Question for Discussion

[spongfan]

What do you think of the United Church of Christ's decision in favor of homosexual marriage? I have to say, "Way to go, UCC!!!!" Has anyone heard of their "God is Still Speaking" campaign which was so controversial? I knew about it long before it happened, because I know some UCC ministers. Anyway, you can find reference to it on the UCC website if you are curious.

I was really mad that some of the churches around my area pulled out of the UCC, but I am so proud of the UCC for taking this stand! Indeed, if Jesus were here, he would not turn anyone away- I believe this with all my heart. If we are the hands and feet of Jesus, we too need to display this attitude!

Way to go, UCC!!!! :D

Spongfan :cool:

[Michael]

I hesitate to say anything. However, it saddens me that so many people who have Biblical issues with the homosexual lifestyle choice, are labeled as intolerant or homophobic. I totally disassociate myself from those who carry signs and scream, "God hates fags". I tend to align myself more with Don Miller (Blue Like Jazz) who feels that it is perfectly compatible for a Christian to love homosexuals as individuals, without endorsing homosexuality. I feel that Christ's response to homosexuals is probably similar to the adulterous woman in scripture. He did not condemn her, but he also told her to sin no more. I think he feels the same way about gluttons, materialists, liars, (all three describe me), etc.

I am not saying these things to escalate your post into a debate. I respect your position. I happen to disagree with it, but do not condemn you for it. I believe we have both come to our positions through sincere, open study of scripture.

For me, the key issue is not whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not, but whether Christians automatically reject a person because we judge their particular sin to be particularly abhorent, making the "sinner" unworthy of our love. From my perspective, that's where spiritual abuse begins when it comes to the Christian response to homosexuality.

I am not at all surprised that we have different perspectives on this issue, Spongfan. I think it is much like the abortion issue -- it is very unlikely that anybody's mind will be changed through debate because these issues go to the core of identity.

In His Grace,

Michael

[profnachos]

Very well stated, Michael.

Spongfan, I too feel just as most conservative Christians do, that homosexuality is a sin which should not be condoned. But I've also taken issue with Christians' chronic preoccupation with fighting homosexuality and abortion as well. (shameless plug coming ahead) I wrote an extensive essay on my blog about conservative Christians' misguided moral selectivity. (http://davidcho.blogspot.com/2004/11/moral-selectivity.html)

I also acknowledge that as a straight male, I will never have to deal with homosexaulity and abortion in my own personal life, and that makes it easy for me to be against those two practices.

Just my two cents.

[Kerrin]

am not saying these things to escalate your post into a debate. I respect your position. I happen to disagree with it, but do not condemn you for it. I believe we have both come to our positions through sincere, open study of scripture.
am not at all surprised that we have different perspectives on this issue, Spongfan. I think it is much like the abortion issue -- it is very unlikely that anybody's mind will be changed through debate because these issues go to the core of identity.

In His Grace,

Michael

I too, hesitated, waiting for "a response" before responding.
My brother was gay,
Stephen died at 25 of a HIV related illness; he was infected at 20 y/o.
He was sexually abused as a child.

He gave his life to Christ 2 years before his sympton's showed, and signed his little New Testament bible, the 'Sinner's prayer' , and left it to me in a tin with other bits and pieces, after he died,( he'd gotten the tin from Harrod's in London), after he died.
( That is a personally signifcant thing).

Stephen knew my stance on Homosexuality, he also knew I loved him no matter what.
I loved him.
I detested his lifestyle.
I never, (to the best of my knowledge made him feel ashamed or guilty).
He ceased being "active" after that prayer, but he struggled so much.
I NEVER saw the Church offer him any hope! :mad:
THAT was what was so very sad , when he turned to Christ, the Church turned their back!
His funeral was in a Funeral home..........wasn't allowed in a church!!

The irony was he asked me to organise most of it as a Christian service , celebrating life!!!
So, I oppose the promotion of a homosexual lifestyle, but it's about the people.

