Want to leave our church. Need help.

[Drenee83]

Hi,

I found this site after doing research on spiritual abuse. After reading the articles on the Christian recovery website, I was stunned. Especially when I read the seven characteristics of a hurtful church. I thought, wow, that describes my church! I notice the power-posturing, performance preoccupation, unspoken rules, lack of balance, spiritual paranoia, and misplaced loyalty. My family and I have been attending our church for over 14 years. Our children were young when we first came to the church so this is the only church they know. My husband and I started sensing the need to leave about 4 years ago but we didn't. I came up with excuses like it might be too traumatic for the children or maybe things will change . . .! The truth is I wasn't ready. Through the years we've seen many other people leave the church including people in leadership. Some people stay at a church because they have friends. But we don't have close friends at the church. They either moved or left. I now understand that I didn't want to hurt the pastor and his wife. There are so many things that I hear and see that I don't agree with. I've been afraid to disagree with leadership which is one of those unspoken rules- don't disagree with leadership. One thing that I don't agree with is if a person leaves the church and they don't leave with the Pastor's blessing, then they left the wrong way and you're not to have fellowship with them. I know some people left because they were hurt. Almost all the people who left with Pastor's blessing is when they moved out of town.

My husband and I discussed finding a new church fellowship today. I can write about so much that has happened over the years. But I would like to know how do we approach the subject with our teenage children? Like I said before this is the only church that they know, and it's going to be a big change. For me it's going to be a scary processs. But we're ready to move on. I would appreciate any suggestions, encouragement and your prayers. Thank you and God bless.

[profnachos]

Drenee83,

Welcome to the group. You will find encouragement and support here.

Would you mind naming the church? I am in Southern California like you, so I am nosy :D If not, you can send me a private message. If not, it's okay.

I left John MacArthur's Grace Community Church in LA. Like you, I was stunned to read the seven characteristics of hurtful churches. It almost seems like the seven characteristics are what they actually strive for and actively work towards. I've posted extensively about them here.

14 years! Wow. From what I gather, your church sounds like a small one, not a mega church. I am sure it makes it even more difficult to leave.

Hi,

I found this site after doing research on spiritual abuse. After reading the articles on the Christian recovery website, I was stunned. Especially when I read the seven characteristics of a hurtful church. I thought, wow, that describes my church! I notice the power-posturing, performance preoccupation, unspoken rules, lack of balance, spiritual paranoia, and misplaced loyalty. My family and I have been attending our church for over 14 years. Our children were young when we first came to the church so this is the only church they know. My husband and I started sensing the need to leave about 4 years ago but we didn't. I came up with excuses like it might be too traumatic for the children or maybe things will change . . .! The truth is I wasn't ready. Through the years we've seen many other people leave the church including people in leadership. Some people stay at a church because they have friends. But we don't have close friends at the church. They either moved or left. I now understand that I didn't want to hurt the pastor and his wife. There are so many things that I hear and see that I don't agree with. I've been afraid to disagree with leadership which is one of those unspoken rules- don't disagree with leadership. One thing that I don't agree with is if a person leaves the church and they don't leave with the Pastor's blessing, then they left the wrong way and you're not to have fellowship with them. I know some people left because they were hurt. Almost all the people who left with Pastor's blessing is when they moved out of town.

My husband and I discussed finding a new church fellowship today. I can write about so much that has happened over the years. But I would like to know how do we approach the subject with our teenage children? Like I said before this is the only church that they know, and it's going to be a big change. For me it's going to be a scary processs. But we're ready to move on. I would appreciate any suggestions, encouragement and your prayers. Thank you and God bless.

[bad girl]

Wow, you are dealing with the same thing I am. I left my church a year ago and my 16 year old son wants to stay with the youth group. We have continued to drop him off and pick him up at the former church for over a year now.

I continue to ask people to pray, as I do not feel comfortable forcing him out, but I may be making a mistake. I unknowingly, after I left, found out about a situation where a youth was treated similar to me. The damage was severe and she will probably need several years of counseling just to deal with this. I to went to counseling for a while, though I still have a lot to work through.

My friend did remove their entire family, though the children are having difficulty adjusting.

