damaged views of God

[Michael]

I posted a long post in the other forum which deals with how I view God. I know the theology, the doctrine. I know that He is a loving, merciful God. I know about His nature and His commitment to my transformation. I have read so many authors who wax eloquent on the theme of His radical grace. Brennan Manning is the first one who comes to mind.

I "know" who God is. And at a certain level, He has managed to transform me enough that I have begun to trust Him. I even am able to find rest in Him at times. Peace and contentment are more than mere concepts to me. They're not my constant companions, but they've hung around with me from time to time.

Yet, I have to admit that I am still afraid of God. I know the Proverb which says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and I know several different ways one can deal with that verse. But I do not believe that it means I am supposed to be afraid to approach Him, that I am supposed to be afraid to believe that He might really love me. I am not supposed to fear Him as I feared my earthly parents. God, at least in theory, will not abuse me like they did.

This is the point of this post. My view of God is damaged by my view of authority figures in general because of the way I was raised. I was brought up being told that I was loved, but there were always conditions. Love could be revoked at any moment if my performance failed to meet expectations. And the idea that God punishes because of His love for us; well that sounds pretty familiar. I remember right befor the whippings hearing, "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you." BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In some ways I am grateful that I am wrestling with this question. I am grateful because to me, it signifies that I am at a point where it is essential that I recognize and face my inner obstacles to intimacy with God. I am not looking to church or a recovery group to give me the answers. I want them from God. I am not looking elsewhere for my deepest spiritual needs. I can only find them in Him. And to get to Him, I have to go through the barriers within me.

One other thing and then I'll stop. I think that my distorted views on life, my fear-based approach to living, made me receptive to those in the church who propogate simplistic, performance-based "christianity'. It felt familiar, if painful. It felt safe, if a bit constricting.

But now, I am nearing the end of my tether. I feel that God has done marvelous things in my life. My relationships with my family are so incredibly different than they were a few years ago. Incredibly healing. But I still hurt. I am still afraid. I still need more of something. I think that something is someone.

But I also have to accept that life here on earth is inherently dissatisfying because we were created, designed to be in fellowship with God. And that is not fully possible this side of heaven.

So, what's the point of this rambling soliloquy? I guess that my childhood led to further abuse, and the scars on my soul went deeper than I thought. Now it's time to let God do some more healing. But it feels like to do so He has to remove the old scar tissue -- not a pleasant or easy procedure.

End of rambling,

In His Grace,

Michael

[truth]

Hi Michael -

I'm new here.

I've read or spoken every word of your post. It feels so good to see others here that share similar perspectives.

I facilitated support groups at my former church and keep thinking how we still were just not getting real and honest about these issues. Within churches, even the support groups, there seemed to be a taboo regarding God and how you were relating to Him --- we all seemed almost apologetic when talking about where we were at with Him when it was less than wonderful.

Michael, I just feel that God does not condemn us for where we're at with Him and how we see Him and relate to Him --- He loves us and just wants us to be healed so that we can enjoy this wonderful relationship we have been granted with Him.

I am a former victim of incest and used to volunteer at a non-profit child abuse center called ChildHelp USA --- as I was there I watched the children and I thought no one in their right mind would turn to those children after what they went through and say Now what's wrong with you children --- don't you love God? Isn't He good ? what's your problem? All we could see was how much they had been through, how much love and compassion they needed in order to heal and how grateful they were for the help most of the time , that was all ---
to me, that was God's perspective , He wasn't (as my many abusive churches and church friends believed ) sitting up there saying now what's your problem ? You dont love me? bad girl twenty more lashes idiot! but thats the way i thought He felt and thats the way many of these churches talk --- well, its not the truth He is a loving God and a compassionate God and today, I for one belive that He came to set people like us free and to help us and be on our side --- with His love His grace and His mercy and "a little help from our friends" we wil get better and better! We have already been through a great deal of healing and will continue to and I belive that our lives will be used for God's purposes because you don't go through where it sounds like we've all been with it not going to be used for some purpose!

Anyway, I get carried away ---- (my husband is saying amen somewhere - He's been through alot with me!)

Truth

[Michael]

I just feel that God does not condemn us for where we're at with Him and how we see Him and relate to Him --- He loves us and just wants us to be healed so that we can enjoy this wonderful relationship we have been granted with Him.

I believe that our lives will be used for God's purposes because you don't go through where it sounds like we've all been with it not going to be used for some purpose!

Thanks for your response. I'm glad you have been able to reach out and help others. 2 Cor. 1:3,4.