Churches are to love ALL people, no matter what.
AS I often tell Amy, you can hate the "sin" but love the person!
That means we open the door!
I hope that makes some kind of sense.
More than anything, I loved my brother, and he knew his homosexuality was a sin, but he need not feel ashamed for it, he needed help and love and he got neither from the Church! :(

Respect your opinion, just differ that's all,
love
Kerrin ;)

[jane]

Ditto.

I don't single out any sin, I am not gay so I wonder if it is even my business, but I found myself happy with our local church for leaving the UCC because they held on to their convictions. (Wethersfield Connecticut).

Jesus told the leaders to cast the first stone at that girl if they were without sin. BUT He also told her that He forgave her BUT to sin NO more.


where do we draw the line? Even if you feel there is no distinct call that homosexual is a sin; fornication is.

not debating. just my opinion.

Jane

[Hope 98]

I just need to say that I have NO clear answer to any of these questions.

The Bible does specifically state that it is wrong for "a man to lie with a man as a man lies with a woman".

I understand the concept of "hate the sin, love the sinner", but how exactly do we live that out?

We see people as BEING heterosexual or homosexual, rather than DOING. Is a celebate person, who is attracted to members of their own gender sinning?

The church generally considers homosexuality a "bad choice", while I've never heard anyone say that they believe they "chose" to be gay. Do heterosexuals recall choosing to be straight?

Most of all I wonder what makes this particular sin more grievous than any other, though all sexual sins seem to be at the top of the scale and clear proof of rebellion against God, while victims of violence and abuse are required to "repent of their unforgiveness", rather than question the perpatrators relationship with God.

Then there are priests and other religious leaders who are only shuffled into hiding when they are caught molesting young boys (or having affairs, or any number of sexual offenses).

The woman brought to Jesus was "caught in the very act" of adultery.
Where was the man she was with? Wouldn't he be just as guilty?
Didn't Jesus say that the man without sin could throw the first stone?
When he told her to go and "sin no more", what exactly did that mean? My understanding is that God does not require anything of us that he doesn't empower us to accomplish. Did he send her off to struggle with her temptations alone? Or maybe she wasn't tempted, but was abused or raped.


I started this post by saying I have no answers - thinking of the original question for discussion. I don't have answers to the questions that were GENERATED by that question.

The trouble is that most of us here have learned that QUESTIONS themselves are acts of rebellion and I KNOW that's not right.

If we ask for wisdom, God says that he will give generously without finding fault. We, as humans, may not have enough wisdom to give generously - but maybe we could do less fault finding in each others' questions. (I know that I'm guilty too)

[Katie]

These were very well stated responses. I agree with all of them.

"It is perfectly compatible for a Christian to love homosexuals as individuals, without endorsing homosexuality."

Yes a homosexual can come to Christ, and I think it's the Holy Spirit's job to bring revelation and conviction regarding their sexuality. My personal opinion is that God would not create someone to be homosexual and then declare it a sin. I personally think God says it is sin because it is a lifestyle that is damaging to the individual. Because of His love, He warns of the things that will hurt us. But just like other sins, I believe it is the job of the Holy Spirit to do the work of transforming our lives.

I think that homosexuals, like all other sinners, should be welcomed to the church and to Christ with open arms. Too many churches seem to be about behavior modification rather than lives transformed by the Holy Spirit. I think with this and many other sins, the idea is to just cover up and start acting right. We need places of grace where people can be allowed to be in the process of the Holy Spirit transforming their life, instead of getting perfect before they walk in the door.

I think as Christians we should love one another during this process and take care of the logs in our own eyes. I think overall that churches have been unwilling to trust the Holy Spirit to bring transformation, and they mess up the process by making lots of rules.

The church hasn't been very good at displaying the love of Christ to homosexuals. Based on results, I would consider that a failure, and I understand why they feel rejected by the church.

[Michael]

Spongfan,

What was the nature of the discussion you were intending to start with your initial post? Whether or not homosexuality is a sin? Your post seems to quickly lead to such a discussion. I am not saying that Christians should not discuss this issue. They should. But, I wonder, is that discussion germane here? Just curious.

In His Grace,

Michael

[Flo]

We see people as BEING heterosexual or homosexual, rather than DOING. Is a celebate person, who is attracted to members of their own gender sinning?