Everyone's situation is different, but my point is that your child is likely to be treated like you were eventually.

I recommend total honesty. I told my child the situation and he still wanted to stay. Perhaps yours will choose to leave.

It has been scary for me too, and I am not over it yet and it's been over a year, but you just have to do it. I am having a "wave of anger" day because I am struggling with several things that are hard to cope with about the changes.

Pat

[jane]

welcome.

I left our church a year ago May 16th. We tried to leave with the Pastor's blessing- met with him in February to tell them that we felt God was calling us to leave. They disagreed and so we went through one of the worst experiences of my life. They finally got their tentacles off of us somewhere around October. The way I figure it, they got too caught up in all their christmas productions to remember us anymore- THANKGOD.

We have a 17 year old, a 5 year old and a 2 year old.

We were honest with our 17 year old. Want to know what? He saw it a long time before we did and was only too glad to leave. You might get surprised. Children are pretty smart about things while we adults are still pretending that everything is alright.

anyway, my heart goes out to you. Honestly, I believe that there was more damage to our children while we were there more than us leaving. Our true friends remained so, I think. They became few suddenly. It was a shocker but over a year later- I wouldn't do a thing different. Our marriage and family is 100% stronger than it has ever been!

jane

[Michael]

I had wanted to leave our church for several years, but my wife had friends and family there. When we began attending there, my sons were 10 and 7. We were there for seven years.

While the church was not very abusive, I had been known to say in private that the highest value at that church was that all things are done in an orderly manner. During the time the pastor was on a three month personal restoration time, which the church forced him to take, he came in to the office every day "to check his e-mail."

The church was a "nice" middle-to-upper-middle class suburban church. All problems were supposed to have tidy solutions. When a couple people complained openly about not being ministered to in the midst or divorce or depression, a recovery group was established. I was one of those who started it. Everytime I saw the pastor, he wanted to know how it was going. At the church board meeting, I think I disappointed people because I did not have "success" stories. Afterall, wasn't that the point of the ministry?

My wife and I began talking about leaving because our sons were obviously not getting anything out of their experience there. I realize that is different than your situation.

We began visiting another church sporadically. The difference between the two churches was dramatic. One church was about control, the other about honesty and grace. My wife and I had coffee every Sunday afternoon and prayed, asking God for guidance.

While I have serious reseverations about the whole idea of putting out a fleece, we finally agreed one Sunday that after church we would talk to our sons about the issue and see how they felt. After church, as soon as they got in the car, one of them said, "Man, I hate this church!" the other one agreed. So, we discussed the idea of changing. We discussed why we were leaving, and the process that had led to that point. We talked about what we were looking for in a church. We also talked about the positives we saw in the other church.

So, the things that were important in our process were to:
- pray together about it privately, asking God guidance, for a period of time
- once we felt guidance, we involved our sons in the discussion
- we were honest with them about the process, the pros and cons of staying and leaving. We sought their input. My wife and I were ultimately responsible for the decision, but it had to be something that our family did together.

My best friend is in an abusive church. His wife grew up in that denomination. His in-laws are retired missionaries in that denomination. My friend is a former pastor in that denomination. But his children, who are in the process of leaving the nest one-by-one, love their friends and youth group. So, my friend has decided that he will stay there until his youngest (now age 10) graduates from High School.

I asked him why he would do that if he had no respect for the leaders of the church, and felt that their version of Christianity was all about externals? How could he keep his children in that environment? But he's human, and it's easier for him to avoid the decision. He is conservative enough that if he decided that the family would no longer go there, they would no longer go there. (I prefer a consensus approach). But if he made such a decision, there would be very strong consequences (passive-aggressive) within the family. So he tries to invest time with his children. He has gone on numerous hikes with his older son, who is soon to move to an unnamed Asian country with a repressive government. My friend is also reading "Blue Like Jazz" with his 17 year-old son. So his approach is to try to mitigate the damage and avoid the explosion.

Well, I've rambled on for quite a bit. This clearly falls under the dictum: "Take what works, and leave the rest."

