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Zacchaeus
09-02-2004, 04:39 PM
Hi guys,

Posted this up on my blog earlier today.

__________________________________________________ _______________

"Oh, my God!" - "Jesus Christ!" - "Christ Almighty!"

Three simple and indeed biblical expressions which, when said in the wrong (or right?) context are universally regarded by Christians (and some non-Christians) as blasphemy. But, can these statements truly be said to "take the Lord's name in vain" when the people who use them would not profess to "know God"?

Should we be looking elsewhere?

In recent years, I've become increasingly uncomfortable around Christians who claim to have a hotline to heaven; who believe it is their divine duty to give those in the immediate vicinity a running commentary of what God is doing at any given moment. Quite apart from the control this potentially gives over weak-minded individuals, I find this behaviour incredibly presumptuous toward God. Indeed, such is the regularity with which the Almighty speaks to these people that one would be forgiven for thinking that the God of the modern charismatic is something of a chatterbox! One need only consider what the old testament prophets had to endure to actually hear the Word of the Lord to derive some perspective.

The problem as I see it is one of accountability; or rather the lack of it. Up and down the country, each week, in church services, home groups, and prayer meetings, people are prophesying... at least, they believe they are prophesying. I should say that by prophesying I am referring generally to those utterances which the giver claims (although mostly it is assumed) to come from God and which can take the form of any one of the four revelatory gifts of the spirit - prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits - or indeed all four for the multi-taskers! The subject of the utterance is usually prefixed by expressions such as "God has told me that...", "I believe the Lord is saying...", or for those AV die-hards the classic, "THUS SAITH THE LORD..."


* * *

It is 2001 and a young, dynamic couple want to pray with and encourage a single woman from their home group, in her early 40s, who is beginning to despair of ever finding a husband. They settle down to pray, and after a few moments of quiet reflection, the husband sees in his mind's eye an image of a tall man standing beneath a sign that says "2002". Now, because he claims to "operate in the prophetic", he believes this is from God. Confidently, he describes to the woman what he is seeing. They finish praying for the woman who goes home filled with joy, dreaming of her wedding day, honeymoon, and of course her husband.

Fast forward to 2004 and the dynamic couple have moved away to start their exciting new life in ministry. Meanwhile, the woman they prayed for in 2001 is now in her mid-40s, still unmarried, and taking quite heavily to drink. A tragic situation but one which is becoming all too commonplace in the modern church as, without any real accountability, "prophetic" Christians casually attribute God's finger to their "vain imaginings".


* * *

Before looking for solutions, we need to give this problem its proper name: FALSE PROPHECY

Despite what many churches believe, one cannot practise hearing from God. Either you hear him or you don't? You don't practise seeing, do you? You either see or you... enlist the services of an optician! For too long the church has allowed people to simply get up and "prophesy" with an attitude of "oh well, so and so loves the Lord and is simply trying to exercise his/her spiritual gift" or "oh well, we only see through a glass darkly after all" instead of acknowledging that if "so and so" is wrong they are actually taking the Lord's name in vain and committing FALSE PROPHECY. Now, practically, what was "prophesied" may well be harmless. Most Christians who believe they operate in the prophetic tend to hedge their bets anyway; in other words, their divine utterances are general and could apply to just about anything! Although this practise is still wrong, my major concern is really for victims of TARGETED FALSE PROPHECY, like the woman in her 40s who are left, at best, confused and, at worst, destroyed!

So, what is the Church doing to address this problem? Not a great deal, I fear. You see, charismatic-pentecostal churches are identified for their emphasis on the spirit, so, "prophesying" has become an integral part of church life. Also, "prophets" can be a rather proud bunch who find it very hard to admit that they are ever wrong. This is simply because to question a prophecy would bring into question the "prophet"'s ability to hear God which, in turn, would raise questions of faith. Let me be clear on something: I believe in the possibility of prophecy. But, I'm afraid the vast majority of that which seeks to pass itself off as prophecy is in fact false or what the old testaments spoke of as "prophesy(ing) with their minds".

To any self-confessed or wannabe prophets reading this, remember the words of Jesus before you hastily claim to speak for God

"Lord, Lord we prophesied IN YOUR NAME. Be gone from me... I NEVER KNEW YOU!"

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I wondered what you guys thought...

Peace,

Zac :o

OldEnt
09-02-2004, 08:15 PM
The problem as I see it is one of accountability; or rather the lack of it. Up and down the country, each week, in church services, home groups, and prayer meetings, people are prophesying... at least, they believe they are prophesying. I should say that by prophesying I am referring generally to those utterances which the giver claims (although mostly it is assumed) to come from God and which can take the form of any one of the four revelatory gifts of the spirit - prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits - or indeed all four for the multi-taskers! The subject of the utterance is usually prefixed by expressions such as "God has told me that...", "I believe the Lord is saying...", or for those AV die-hards the classic, "THUS SAITH THE LORD..."