This is a great question. Jesus said that those who "lust" are committing adultery. I guess there's really no getting around the fact that we're all sinners in need of Jesus.

What I struggle with is that homosexuals want their lifestyle to be endorsed by the church. Like Michael, I'm a glutton, materialist, and liar, but I don't ask the church to endorse those behaviors just because I am what I am. I look to Jesus for grace and mercy and to the Holy Spirit to transform me.

I was 27 before I got married and my husband was 30. We were both virgins. Were we attracted to the opposite sex? Sure. Did we act on it and ask the church to endorse it? No. If I had never married, I hope and pray that I would have been able to remain a virgin my entire life.

Maybe they are out there, but I don't hear about homosexuals who are or plan to remain virgins or celebate.

[jane]

I'm a glutton, materialist, and liar,

YOU HAVE ME ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING!!!!

You by your statements are probably less of a liar than most!

I just want to say that your statements are exactly my sediment. I don't agree with homosexuality BUT (and this is a really big BUT) I don't know if we as christians should single out the homosexual community the way that we do. I don't see the Love of Christ in the bashing of gays that I see by Christians.

I don't see Christians yelling at people to stop being liars, gluttons and materialists.....

That is what I disagree with- that the Christian Community has a modern day witch hunt for homosexuals, liberals and abortionists.....

But I also disagree with the churches who legitimize homosexual marriages. It is one thing for a government to do so but not the church.

just my opinion- although this topic probably does not belong here....

jane

[magicbear]

hey jane....... FWIW.......... just HOW big a but is it?????? :p :cool: ;) :eek:


hahahhahahh it was just too good to pass up isnt that right jerry???


hmmmmm i hear them..... pop pop pop pop pop jersey AND australia BOTH


hopefully your amused- Robert

[Katie]

Robert,

I thought that too.

My sediments exactly! ;)

[jane]

:o ummmmmmm apparently not as big as the foot in my mouth :o

jane

[jane]

and what does FWIW stand for????

jane

[Michael]

and what does FWIW stand for????

jane

For What It's Worth. :)

[Michael]

You by your statements are probably less of a liar than most!

There I was sitting in a room with a hundred other male sex addicts, minding my own business, when reality hit me in the face like a dead salmon. The leader had just introducted himself with the usual, "Hi, I'm INSERT NAME HERE. I'm a sex and love addict." Then, the standard response, "Hi, INSERT NAME HERE".

But then he went and ruined things. He said, "And, I'm still a liar, cheat, and thief." My immediate thought was, "Interesting. I remember when I used to be those things."

Then came the internal questions. *heavy sigh* "Used to be? What about . . . . " several very recent incidents came to mind. I was busted! I don't know if it was the Holy Spirit or just a hyperactive conscience. But I had to admit that I was also still a liar, cheat, and thief. I hadn't knocked off a convenience store, or cheated on my taxes or my wife, and I hadn't told any direct, bald-faced lies lately. But what about the way I use my time at work, and then the way I filled out my time sheet at the end of the week. And the office supplies in my desk at home. Hmmm, where did those come from?

And, where does Matthew 5 come into play. If our hearts are the birthplace of sin, then I have a nestfull of vipers hatching every few minutes.

From that point on, I cringed every time I saw that this same gentleman was going to start the meeting. Another reminder of the truth. It happened enough times that I finally just started calling myself those things.

And, they may be just as true every day for the rest of my life. If left to my own devices that will certainly be the case. Afterall, I am butt dust.

Men [and women] occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened." -- Winston Churchill

In His Grace,

Michael

[magicbear]

LOL thanks katie very glad that a female also saw the same humor..... I also

think the talk about music lent itself as well..... sir mix a lot anyone hahah

hiphop hiphop wheres veleveen rabbit???? She could do a perfect hiphop


;) :p :rolleyes: :cool: :eek:


Robert

[Tim]

I can safely say that without exception each of has a shadow side to our sexuality (in thought, word, and deed) that we'd just as soon keep hidden deep within the unlit corner of our spiritual broom closet.