In His Grace,

Michael

[Drenee83]

Thanks, Michael, Jane, Profnachos, and bad girl for sharing your stories and for your encouragement and suggestions. It's great to know that we're not alone in our challenges.

Oh, Profnachos, I don't feel comfortable sharing the name of our church. But I can tell you that it's a Word of faith church in San Diego County.

[profnachos]

Thanks, Michael, Jane, Profnachos, and bad girl for sharing your stories and for your encouragement and suggestions. It's great to know that we're not alone in our challenges.

Oh, Profnachos, I don't feel comfortable sharing the name of our church. But I can tell you that it's a Word of faith church in San Diego County.

Thanks, Drenee.

Word of Faith? The pastor of the largest church in the world which is of a Word of Faith variety is my namesake. His name used to be Paul Cho, but now it is David Cho. Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland are also among the well known teachers. Are we talking about the same thing?

Do you feel disillusioned just with that particular church and the pastor or the Word of Faith movement in general? I personally have deep reservations about the whole movement (if we are talking about the same thing, that is) which I see as a breeding ground for spiritual abusers, but this forum is not the right place to debate such matters, so I won't, and I hope I haven't offended you.

But I must caution you against jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. The church where I saw a lot of abuse (John MacArthur's Grace Community Church in LA) had a lot of disillusioned people who left the Word of Faith movement. They found MacArthur's commitment to doctrinal purity refreshing and novel, and wholeheartedly bought into his system which I think is far more dangerous than the Word of Faith movement.

Obviously MacArthur's church is not the only fire people jump into from the frying pan, but that and legalism seem to be one of the most popular destinations for ex-Word of Faith people.

[Janice]

Welcome to the forum.

I have no particular advice on how to handle your situation with your children...I just wanted to affirm that I understand how you feel.

I've recently just left my church. (only been a month) but, my hubby still attends. He is a board member and a church member. I am not allowed to become a church member because I smoke. We've attended this church for 8 yrs.

Pastor and his wife are very good friends of ours. Hubby grew up with him. We've gone to dinner together, been on vacations together and we even have each others' house keys.

They are away on vacation right now. They will be home in a few days then hubby & I are going on vacation. I'm really concerned. I've quit all my positions and handed in all my church keys to hubby the other day and told him to give them to Pastor. I know...unfortunately...that this will be the end of our friendship because they are much like your church. It's thier way or the highway.

Unless one leaves our church to move away, or become a missionary then those people are considered "bad seeds" and the pastors say that God is just weeding out the bad seeds for new growth. But we're not growing! More & more people are leaving.

I was talking with my hubby the other day and I told him for the first few years. I went to the church for me. The last 4 or 5 yrs. I've been going for him. Ya know...be by his side, play the board members wife etc. I told him I just can't do it for him anymore. It hurts me too much.

Every Sunday I would literally get a knot in my stomach when it was time for church and I would be miserable. So this is all still very fresh to me and I'm not even sure I've made the right decision. I AM going this Sunday only because they are installing new carpeting and I want to see what it looks like, (Totally rotten aren't I?)

But..just wanted to say welcome and let you know your feelings are validated.

[Jerry]

1,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JUMP !!!!....We are here for ya ,keep posting and welcome ;)
Love Jerry

[Michael]

I was talking with my hubby the other day and I told him for the first few years. I went to the church for me. The last 4 or 5 yrs. I've been going for him. Ya know...be by his side, play the board members wife etc. I told him I just can't do it for him anymore. It hurts me too much.

Every Sunday I would literally get a knot in my stomach when it was time for church and I would be miserable. So this is all still very fresh to me and I'm not even sure I've made the right decision. I AM going this Sunday only because they are installing new carpeting and I want to see what it looks like, (Totally rotten aren't I?)

Janice,

First of all, that doesn't make you totally rotten at all. You have invested a significant number of years in that church. It's natural to want to see the results of a major physical change to the building.

Secondly, congratulations on taking the step you have. It is a brave and admirable thing you are doing. It may not feel that way, and other undoubtedly will condemn you for it. But, in taking this step, you are being honest with yourself and your husband. I applaud you for your courage.