God has used me in the lives of others at times. And now, I'm scheduled to do a one day men's workshop for my church in October. The focus will be on an honest assessment of where we are spiritually. How do we see ourselves, how do we see God, and what are the obstacles in our life to greater intimacy with God? A lot of tools and techniques, but mainly a lot of questions with no right answers.

And I guess it's probably good that I feel so totally inadequate for the task today. As far as compiling and presenting the material, that a lot of work, but fully within my capabilities. It's the spiritual integrity, the honesty with God and myself, that is the problem. How can I do that kind of workshop when right now I just want to run from God?

I guess I can only start where I'm at. One component of my workshop is something called Red Dot living. It's applying the principle of the red dot on directories and maps, like in malls and hotels. The red dot only identifies where you are in relation to where you want to go. There is no judgement involved. That's the purpose of my workshop, a red dot experience. And it's precisely what I need to return to in my own life.

It's so easy to go from an objective analysis to a subjective judgement. I can only give to God what I accept in my life. I must acknowledge, and even embrace, the ugly parts of me too. God can redeem them, by using them to show my the depth of my need for His mercy, grace, and love. And, somehow He can use that whole experience to teach me more about His faithfulness.

Well, I've gone on for a bit longer than I intended. Not a surprise.

Thanks again for your response and for sharing from your own story.

In His Grace,

Michael

[truth]

I guess that I would think that someone honestly struggling with his own issues in the same area of the topic of the workshop would make a fantastic leader for the group--- you sound like you're right on target to me!


truth

[Michael]

I guess that I would think that someone honestly struggling with his own issues in the same area of the topic of the workshop would make a fantastic leader for the group--- you sound like you're right on target to me!


truth

When I remember times when I was mentoring other men, and I would decide to be honest about recent failings. My fear was that they would think, "Gee, he's done all this work and he's till THIS screwed up? Why should I even bother?" But in fact what they thought was, "Wow. If he still screwed up like me, but God is still doing all these cool things in his life, then perhaps it will work for me too. He's just like me."

I remember an AA story, maybe it's in the Big Book, I can't remember. Two alcoholics went to meet with an active alcoholic who appeared to have hit bottom, having just lost his marriage and his career. Once the two men arrived at his home, he asked them each how long they had been sober. The first man said, "20 years". The second man, was a little more reluctant, but then he said, "Well, I've only been sober two weeks." The man responded to the second man, "Well, then I'll talk to you. You know where I am at right now. I'm afraid the other guy may have forgotten."

So, my challenge will be to be transparent, without appearing to take my sin lightly. I can't really worry about what any of them think about me though. That's beyond my control. I have a responsibility and a calling. As you said in an earlier post, God uses what we go through. He redeems even my stupidest choices.

In His Grace,

Michael

[truth]

I swear I'm going to stop blabbing after this post !

(this is probably why I've stayed away, before this, in getting involved with these type of internet forums --- I'm a former advertising type now stay-at home mom type with too much access to the internet right now and no one but a somewhat surly child to communicate with ! only kidding...)

yeah I do believe you're on to something with what you say, I used to be a Celebrate Recovery leader at my old church and one night I remember one of the former leaders returned to the group after about 8 months away and started to confess what she had been doing while away all addictive old stuff and it absolutely checked each and everyone of us --- the entire tone of the group changed we started to get honest and confess - but the scarey part was - until she spoke we weren't really aware we were being dishonest - and this I think is the deception and that is why your honesty , maybe even at the risk of deeper disclosure, will be so helpful and so healing for the men attending this workshop.

Most people, myself included, need a sort of permission, if you will, to get honest -
we're all scared deep down on some level to get real I think.


ps - I will be needing a referral to a recovery group,for those posting on internet recovery groups - I already see my addiction to all of this setting in - I'm through now.

[Michael]

Truth, (I have always sought after Truth, now I am actually writing to Truth. amazing! :) )

I helped start a recovery group at my former church. After I dropped out it became a Celebrate Recovery group. The levels of transparency varied greatly for the reasons you mention.

You wrote that you are a "former advertising type". I'm a graphic designer, supporting a business development and marketing group. I look at my job as helping other people communicate more effectively, usually through a visual medium, although I do edit the writing a bit at times as well. (more to make sure the message is on target, rather than anything to do with grammar or style.)

I can relate to your addictive tendencies with online forums. Just look at the number and length of my posts.

Oh yeah, the reason for this post is to thank you for your response. I really felt understood and validated. Your post also helped my perspective a bit, which has made for a better day.

Thanks!

