The "Perfect" will of God

[Michael]

There's a post in the other forum asking about the perfect will of God. I answered there that I don't believe it exists. At least not in the popular evangelical sense of the term, that is, a preordained blueprint for your life, which God is hiding from you and wants you to try to figure out. What kind of God would do that?

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up the subject. I have seen that teaching used to abuse. Anybody else have that experience?

In His Grace,

Michael

[Katie]

Yes, I agree Michael that it is such a performance mentality.

First there is figuring out the perfect will, meaning you have to be able to hear from God perfectly without error. Or if it used in the context of getting counsel from others, then they have to hear from God perfectly. This is where you could run into abuse with someone else deciding they know God's perfect will for you.

Next, even knowing God's perfect will, then we have to perform perfectly to stay lined up with His perfect will. And then once we blow it, we're stuck with plan B because we screwed up God's perfect will.

Decision making and living become difficult because everything hinges on trying to maintain God's perfect will. Personally, I believe that many of our choices are inconsequential to God and that He is more concerned about who we are as a person than about what we do.

We are fallen people in a fallen world. I believe that God daily leads and guides us from whatever circumstances we find ourselves in. Let's face it, we screw up all the time and are totally dependent on the grace of God.

In spite of my mistakes and mis-steps, He continues to guide and direct me. If He had a perfect will for my life, I'm sure I've screwed up plan A.

Unless of course it was his perfect will for me to screw up plan A. ;)

[profnachos]

I've seen a lot of people hide themselves behind "God's will."

"Why don't you talk to the first time visitor who seems really left out and alone?"
"It's not God's will for me."

"Have you thought of going back to school and get an education to get yourself out of this dead-end job?"
"It's God's will to stay where I'm at."

How can you argue with people who claim to know what God's will is and isn't?

I remember this prayer that I heard long ago and try to apply it to my life. It goes something like, Lord, help me obey what I know to be your will instead of obsessing with what I don't know to be your will.

I need to remind myself that I have to strive to obey what I know to be his will already. Being kind to others is His Will. Being truthful is His Will. There are so many things that I know to be His will already and I already have my plate full of them.

[jane]

Prof,

yup, I heard them lines too and I love your prayer.


I heard it used to excuse why the pastor and his wife didn't visit an ailing woman in the hospital.

I hear it when people justify breaking the law....(ie; A couple in city housing with a law against taking in anyone without reporting it- took in a drug addict--- they complained later when he became dependent upon them- when I asked why they would jeopardize their housing for themselves and young children- it was God's will for them to take in this addict-- yet there was no fruit of such :confused: )

I hear it when someone had a dream to fullfill and the pastor and his wife didn't agree (aka; someone had a vision for their own life that didn't include putting their money into his wallet).

I heard it used to justify almost everything; control people; intimidate people; and numb their brains (anyone spend hours obsessing on what God's will is for their life? I have, and it is very brain numbing!)

just some more of my thoughts- I posted on the other forum as well.

jane

[profnachos]

How I let this thread slide without mentioning this story is beyond me. Okay, here we go.

I met a woman through an Internet dating service. We got together for coffee and a lunch date on a Saturday afternoon in addition to talking on the phone and exchanging emails.

One evening, she called to say, "It is not God's will for me to get into a dating relationship at this point of my life," and "It's not you, but it's me."

Geez, there was no need to be that dramatic after just two casual meetings. But anyway, a few weeks later, I found out that she was dating somebody. This after making such a grand statement about "God's will."

Just some points.
- If she had told me that she wasn't interested, that would have been a PERFECT explanation.

- If she had told me that she found someone else, that would have been even BETTER. Good for you! Great to see singles my age finding love interests. Gives me hope.

But my goodness, what is this "God's will" businss? I can picture God going, "why are you involving me in your deception? You are on your own!"

I understand people doing clumsy and dumb things in dating situations to avoid hurting feelings, but bringing in "God's will" takes it to a whole new level.

[Voyager]

I have come to believe that "being in the perfect will of God" is nothing more than being in the "perfect will" of your cult leader.

:(

[Michael]

At the church where I came to faith, a story was widely told about a young man who appeared at church on a Sunday morning a couple years earlier wearing a sandwich board covered with messages "from God". But the biggest and boldest message was that "God has proclaimed that [some poor young woman from that church] shall marry [his name]!" When the young woman arrived at church, she was mortified! This young man called out to her, voicing the proclamation. (If I remember correctly, he also did street corner evangelism.)

The saddest part of the story is that the young woman DID MARRY HIM! I don't know how long the marriage lasted. It did end though.

At that church, a friend of mine was an elder. That is, until the pastor got the church council to pass a regulation which required all elder to be within 20 pounds of insurance industry specifications of "normal" weight.