In the past, I have prayed that God would convey the depth of your pain to your husband, and that he would acknowledge his clear biblical responsibility to love you as Christ loved the church, sacrificially. If he wonder why his prayers are not being answered, he need only look again to scripture. It also says that if a husband does not treat his wife that way, his prayers will not even be heard. Obviously, God takes this very seriously. In my opinion, in this matter, your husband's first responsibility is not to the church. It is to you. But others may read scripture differently. I would guess that your pastor certainly would.

One other thought. Regarding the issue of your leaving the church, if your husband does not respond, at least for the most part, out of love and caring for you, then it really doesn't matter what he does. If he responds out of "duty", either to you or the church, then God is not honoured. That would be very sad.

Please continue to take good care of yourself. You are a special person.

In His Grace,

Michael

[ex-shep]

Welcome aboard!!

I had a chance to glance at your post as had to go out to run errands and get to work. Make yourself at home. Feel free to share whatever is on your heart or mind. You are not alone. If you want to browse the posts for a while and "listen", you are more than welcome to do that as well.

I need to take some time to answer posts in detail. I am sorry to hear of your situation. In the meantime, virtual coffepot is always brewing and tea kettle is quietly steaming. :)

[lynn]

My husband and I discussed finding a new church fellowship today. I can write about so much that has happened over the years. But I would like to know how do we approach the subject with our teenage children? Like I said before this is the only church that they know, and it's going to be a big change. For me it's going to be a scary processs. But we're ready to move on. I would appreciate any suggestions, encouragement and your prayers. Thank you and God bless.

Hi,

I had small children when we left our old church, so my main concern was to leave before they could be brainwashed or turned off of God altogether. If your church truly is abusive, then this is the best decision you can make for your children. Keep that in mind when you talk to them. As parents we are responsible for protecting them no matter what. Show them what the bible has to say about abuse of power (see the Pharisees) and Christian conduct. Then give them some examples about how your church conflicts with this. This will be a valuable lesson for them to learn to think for themselves and not allow anyone to manipulate them.

Glad to hear from you!

[Janice]

[QUOTE=Michael]Janice,

First of all, that doesn't make you totally rotten at all.

Well..that's debatable.

You have invested a significant number of years in that church. It's natural to want to see the results of a major physical change to the building.

I've invested a significant amount of $ to that carpet offering! I'll be damed if I'm not going to at least SEE it!

Secondly, congratulations on taking the step you have. It is a brave and admirable thing you are doing

"Tis also debatable.

It may not feel that way, and other undoubtedly will condemn you for it.


Undoubtedly!

One other thought. Regarding the issue of your leaving the church, if your husband does not respond, at least for the most part, out of love and caring for you, then it really doesn't matter what he does. If he responds out of "duty", either to you or the church, then God is not honoured. That would be very sad.


Something interesting....hubby had a meeting with the Christian Ed. Director yesterday and I thought for sure he would come home and tell me that he changed his mind as was not resigning after all.

But guess what? He didn't! He said his letter of resignation still stands.

I feel good about it in one way but I feel bad too because I told him if he returned to this position this year that I would not and could not support him in it.

I HAVE NEVER NOT SUPPORTED MY HUBBY IN ANYTHING!! Now I can't help feeling like I MADE him quit and that makes me feel terrible! *sigh*

[Michael]

I didn't realize that he had resigned. That's pretty cool. Perhaps he recognizes that you have always been there for him, and is responding out of respect for your long-standing love and support for him--and because of his love for you.

You did not force him to do anything. You were honest about your feelings and your struggles. He made a choice. It took him a while, but some of us men are a little slow like that sometimes.

In His Grace,

Michael

[ex-shep]

It has been scary for me too, and I am not over it yet and it's been over a year, but you just have to do it. I am having a "wave of anger" day because I am struggling with several things that are hard to cope with about the changes.

Pat[/QUOTE]


the anger is part and parcel of the recovery process. Not a picnic. Feel free to process as you feel comfortable.

[ex-shep]

It has been scary for me too, and I am not over it yet and it's been over a year, but you just have to do it. I am having a "wave of anger" day because I am struggling with several things that are hard to cope with about the changes.

Pat[/QUOTE]


the anger is part and parcel of the recovery process. Not a picnic. Feel free to process as you feel comfortable.