In His Grace,

Michael

[truth]

Hi Michael,

I'm glad that something I spoke helped --- I really want to lift up not drag down but -- like every human on the planet I don't always get it right!

How interesting that you are a graphic designer -- I was a media director for ad agencies followed by a 10-year stint of owning my own media buying service --- I loved my time in the ad biz --- it was high-stress, pressured, fast-paced, I worked with every crazy that ever lived and fit in perfectly --- I was truly one of them....I left the business 8-years ago after having our daughter and (as one of my abusers at church told me) am now trying to find myself --- that assesment of me was made publicly in an e-mail to a leadership team I was on after I dared to be honest and quit the team --- of course it was immediately insinuated that I was playing into the hands of Satan, since he was trying to "scatter" the team and of course any leaving is never acceptable, and the leader publicly stated in an e-mail that she wasn't surprised I quit since they could all observe that I was flailing and trying to find myself! but they then assured me that I would always be blessed and remain "under the covering" of the women's ministry ---
(this was a new one for me I didn't realize there were coverings under coverings!)

take care, truth

by the way - what sort of church do you attend? you mentioned it regarding your workshop --- you seem like such an honest type - are you happy there, too?

[Michael]

by the way - what sort of church do you attend? you mentioned it regarding your workshop --- you seem like such an honest type - are you happy there, too?

I attend a relatively new church in a denomination that has been around for a little over 100 years, the Evangelical Covenant. According to Tom Sine (The Mustard Seed Conspiracy) the Covenant is more receptive to the emergent church than any other denomination. The Covenant prides itself on being a place where people with differing perspectives can come together. It has also made a huge and successful effort to become multiracial. There is no "doctrinal statement" in the Covenent. There are "affirmations", which really are doctrinal statements in prettier language. But even the fact that they wanted to avoid the traditional language says something. Regarding their view on women in the church: they ordain women pastors. Some churches left the denominatio when that started in the 70s.

The Covenant was started by Swedish Lutherans who immigrated to America because (among other reasons) they felt oppressed by the heavy hand of the state church. Well, enough about the denomination. It's a place where I feel comfortable, even though I don't agree with some of their practices, but even those practices stem from a desire to be inclusive. Yet, the denomination is pretty "grounded" in my opinion.

The church I attend is a church plant of my former church. The pastor at the larger church is a Ph.D. who preaches from his head. The pastor at the "daughter" church preaches from his heart. He and I meet for lunch every couple weeks for mutual encouragement. I look at him more as a friend than as a pastor. There is so much grace in his messages, yet they are not pie-in-the-sky theory either. I am just getting my feet wet there. This will be my first splash. The pastor knows where I am coming from. I've gone over the curriculum with him and he is very excited about it. He refers to it as a "God thing". He will actually participate in the workshop, without even asking to open in prayer. Is that unheard of, or what?

Of course, it's not a perfect church. And I am beginning to learn a little about the politics which are inevitable any time you involve two or more human beings in anything.



High-stress industry? What are you talking about?

The classic: Internal client walks in.

How long would it take you to do this?

Oh, probably about two hours.

Fine, I'll be back in two hours. (drops it on my desk, immediately turns and leaves. I look up and he's just going out the door.)

Wait, wait! oh crap! (and worse).

Grumble, mumble. grrrrr. I can't believe he just left like that. What an arrogant pig! I already have three jobs that are due by EOD. And I was already going to have to work until 11 or so tonight.

Phone rings (at 12:45).

Hello Brian. (a vice president, whom it is not good to disappoint.)

Do you remember that job you did for me about six months ago? (He forgets that it was actually two years ago) I need a couple quick changes before the end of the day. I'll be down in a few minutes.

(Three hours later he shows up) Here are the changes. (Mark-up is just covered in red. Half of the markings are illegible. Plus it's the fitting the 300 pound hog in the 100 pound bag now.) Oh, I'm sorry that I'm a little late getting this to you, I got tied up. But I still need it by COB. (It's at least two hours worth of work.)

Somehow between the five of us in my group, we manage to get everything done, or at least mollify everyone.

Then comes Monday. My boss says, wow, we're totally out of work. It looks like it may be light this week. You can go home, or you can stick around and wait if you want, but you'll have to use vacation time today if you want to get paid. (I live at least an hour and a half away via bus)

Oh, the joys of the consulting world. Did I mention that it's 6:00 a.m. and I am at work? Granted, I'm off to a slow start because I popped in here first. Oh well. Two presentations due tomorrow. Somehow I get the impression that this would all work better on a little more than four hours sleep.

In His Grace,

Michael

[truth]

Oh my gosh, it's bringing it all back.....I'm laughing so hard...

