For discussion, 1 of 2

[Michael]

In your opinion, what are the three most important external characteristics in a healthy church? (how things look objectively)

In your opinion, what are the three most important intangible characteristics in a healthy church? (how things feel subjectively)

FWIW, in this thread, I personally, would be more interested in what works than what doesn't.

In His Grace,

Michael

[InTheory]

In your opinion, what are the three most important external characteristics in a healthy church? (how things look objectively)

In your opinion, what are the three most important intangible characteristics in a healthy church? (how things feel subjectively)

FWIW, in this thread, I personally, would be more interested in what works than what doesn't.

In His Grace,

Michael


Postive Externals "Short List":
1. Diverse membership (i.e. representative of the surrounding geographical area)
2. Relaxed "Dress Code."
3. Lots of cool band instruments on the worship team (okay, these are MY preferences...)

Positive "Intangibles Short List":
1. Genuine people (warm greetings, relaxed conversation).
2. Air of grace and acceptance (i.e. welcoming of different traditions and ideas)
3. Sense of God's presence (i.e. God's love, warmth of the Spirit, "good vibe," etc.)

Just "Dan's" ideas... :) :)

[jane]

external things;

1) Do you see evidence of Isaiah 58 (food pantry, clothes donations, prison ministry)?

2)Do you see documentation of where the money is being spent?

3)Do you see evidence of a love for the children (is there a playground outside? a nursing mothers room? a loving atmosphere for children)?


Intangibles;

1) Do you see people being drawn into a greater presence of Jesus for themselves? The real fruits of the spirit and not a false humility.

2) Do you sense a hierachy of importance in positions?

3) What is the real vision that the people are serving, not the written vision statement but where the "peoples" hearts are.


I guess I may have a few more thoughts but you said the three most important.

jane

[Michael]

Well, here's my take on it:

Externals:

1. There is diversity in the body and leadership; (racial, economic, gender, age, etc.)

2. Visitors are actively welcomed, but not overwhelmed; there is a balance between respecting thier privacy/space, and making sure that they feel valued as fellow Children of God (and never as potential recruits!)

3. The pastor preaches about responding to God's love, rather than God's laws. The pastor gives evidence in his words and deeds that he is actually walking this talk. He (or she, I guess - although I've never been to a church with a woman pastor) demonstrates an appropriate degree of humility and vulnerability in his messages. It is clear that God is at work in Him, and that he preaches from his heart, not just his head.


Internals:

1. I feel that I am "understood" by at least some of the body, and hopefully, by the pastor.

2. I feel that there are people in the body with whom I can be honest without fear of rejection; I recognize that this takes time to develop, but in the beginning, I at least feel that the potential for that is there

3. I feel that my values (genuine grace and compassion, intellectual/theological freedom, non-manipulative involvement in the community) are reflected in the tangible priorities of the body.

In His Grace,

Michael

[Doug64]

Hi:

The bases are all pretty well covered by the previous three posts.

I am beginning to doubt that there is any "perfect" church. The ones which embody the majority of the aforementioned traits would be at the top of my list.

As long as one has the freedom to disagree, the atmosphere should be reasonably healthy.

Doug

[Michael]

I am beginning to doubt that there is any "perfect" church.

Yeah, there are no perfect churches, because they are all made up of human beings. Anytime you have one or more humans involved in anything, there will eventually be discord, failure, pettiness, selfishness, etc.

I may be an idealist, but I believe that God can, and does, work in and through various churches at various times in ways which fulfill the expectations on my list. But I believe that it's rare and often short-lived. Human ego and neediness get in the way of the Holy Spirit so quickly and easily. And then, there's the involvement of the enemy.

The church I go to now has quite a few of the traits on my list. I feel very blessed. However, I haven't been there long enough, or gotten involved enough to see the dark side. Every church has an underbelly. But I'm in no hurry to find it at this church.

In His Grace,

Michael