[Drenee83]

Thanks, Drenee.

Word of Faith? The pastor of the largest church in the world which is of a Word of Faith variety is my namesake. His name used to be Paul Cho, but now it is David Cho. Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland are also among the well known teachers. Are we talking about the same thing?

Do you feel disillusioned just with that particular church and the pastor or the Word of Faith movement in general? I personally have deep reservations about the whole movement (if we are talking about the same thing, that is) which I see as a breeding ground for spiritual abusers, but this forum is not the right place to debate such matters, so I won't, and I hope I haven't offended you.

But I must caution you against jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. The church where I saw a lot of abuse (John MacArthur's Grace Community Church in LA) had a lot of disillusioned people who left the Word of Faith movement. They found MacArthur's commitment to doctrinal purity refreshing and novel, and wholeheartedly bought into his system which I think is far more dangerous than the Word of Faith movement.

Obviously MacArthur's church is not the only fire people jump into from the frying pan, but that and legalism seem to be one of the most popular destinations for ex-Word of Faith people.
I feel more disillusioned with our church more than the Word of Faith. I don't agree with some of the Word of faith teachings. I feel the teachings focus on reading, studying and speaking the Word in order to change your circumstances. but I feel I should read and study the Word to learn more about Jesus and to change my heart to become more like him.

[Drenee83]

I feel more disillusioned with our church more than the Word of Faith. I don't agree with some of the Word of faith teachings. I feel the teachings focus on reading, studying and speaking the Word in order to change your circumstances. but I feel I should read and study the Word to learn more about Jesus and to change my heart to become more like him.

I wasn't offended by your comments. I grow up in a Christian home. My father was a minister so I feel I had a good foundation in studying the Word of God. My father taught us to read scriptures in context and not to take the preacher's word but study for yourself. As I began to do that, my spirit didn't agree with some of the teaching's of my pastor. Our pastor always emphasizes that he can back his teaching up by showing us in the Bible. For a long time that confused me because he was preaching from the Bible but I didn't agree with what he was saying.

[butterfly]

:) Welcome Drenee, I am sorry you and your family have been abused.. The worse part leaving church was losing friends. :( My sons were teens when we left. We all saw the abuse at the same time. It was a very painful time. We were very glad to get out of there. butterfly

[Drenee83]

Hi Lynn, thanks for your encouragement and advice. I think about how this church has affected their spiritual life. But I know that God can heal and restore what has been lost in their lives. Hi,

I had small children when we left our old church, so my main concern was to leave before they could be brainwashed or turned off of God altogether. If your church truly is abusive, then this is the best decision you can make for your children. Keep that in mind when you talk to them. As parents we are responsible for protecting them no matter what. Show them what the bible has to say about abuse of power (see the Pharisees) and Christian conduct. Then give them some examples about how your church conflicts with this. This will be a valuable lesson for them to learn to think for themselves and not allow anyone to manipulate them.

Glad to hear from you!

[Drenee83]

It's interesting that you mentioned about leaving church and losing friends. My girls have close friends there but my husband and I don't have close friends. We have acquaintances. But all of our close friends moved or left! Thanks for sharing.:) Welcome Drenee, I am sorry you and your family have been abused.. The worse part leaving church was losing friends. :( My sons were teens when we left. We all saw the abuse at the same time. It was a very painful time. We were very glad to get out of there. butterfly

[Janice]

I didn't realize that he had resigned. That's pretty cool. Perhaps he recognizes that you have always been there for him, and is responding out of respect for your long-standing love and support for him--and because of his love for you.

You did not force him to do anything. You were honest about your feelings and your struggles. He made a choice. It took him a while, but some of us men are a little slow like that sometimes.

In His Grace,

Michael

Let me clarify....he didn't resign form being a deacon, ( HOw i wish he would!, he resigned rom being the Sr. Commander of the Royal Ranger program we have. (for boys)

[profnachos]

I feel more disillusioned with our church more than the Word of Faith. I don't agree with some of the Word of faith teachings. I feel the teachings focus on reading, studying and speaking the Word in order to change your circumstances. but I feel I should read and study the Word to learn more about Jesus and to change my heart to become more like him.