We used to call them "badvertisers"-- the creative people always took the brunt of it and believe me I worked with creative people who had been in alot of large market ad agencies so they had very little tolerance for the badvertiser's feedback of their work! there was one guy they used to call "Mr. ss" for for mister small space because no matter what they presented to the guy he could reduce the ad down to a rateholder business card size -- one time, I think the Creative Director (he was an older crusty guy) actually wadded up something and threw it at the guy in the middle of a meeting --

My version --- client - my wife loves Regis and Kelly - can we buy that program for the schedule? us - not really your target is younger men 12 - 18.
Or, the entire schedule's booked, media placed all over the country --- client says, "Oh, ha ha I think I made a mistake on the date it's to start! can you cancel it right away?" us - it's booked to start tomorrow! client - I know but I'll lose my job if it runs! Do something! that's your job....

My husband was raised in Meeeenisota in the Evangelical Covenant and said he thought we should try it when we were talking about where to go! we have one right down the street from my house, thanks!

good luck, still remembering my days like the ones you are describing today - I lived that lifestyle for so many years.....flashback - good ones though...

truth

[Reg]

snip

I used to be a Celebrate Recovery leader at my old church and one night I remember one of the former leaders returned to the group after about 8 months away and started to confess what she had been doing while away all addictive old stuff and it absolutely checked each and everyone of us --- the entire tone of the group changed we started to get honest and confess - but the scarey part was - until she spoke we weren't really aware we were being dishonest - and this I think is the deception and that is why your honesty , maybe even at the risk of deeper disclosure, will be so helpful and so healing for the men attending this workshop.

Most people, myself included, need a sort of permission, if you will, to get honest -
we're all scared deep down on some level to get real I think.


ps - I will be needing a referral to a recovery group,for those posting on internet recovery groups - I already see my addiction to all of this setting in - I'm through now.
Hi Truth,

I was also a leader in the Celebrate Recovery ministry at our church. http://www.bramaleabaptist.org/cr/

I went to Saddleback twice for their CR Summit. I was the Assimilator Coach and ran the info table. I gave my testimony at our first CR meeting. Spent two years there until I had problems with the leader, the Church Counselor, and someone else. I was asked to resign because I was taking too many Friday nights off according to them. The first year we arranged time off in the summer but the second summer it was different for some reason, She knew I went to the cottage every weekend in the summer and left Friday afternoon to beat the traffic. I sacrificed a number of times to be there Friday night but apparently it wasn't good enough for her. And now, they don't even run CR in the Summer. Amazing.

After that, I discovered why I withdrew my energy from the program. She was a controlling person and triggered me in several situations. Loooong story. Taught me a lot.

The remarkable thing is that they have since left the Church and I am still there and she was the Church Counselor and a long-time member. I found it amazing how things worked out. She was the only one I really had difficulties with. I have been re-injured by the experience and am a bit gun-shy of others in positions of leadership as a result. Although, it is a healthy church, abuse can still happen by those who are controlling narcissistic types.

[truth]

Hi Reg,

The people you describe were like my church -- controlling, narcissitic but I guess there's another word I would describe them to be and that is ambitious.

My step-father used to go to our church with us, he was way outside these circles and more of a casual attender unlike us - the "pillars" , right? well, anyway , I think back now that he saw it all more clearly, and a word he used to use about our pastor and the church was ambitious!

See we didn't say ambitious because that was too secular and negative we called all of the maneuvering and controlling and mess behavior - Holy Spirit Driven...that was covering a multitude of sin so a person could do some backhanded coniving thing within the church, step on toes to make themselves look good and then -- if anyone dared to call you on your behavior you told them you were being empowered by the Holy Spirit --- you'd be surprised what it allows you to do in the name of the Lord ---

When people "lead someone to the Lord" they would receive a t-shirt with a sort of chest-pounding statement that you got someone into the Kingdom of God, they gave out expensive bronze artwork as a reward to people who gave money to the building fund at high spending levels, the pastors and their wives were trained by the senior pastor to do money deals on the side in order to supplement their incomes -- the only thing was they were all colliding into each other with their moneymaking schemes and deals....anyone questioned it -- all the money is for the Lord.

Any of the pastors who were just good, kind, quiet gentle types --- unassuming were just being annihilated either by being overlooked or walked on by the barricudas there - one of them had to be put on medication just to survive in the environment, it was horrible but all "in the name of the Lord."

Sorry to go on so long --- this stuff just keeps coming up for me.





I bet you worked with some ambitious people trying to make a name for themselves, too.