And then there was the night when a group of friends stayed up late (past 12:00) on a saturday night, telling stories and jokes and laughing a lot. In the middle of the night one of them died. The spouse called for prayer (just for support, not resurrection). Soon everyone one who had been at that home laughing heard the news. The response was, "I knew God would punish us for being so frivolous when we should have been sleeping, preparing for the Lord's Day!"

In that denomination, in every church, at least one a quarter, you can generally hear a sermon preached on being "more committed."

Prior to that I had lived in a New Age commune, studied herbs with a native american elder, been heavily involved in a pop humanistic psychology group called Lifespring, and even tried to write my own religon. I had studied about theravada and mahayana forms of Buddhism. I had been a member of the Theosophical Society (a gnostic, spiritualist group) and I had also done tons of drugs, from heroin to angel dust. And that's not to mention the adultery (I wasn't married, I just slept with other men's wives), and other sexual sins. So, when they told me I needed to repent and be really, really commited to Christ, I was gung ho! it took me many years to recover from the damage they inflicted on my view of God and what it means to be a Christian.

Back to the main point, about seeking God's will, especially God's perfect will. I thought that the reason I was alone and did not date much was because I was out of God's will, which really meant that I was not committed enough. In my twisted little brain, at least beneath the surface, what that meant was that unless I was a really good Christian, I was not going to ever get laid. How pathetic. Of course, I had no idea that this is what was going on in my head. But looking back, it's pretty clear. I was really praying, God please bless me with a wife so I can have sex whenever I want it and have someone else do my laundry. I was a spiritual giant!

Today is my 23rd wedding anniversay. Boy did things turn out differently than I expected. Thank God! The blessings I received from being married to my wife are so different and so much better than anything I could have ever imagined back then. Of course, I couldn't have imagined the down side either.

In His Grace,

Michael

[profnachos]

Those are some great stories packed into one post!

I heard stories about men approaching women and telling them that they were the ones. In fact, one of my college classmates involved in the same fellowship group did just that. One day after laying his eye on her, he told her that she was the one. The marriage lasted about 5 years.

Oh the story about regulating people's weight reminds me of the policy that MacArthur's church has. All ministry staff members must be fit which is based on what the Bible has to say about gluttony. I wonder what Hudson Taylor and Dwight Moody had to say about that? Both men were overweight, but yet they were the two of the spiritual giants of the 19th century.

It is so encouraging to read about a long lasting and good marriage. That brings a lot of hope.


At the church where I came to faith, a story was widely told about a young man who appeared at church on a Sunday morning a couple years earlier wearing a sandwich board covered with messages "from God". But the biggest and boldest message was that "God has proclaimed that [some poor young woman from that church] shall marry [his name]!" When the young woman arrived at church, she was mortified! This young man called out to her, voicing the proclamation. (If I remember correctly, he also did street corner evangelism.)

The saddest part of the story is that the young woman DID MARRY HIM! I don't know how long the marriage lasted. It did end though.

At that church, a friend of mine was an elder. That is, until the pastor got the church council to pass a regulation which required all elder to be within 20 pounds of insurance industry specifications of "normal" weight.

And then there was the night when a group of friends stayed up late (past 12:00) on a saturday night, telling stories and jokes and laughing a lot. In the middle of the night one of them died. The spouse called for prayer (just for support, not resurrection). Soon everyone one who had been at that home laughing heard the news. The response was, "I knew God would punish us for being so frivolous when we should have been sleeping, preparing for the Lord's Day!"

In that denomination, in every church, at least one a quarter, you can generally hear a sermon preached on being "more committed."

Prior to that I had lived in a New Age commune, studied herbs with a native american elder, been heavily involved in a pop humanistic psychology group called Lifespring, and even tried to write my own religon. I had studied about theravada and mahayana forms of Buddhism. I had been a member of the Theosophical Society (a gnostic, spiritualist group) and I had also done tons of drugs, from heroin to angel dust. And that's not to mention the adultery (I wasn't married, I just slept with other men's wives), and other sexual sins. So, when they told me I needed to repent and be really, really commited to Christ, I was gung ho! it took me many years to recover from the damage they inflicted on my view of God and what it means to be a Christian.

Back to the main point, about seeking God's will, especially God's perfect will. I thought that the reason I was alone and did not date much was because I was out of God's will, which really meant that I was not committed enough. In my twisted little brain, at least beneath the surface, what that meant was that unless I was a really good Christian, I was not going to ever get laid. How pathetic. Of course, I had no idea that this is what was going on in my head. But looking back, it's pretty clear. I was really praying, God please bless me with a wife so I can have sex whenever I want it and have someone else do my laundry. I was a spiritual giant!