I did a little housekeeping in my own personal broom closet by way of a 4th and 5th Step as part of my alcoholism recovery. Honest confession of the truth about ourselves, revealed to God and to another trusted human being is a ticket to freedom.

Make of this what you will.

[Kerrin]

;) Ahh; "Hate the sin ,and love the person" (sinner , I prefer NOT to use, because we are ALL sinners!)

Good question: How do you actually do this??

With my brother it was easy. I hated him being gay, but I loved him, and I would have swapped places with him if It would have to keep him alive!!

It is still a challenge though isn't it?
Because not ALL people are very "loveable".
I guess that's why there are so FEW Mother Theresa's around. :rolleyes:

My hope is , I can aspire to love all people; it's interesting because, in my job, I have cared for, ( when other nurses and Doctor's have refused on "moral" grounds!),women who've had abortions , murderer's, adulterer's, Politician's, actor's, gays, drug addicts etc., etc...yet all I saw in the "bed" was a sick person deserving of the same care as the next person.
You know in those hospital gowns, everyone pretty much looks the same!

Just a few thoughts.....
Love
Kerrin ;)

[Hesed]

But then he went and ruined things. He said, "And, I'm still a liar, cheat, and thief." My immediate thought was, "Interesting. I remember when I used to be those things."

Then came the internal questions. *heavy sigh* "Used to be? What about . . . . " several very recent incidents came to mind. I was busted! I don't know if it was the Holy Spirit or just a hyperactive conscience. But I had to admit that I was also still a liar, cheat, and thief.

Michael: Thank you for the frankness of this post (if you don't want to call it honesty).

I've done a lot of thinking about what I call "the issue that dare not speak it's name", given that my denomination (the British Methodist Church which is in communion with, but separate from, the United Methodist Church in the US) is thinking about this issue and given that I will be training to be a minister. I have to say that I've struggled a lot with it. I'm not a fundamentalist but I do try to take the bible seriously. At the moment, I'm leaning toward the idea of faithful, monogomous, lifetime relationships for gay people. I won't go into the "whys and wherefores" of my reasoning here, because I think that many of you have hit on the central issue....whatever our view.....so...

THANK YOU, everyone, for seeing that homosexual sins are not the sin to end all sins. Thank you for understanding that we are all sinners. Thank you for understanding that sins like greed, gluttony, selfishness, etc., are equally serious sins. (I guess I probably think that pride is about the worst, most destructive sin.) Thank you for not being "holier than thou" for not being gay and I will promise in return to not be "holier than thou" about my views.

I do sometimes think that the gay issue has become a huge red-herring for the Church of Christ on earth and that it is distracting us from the real Gospel. It seems to me that everyone who has so far contributed to this thread has been able to see the real issue here. Perhaps that's a result of having come out of abusive churches?

[Blake]

As someone who has come out of a struggle with homosexuality..I will say that homosexuality is scripturally unnatural, but that isnt about the person, but the practice. One hing i am non negotiable on, is that just becasue a lot of us have been spiritually abused, doesnt mean that wat people preach is wrong..but the WAY it has been done is wrong. Adn there is a lot of false doctine- I totally agree...

Homosexuality was sen to be a mental disorder by te American Psychiatic assocaion until the pro-gay lobbyist placed so much pressure on them, they took it off..

I realsie this is a sensitive subject but in my mind, its not a nautural thing and I have yet to meet a gay person wioth no psychological scars...


I realise I will trigger people bt go to www.exodusinternational.org and see thier ideas....

I can say that this is such a moot point, but God does have a better way, and trust me..I have seen the shame this lifestyle rings..especially in the church..I love all gay people but I woudl pray for people in the theatre industry....

I know we are debating, but scripturaly, I cannot see any blessing of God for this way of life unless you apply pro gay theology to it..whihc is what it is actually known as..

I will be unpopular for syaing all of this, but I am not sorry in the least. Ive been through iot and can speak with authority on this.

[Hope 98]

I just want to note that this thread has been indeed a discussion. Bravo to all involved and Thank You God!

[Blake]

Thats good. Cos Im getting really irritated by people getting upset by people's ideas and accusing them...we need to share and not be nasty.

[Kerrin]

Personally, I never saw , or viewed this thread as "nasty" or abusive to anyone.

