


But on the other hand when things happen against the church, it's the devil or that classic buzzword "the adversary".

Again..just my experience...my churches (or ex-churches) leaders run totally on fear! Everything against the church is always the devil trying to ruin it. God forbid the leaders may think it's actually THEM that may be the problem! :eek:

[Jerry]

Has anyone else seen this behavior?

Dear Joe....
This is very common........Mostly in churches where the Pastor has little formal education,but derives his authority from the so called "Anointing" :mad:
Love Jerry

[SpinningHead]

Spinnighead,
Hey, I'm so sorry to hear about the damage your church tried to do to your reputation surrounding your leaving. To me, that's one of the worst parts of SA. "Boo" to anyone who believed the gossip, as they share the guilt.

I wonder if anyone has tried legal recourse for such slander and libel? While not practical, it'd be worthwhile knowing what legal courses of action are available and could be used as deterrents.

Leslie
Leslie, thanks so much for your empathy. I have become very grounded in who I am as a person these past few years. When I hear gossip now, it amuses me and I usually say to the person reporting it w/ a happy smirk..."well, that kind of gossip from the church validates why we left! I'm so sorry you had to get caught up in listening to such gossip...what do you think about it?". :eek: The person usually says they don't believe it or truthfully one person said, "I don't know what to think about it" to which I replied, "to me it's sad you have to think about gossip at all".

Face gossip head on instead of trying to defend or explain yourself. Make the issue gossip...not what the gossip is making an issue of and you'll see that people will back away from you if that's their intentions. I don't care if they're gossiping behind my back...these people don't matter in my life and there's no place for their opinions...BUB-BYE!

There's my rant...so back to the subject folks! :)

[SpinningHead]

Oh! Speaking of gossip (post below)...

Since we're exposing patterns...let's address gossip shall we?

One of our experiences (that was validated in Subtle Power of SA) was that while we were in our situation and we were pointing out the committee's and leadership's obvious blunders that were going to cost the project big $$...and they did not want to listen or even consider what we were presenting (again, we were the professionals) as being a better alternative...

At the end of our meetings they would say, "we will let the congregation know about this at the appropriate time but for now, we can agree that this is church business and not for public info...we wouldn't want to start gossip." So hubby & I would agree that this was not for public rumor and never ever talked about stuff...until...

We found out that the committee members and leadership were leaking out tidbits of info regarding us! You know the kind of Christianese Gossip...

"We just need to have them in our prayers, we're really concerned that they are getting too caught up in this project and they're judgement is being effected"
Translation: They're going to dare hold us accountable! (and we won't look good!)

or my favorite..."Pray for them as we need to discuss their "interpretation" of matters...they could be vulnerable to evil right now"...
Translation: We better discredit them asap before people catch on to what's really happening and we can't snow our way out of it! What will happen if we loose the people's trust???? They won't give us any more $$!

We were even accused of being personally responsible if this church goes bankrupt! :eek:

Leadership uses gossip to cast you in a bad light before you can shine your bright light on their badness. follow? ;)

[Willow]

Joe, I have to tell you... this concept really messed with me head. When I began to pull out of my church and talk about the problems, I lost several pets all at one time. This seemed to me like punishment from god because of the teachings I'd received on this topic. Of course... "the enemy" was to blame for any accusations against the church. It was considered persecution. At some point I had to divorce myself from this kind of subjective thinking and decided that "shit happens". Yah... sometimes it's consequences for irresponsibility... (i.e. letting the cats outside where it's dangerous). I took that lesson to heart and never let my cats outside. But other times... things happen without any underlying fault. Certainly not some divine hitler throwing shirikans at me from above.

[jane]

Has anyone else seen this behavior?


In fact, we have been baptized in this behavior! :p


jane

[Carmen]

I tried posting this in response to the OP I don't know how many times yesterday and by gum, I'm gonna post it!

Lost it all ten times when I hit the Submit Reply button. Now I am typing from the copy in my computer, it refuses to paste in!

Of course the abuser always blames it on the victim. I think that the problem is that the pastors equate themselves with God's will and the visible church with the real church, i.e. Holy-Spirit-filled believers. We, those with faith, are the real living Body of Christ, no matter what those phoney pastors would wish the truth to be.

The devil is doing his current job of tempting everybody. He has to go to God and ask for permission to try anything on us. He is like a dog on a leash. Heel. Sit. Stay. If you read Job 1:6-12 and related passages this becomes clear.

There is a passage about the devil's demise in Isaiah 14. I think that this passage is primarily about the fall of the devil's principal servant on earth, but also about himself.

"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and make kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?""

The Church needs defending, synonymously with the gospel, from false doctrine and those that promote it and live it. They not only give themselves away through their speech, but also through their actions: they are unloving; un-Christlike, greedy, hurtful, self-serving, manipulative, deceptive, impatient, and the list goes on.