Today is my 23rd wedding anniversay. Boy did things turn out differently than I expected. Thank God! The blessings I received from being married to my wife are so different and so much better than anything I could have ever imagined back then. Of course, I couldn't have imagined the down side either.

In His Grace,

Michael

[Janice]

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY MICHAEL!!!

I belive it's Romans 12:2 that talks about finding the "perfect will of God"

[Michael]

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY MICHAEL!!!

Thanks Janice!!! :)

Michael

[Michael]

I did a quick search on the Romans 12:2 (thanks, Janice for providing that reference!). It was interesting to see what came up. This verse can be translated from the Greek several different ways. Some of them do harm to the concept of a perfect will of God as a mysterious, preordained plan, which we are "in" or "out of".

Just for the heck of it, here are several prominent translations and paraphrases. Some of them are literal translations.


2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. [New International Version]

2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. [New American Standard]

2Don't become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking. Instead, fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the inside out. Readily recognize what he wants from you, and quickly respond to it. Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings the best out of you, develops well-formed maturity in you. [The Message]

2Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you]. [Amplified Bible]

2Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is. [New Living Translation]

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [King James Version]

2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. [English Standard Version]

2Don't be like the people of this world, but let God change the way you think. Then you will know how to do everything that is good and pleasing to him. [Contemporary English]

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. [New King James]

2and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what [is] the will of God -- the good, and acceptable, and perfect. [Young's Literal]

2 And do not ye be conformed to this world, but be ye reformed in newness of your wit, that ye prove which is the will of God, good, and well pleasing, and perfect. [Wycliffe]

After reading these, I have some questions. Not being able to read Koine Greek, I will have to rely on others. But judging by the differences between these translations and paraphrases, it appears that this is no clear-cut translation. I wonder what the word "prove/test" really means. I also wonder if the word translated "perfect" is the same word translated as "perfect" elsewhere in the NT which means "mature" or "complete"? And I wonder if there is a "perfect will of God" and an "imperfect will of God" (permissable will of God)? Or, is it possible that God's will is "thoughts and deeds which are good, acceptable, and mature"? I dunno. I'm "just a layman". (I remember being blasted by pastors for saying that when I was a new Christian. But I think they only blasted me because they felt they had to, or because otherwise there would be more pressure on them.)

On the off chance that there might be a Greek scholar or two among us, here is the Greek, in two very slightly different versions:

2και μη συσχηματιζεσθε τω αιωνι τουτω αλλα μεταμορφουσθε τη ανακαινωσει του νοος εις το δοκιμαζειν υμας τι το θελημα του θεου το αγαθον και ευαρεστον και τελειον [1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament]

2και μη συσχηματιζεσθε τω αιωνι τουτω αλλα μεταμορφουσθε τη ανακαινωσει του νοος υμων εις το δοκιμαζειν υμας τι το θελημα του θεου το αγαθον και ευαρεστον και τελειον [1550 Stephanus New Testament and 1894 Scrivener New Testament]

Interesting, the only difference seems to be the addition of υμων after νοος. But of course, it's all Greek to me.

In His Grace,

Michael

[Hope 98]

The other thing that I'm wondering is how the word "perfect" applies here. I know I've heard many times that it doesn't mean quite the same thing in the Bible as it does to Western culture. It is something more like "mature" or "complete".

I think the pastor at the church I attend right now differentiates between the "preemptive" and "permissive" will of God.

He doesn't like to minimize the significance of free will. :D

[Michael]

You know, I probably shouldn't have posted all those translations and paraphrases. I am not trying to turn this into a Bible Study. The whole subject of the "perfect will of God" triggers me a bit. I feel so strongly that the way it is frequently taught in evangelical churches distorts who God is and what the walk with Christ is all about. In my life, it's been used as a manipulative tool, and to be honest, it really pisses me off. I didn't realize I wasn't over it until this thread. But that's my problem.

I have to learn to accept that just because someone else believes something different than me it doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor is it my God-given responsibility to smack them around with scripture until they "see the light".

Good grief! It just dawned on me that I could actually be wrong about this! Maybe THERE REALLY IS a perfect will of God that I can be in or out of! If so, I'm in deep trouble. It may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but when that thought hit me I was perfectly serious.

Harmony on the essentials, freedom in the non-essentials, as they say, (or whatever it is they say that sounds kind of like that.)

In His Grace,

Michael

[DLL]

i used to tell the people at my abusive church (when they would use that verse against the kids) that just like i didnt want my kids conformed to the world, neither did i want them conformed to the church. that just because they kept all the churches rules didnt make them any better christians than the "worldly group". that they needed to be transformed to a loving relationship with God, not this pastor.