It has been an interesting discussion of differing views , yet a mutual respect I would assume.

And at the very least, it has helped me to talk "through" some more of my grief at losing my brother.
Some regrets at not spending more time with him, but so very pleased he knew I loved him, despite my opinion on his homosexuality, and other struggles!
(He was no different to me, really when I think about it, in actual fact we were so alike, I was just as promiscuous; but with the opposite sex!!, And we had the same perfectionistic tendancies, and addictive traits as well. :o )
So, I welcome any further discussion.
I agree the Church ,for the most part, has made this "sin" appear worse than any other, but I agree, sin is sin, whether we like it that way or not.
I don't believe God gave us a scale of measuring one sin against another.

THANK YOU GOD for NOT doing that!

Great discussion!
Love
Kerrin ;)

[butterfly]

:( :( :( I get a broken heart when I hear christians hating homosexuals. They are human just like us. What sins they do is between them and God. Just like the rest of us. Why do they hate them so much? :( :( I have a cousin who is homosexual and has a partner. They have a nice home and good jobs. They are loving and kind to everone. I do not agree with their lifestyle. There is one christian who loves them in Christ ME!! I have had a very bad abusive life growing up. In home and outside of home. Since I was a little girl I have always had a tender heart for others. This I am thankfully for. My ex legealstic friend doesn"t understand how I can love them because of what they do. I love them because they are human and God tells us to love one another. Most of all I know how it feels to be unloved and judged. butterfly

[Hope 98]

:p :( :( :( I get a broken heart when I hear christians hating homosexuals. They are human just like us. What sins they do is between them and God. Just like the rest of us.
butterfly

Yep - just like the rest of us.

The thought that has been most prominent in my mind lately is "if God forgives ME, why not anyone else?"

We love because God first loved us.

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Is there anyone on earth who came to Christ and became instantly perfect?

Who has the right to judge which sins are worse than others? (I'm pretty sure it's not me :p )

I have to admit that I'm not sure how we're supposed to treat homosexuals or anyone in one of those "high-profile" sins. Generally speaking, the Christian community doesn't seem to be willing to love the sinners.

I've seen tremendous compassion in individuals for people caught in sexual sin, but the "official position" of the church seriously compromises the power of the Gospel.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Kerrin]

It's as simple as black and white!
Sin is Sin!
We are ALL sinners, and thank God, He gave us Jesus, so that He views our sin as equally as sinful as the next sinner!

The Church Like to think they preach that they love ALL people, but they don't!
They judge, according to a self designed, "sin scale"!!

Like I said earlier , put everyone in a hospital gown and they ALL look the same!
(You can't tell the rich from the poor, the gay from the heterosexual, or adulterer or rapist, murderer, or Politician, actor or whatever....)
THEY all look the same, and in my hospital, they get treated with the same respect and dignity as the next person'; what they do/have done, is irrelevant to my job of 'caring' for them!

Off my soap box, methinks, I best go and do "something" productive!! :o

Love
Kerrin ;)

[lynn]

I believe I read that this site is not meant for doctrinal arguments and this is a hot one! I will answer Spongfan's post in regards to spiritual abuse. Refusing to condone sin is NOT spiritual abuse. Acting as though homosexuality is worse that any other sin and being hurtful toward a homosexual can be abusive.

[Hope 98]

I believe I read that this site is not meant for doctrinal arguments and this is a hot one! I will answer Spongfan's post in regards to spiritual abuse. Refusing to condone sin is NOT spiritual abuse. Acting as though homosexuality is worse that any other sin and being hurtful toward a homosexual can be abusive.

That seems to be the consensus here if I read it correctly. I know it is what I've been trying to say (though I used a lot more words). I also believe that it's a point worth making.

Considering how hot a topic this is, I thought this group handled it really well!

:)

[Michael]

A cool (and relevant) story by Rich Mullins:

I remember one time Beaker and I were hiking on the Appalachian Trail, and he met some friends of his, so I walked into town. It was about a five-mile walk from the campsite down the trail . . . down into town. And when I got there I went into a restaurant and I was having a steak, and this guy started talking to me and we had this great conversation. We were having a good time, and he said, "Hey look, it’s dark and it’s five miles up the road to your campground. Why don’t I drive you up there?"