Word!

Thanks Drenee83. That is so true about changing our heart, not our circumstances. Thanks for the reminder.

[Doug64]

Hi Drenee83:

A lot of good comments for you to mull over. I don't have anything to offer as our children were all grown when we left our former group. None of them attend anywhere on a regular basis, but the good things they were taught are still in memory somewhere. I'm hopeful that the errors will become clear to them as time goes by.

Welcome.

Doug

[ex-shep]

Hi Drenee83:

A lot of good comments for you to mull over. I don't have anything to offer as our children were all grown when we left our former group. None of them attend anywhere on a regular basis, but the good things they were taught are still in memory somewhere. I'm hopeful that the errors will become clear to them as time goes by.

Welcome.

Doug

True, I was able to collect good memories and anecdotes of my groups. If they were not good, I would not have joined in the first place.

[Voyager]

I have witnessed a lot of families leave our former abusive church. The ones that had teens in the church always faced the biggest dilemma. Sometimes the kids would see the abuse, but because it's all they've ever known they will turn a blind eye to it in favor of not losing the relationships with their life-long friends. Who can blame them?

Based on what I have seen and experienced, I think it can be damaging for a parent to try turn their kids against their friends based on doctrinal beliefs and religious debates. To try to tell Junior that he has to cut Billy off as a friend because he is involved in an abusive church can cause a volatile reaction. I have seen kids turned against their parents over this. It was very ugly. It took the kids almost a two years to wake up to the abuse. When their parents tried to convince them of it, it backfired. The parents were even disallowed to attend one of their daughters weddings in the midst of it. Fortunately, the family has reunited and the kids now see that their parents were right - but it took almost two years of hell for this to happen.

Anyway, if I had teens in an abusive church and I wanted to leave, my first priority would be to keep my relationship with my kids intact. I don't think it's worth making a stand and losing your kids over it. I would do what I felt that I had to do, and let the kids make their own choice. I would state that I believe the church is abusive and I am no longer going to attend. Then I would tell my kids that they could still attend the church if they wanted. I would not try to stop them from being around their friends from the church. In time, they may lose some of them anyway - but it would not be blamed on me.

This is a very touchy situation you are in, and I commend you for posting this question. That was a smart move. It could very easily go either way for you. Your kids could see it your way, or they may not. Either way, they probably will not be ready to just cutoff their friends. These doctrinal debates can be much more serious to adults. Kids usually don't take their religion that seriously. They look at their friendships as being more important than their religion.

Peer pressure is a very powerful thing for teens. It can make them do things that they don't really want to do (steal, smoke cigarettes, smoke pot, drink alcohol, have sex, etc.). It can also make them want to stay in a church. Peer pressure is usually more powerful than the influence of family members. The majority of teens end up allowing the influence of their friends to supercede the influence of their parents. The only way to effectively work through this dilemma is to have a strategy. I've seen it go both ways, and you should be prepared for whichever way your kids choose to go with it.

Now, if one of your kids is in a one-on-one mentoring relationship with an abusive church leader, that's another story. I would get them out of there as fast as possible. But if none of your kids are being influenced by a church leader in this manner and they are pretty much making their own decisions in their life, I don't see as much cause for alarm. They will eventually take your lead and see the abuse for themselves. I would personally let them see it in their own time, and not try to browbeat them to leave the church.

Hope this helps.

:cool:

[Drenee83]

Thanks, Voyager. Your advice and encouragement was very helpful. My husband and I had a discussion with our girls today about how they felt about the church. I wanted to get an idea of how they viewed the church. Their response was "The people are fake!" We gave them a chance to vent. It was interesting to hear their perspective. We haven't told them yet that we wanted to leave because it wasn't the right time. I felt that it's wise advice to let them make the choice and keep our relationship a priority instead of doctrine. I like that advice, and I agree. I know of one teen whose mother left the church but he stayed for awhile but he eventually went with his mother. I know another teen whose family left but she still attends. I think it will be a growing experience for all of us. One lesson that I want the girls to learn is to think for themselves and not go with the flow. Thanks again. :)