And I said, "Hey, Great!"

And so we got in his car, and just as we pulled out from under the last light in that town, the guy said, "You know what, I should probably tell you that I’m gay."

And I said, "Oh! I should probably tell you that I am a Christian."

And he said, "Well, if you want to get out of the car . . ."

I said, "Why?"

And he said, "Well, I’m gay and you’re Christian."

I said, "It’s still five miles and it’s still dark."

Then he said, "I thought Christians hated gays."

I said, "That’s funny, I thought Christians were supposed to love. I thought that was our first command."

He said, "Well, I thought God hated gays."

And I said, "That’s really funny, because I thought God was love."

And then he asked me the big one. He said, "Do you think I will go to Hell for being a gay?"

Well, I’m a good Hoosier, and I puckered up to say, "Yes, of course you’ll go to Hell for being gay." I got ready to say that, but when I opened up my mouth it came out, "No, of course you won’t go to Hell for being gay." And I thought to myself, Oh My God, I’ve only been in New Hampshire for one week and already I’m turning into a liberal! What am I going to tell this guy now?"

Then I said to him, "No, you won’t go to Hell for being gay, anymore than I would go to Hell for being a liar. Nobody goes to Hell because of what they do. We go to Hell because we reject the grace that God so longs to give us, regardless of what we do."

[Tim]

We Christians love to gang up on certain sexual behaviors and excoriate folks who behave that way, while exculpating ourselves and our own distorted sexual lives. Let him or her who is without sexual sin cast the first stone at homosexuals.



A cool (and relevant) story by Rich Mullins:

I remember one time Beaker and I were hiking on the Appalachian Trail, and he met some friends of his, so I walked into town. It was about a five-mile walk from the campsite down the trail . . . down into town. And when I got there I went into a restaurant and I was having a steak, and this guy started talking to me and we had this great conversation. We were having a good time, and he said, "Hey look, it’s dark and it’s five miles up the road to your campground. Why don’t I drive you up there?"

And I said, "Hey, Great!"

And so we got in his car, and just as we pulled out from under the last light in that town, the guy said, "You know what, I should probably tell you that I’m gay."

And I said, "Oh! I should probably tell you that I am a Christian."

And he said, "Well, if you want to get out of the car . . ."

I said, "Why?"

And he said, "Well, I’m gay and you’re Christian."

I said, "It’s still five miles and it’s still dark."

Then he said, "I thought Christians hated gays."

I said, "That’s funny, I thought Christians were supposed to love. I thought that was our first command."

He said, "Well, I thought God hated gays."

And I said, "That’s really funny, because I thought God was love."

And then he asked me the big one. He said, "Do you think I will go to Hell for being a gay?"

Well, I’m a good Hoosier, and I puckered up to say, "Yes, of course you’ll go to Hell for being gay." I got ready to say that, but when I opened up my mouth it came out, "No, of course you won’t go to Hell for being gay." And I thought to myself, Oh My God, I’ve only been in New Hampshire for one week and already I’m turning into a liberal! What am I going to tell this guy now?"

Then I said to him, "No, you won’t go to Hell for being gay, anymore than I would go to Hell for being a liar. Nobody goes to Hell because of what they do. We go to Hell because we reject the grace that God so longs to give us, regardless of what we do."

[Blake]

I also have a theory I was sharing with God last night...

ex-gay ministries want to be gracious to people in homosexuality and sopw them the love of God, but I have seen so many times (having been minsisterd to in this type of mnistry personally) that a wild hysteria at times arises, where anything that even smackas of teh past does get shuned and at times a wild fundamentalism takes place which is spurred by the thought..

'What if I fall into a gay realtionships again?' and by doing this...having this idea, it become homophobic and paranoid and hystrionic and woe betide I as a Christian even do a play (as an actor) with a gay character..I did a gay charcter for an Oscar wilde play and I asked God why he put me in this a few years ago, I thougt He said 'So you know you wont fall!!!!'

For this reason I tend to be slightly wary of ex-gay minsistries as they do WONDERFUL WORK but at times breed a fanatiacism that worries me. I am not agianst commitment6 to jesus at all (none of us here atre in the least0 but I am against fanatical cu;tish behaviour.

[HooHa]

Hi all,
You don't know me, but I've been lurking on your forum for several months. I didn't intend to introduce myself this way, but I now can't help myself. The time is ripe! :D

I wanted to say thank you to spongfan for your post! My partner and I and daughter are members of a UCC church, and we could not be happier about the synod's action on behalf of same-sex couples desiring marriage. We would *so* get married if we could, and we are so proud of our denomination! I could say lots more about this, but the main thing is that we're so happy!

The reason I initially started reading this forum is that my partner and I previously belonged to a church that was spritually abusive, though we didn't know that term at the time. The minister subjected members to lying, manipulating, gossiping, breaking confidences (pastoral counseling was *not* considered confidential by him). Of course he was very controlling and always wanted more of our money and our time (even after we had a baby and were both working full time jobs). He was doing at least one illegal thing while we were there, and most of us former members suspect there was more though we can't confirm. We didn't find out until later that he was also verbally (and probably physically) abusive to many people, but usually in private so that people didn't know about it until later when we started talking to each other. As you can imagine, there was lots of bad stuff that happened--I won't list everything now as it's so *much.*

So that's what brought me here, and I want to thank you for your help though you didn't know you were giving it. You all confirmed many of my hunches and gave me lots of insights that have both helped me in my recovery and helped some other former members of that church. Your experiences and insights were right on the money.

Another reason I wasn't hurrying to post to the forum was that I wanted to wait and see what happened to that church and denomination it was affiliated with. We have been out of there for almost two years, so we've had some time to recover and catch our breath a bit. Also, I wanted to wait and see if the denomination was really concerned about the abuse or was more concerned about covering it up or covering up their own responsibility.

The amazing thing that has come of this is that the denomination this church was affiliated with has taken great care to help former members heal/recover from the effects of the minister. A few months ago, the denomination appointed an elder to investigate the situation at this church--no one is sure exactly how the denomination caught on to the problem, but it did. The elder solicited information from as many former members as she could reach, and that info formed the basis for judicial charges to be brought against the minister, who was put on leave until the process was completed. The minister, in classic form, resigned his credentials on the eve of the judiciary process being started and *encouraged* the church to disaffiliate from the denomination, which it did. The timing was perfect! How convenient to not have to answer to charges because you're not a member of the denomination any more.

So the judiciary process stopped, but the denomination offered four weeks of healing/recovery facilitated by a minister/social worker, and having been to two of these, I can tell you that they are legit. I was afraid it might be some church bureaucrat telling us all that we were overreacting or that we should keep quiet or what-have-you. But no, they have been truly healing times. We have all been allowed to share our experiences and feelings, and the elder gave us a lot of information (except for confidential stuff she couldn't share to protect the minister's confidentiality in the judicial process) about the process by which the church had been identified as a problem as well as what the denomination had been trying to do to bring the minister to accountability for his behavior. It's amazing to see how people can be healed (not completely in four weeks, but significantly) by having their experiences and feelings heard. The information was important, too, because I think one thing so many people need who have been in such a situation is to understand it insofar as it can be understood.

None of this is to say that all of this good stuff outweighs the bad, the abuse so many of us experienced. I still have a lot of aftereffects from being treated the way I was treated by this minister and his henchmen/henchpersons, some of whom were almost worse than the minister. I have a lot of things I still have to work through and understand and feel, but these recovery/healing meetings have really helped me.

I had no intention for going on for so long! Again, thank you to all of you who have been posting here--I think I was in slightly better shape than some of my other comrades because of this forum. For one thing, I knew this minister was not unique, and that much of his behavior was "classic" spiritual abuse. So I am grateful.

Thank you for reading this incredibly long introduction!

Love and Peace.

[butterfly]

:) Hooha, Welcome to the forum. :) I am glad to hear you found some help here. It is so good to have other people understand what I have gone thru in church. You are blessed for finding a good church. They are hard to fine. butterfly