* * *

It is 2001 and a young, dynamic couple want to pray with and encourage a single woman from their home group, in her early 40s, who is beginning to despair of ever finding a husband. They settle down to pray, and after a few moments of quiet reflection, the husband sees in his mind's eye an image of a tall man standing beneath a sign that says "2002". Now, because he claims to "operate in the prophetic", he believes this is from God. Confidently, he describes to the woman what he is seeing. They finish praying for the woman who goes home filled with joy, dreaming of her wedding day, honeymoon, and of course her husband.

Fast forward to 2004 and the dynamic couple have moved away to start their exciting new life in ministry. Meanwhile, the woman they prayed for in 2001 is now in her mid-40s, still unmarried, and taking quite heavily to drink. A tragic situation but one which is becoming all too commonplace in the modern church as, without any real accountability, "prophetic" Christians casually attribute God's finger to their "vain imaginings".


* * *

Before looking for solutions, we need to give this problem its proper name: FALSE PROPHECY


Zac :oZac,

It's my observation that on this forum there is a sizable group of participants who have experianced spiritual abuse (SA) in a Charismatic context. (I'm am not saying that SA dosen't happen in non-charismatic contexts. It does. It happened to my family and me.)

I have always been concerned about how so called "prophecy" lends itself to abusive situations. Also the Bible is VERY clear that if a so called "prophet" makes a prediction and that perdiction does not come true, that so called "prophet" is indeed a FALSE PROPHET! That alone ought to make many a so-called "prophet" be extremely careful regarding any "prophacies" he/she makes, ESPICIALLY WHEN MESSING WITH OTHER PEOPLE"S LIVES AS IN THE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE!!!!! (Yes my BP is up.....makes me madder then who knows what..:mad: .) The Bible is sufficent for all we need to know to live a Christian life. The canon is complete. The only prophets I need to know about are found in that book. ....my 2 cents...

Old Ent

Emerging
09-02-2004, 09:00 PM
Great topic, guys! Thanks Zac for bringing it up and Old Ent for adding unto it.

My thoughts are that there are varying levels of prophecy, from when a mom keeps a better eye on her child and so the child doesn't get hurt. Or the people who miss the flight that crashes. Then there are "Repent or be destroyed" level prophecies uttered to entire countries such as we read about in the OT. And there are so many levels in between.

Plus, today's righteous prophecy may not come true for various reasons. We saw that in the OT when Jonah was ordered to tell the people to repent, he didn't want to, he got swallwoed up and changed his mind, warned them, they repented, no destruction. It was all righteous prophecying, but the people repented so it didn't come to pass ... because it didn't need to.

In fact, someone once said that every prophecy of destruction that does come to pass ... can be viewed as a "failure" on the part of whoever to repent and behave.

More accountability? YES! Very needed for sure!!

Thanks again for a great topic. I look forward to more of them as time goes on. :cool:

Oopsie Daisey
09-03-2004, 11:56 AM
I, too, find your topic very intersting.

Look forward to hearing more.

Melanie~ :)

Jerry
09-06-2004, 10:48 AM
Dear Zac,,,,,
I think your post is right on,,,,,,,,There is a certin Christian Broadcast,where they frequently have a "Word of Knowledge" it amazes me that there are those who actually buy it!!! It truely violates the spirit of the commandment,,,,"You shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"....The word rendered in our Bible as vain,in Hebrew, means "emptyness"...To paraphrase,,,,You shall not claim to have the Lords word when He has not spoken!!!!!! If one is going to accept what they claim on that Broadcast,,,,,,,,,Well ya might as well consult the "Sybiline Oricals of Delphi" also.......
Love Jerry

Hope 98
09-06-2004, 08:55 PM
Hi folks,

Good to see y'all again :)

I really appreciate this thread. I'm often rather frustrated by people who will go to such lengths to avoid "cussin'" and behave so irresponsibly "in the name of God". I hear ya about false prophecy - too many think they are supposed to be competing with the phone psychics. I just consider "taking the Lord's name in vain" a very very different thing from blurting out "god" outside of prescribed context.

Hope

Hol
09-07-2004, 07:07 AM
Zac, I appreciate this perspective and the fact that you shared it. As I continue to try to sort myself out of the 'church' I was 'discipled' in, I deal with certain parts of that quite often. But the whole prophecy thing... I don't think much about that.

But looking at it this morning after reading your post, I see that all those prophecies along the way have taken their toll, and added to the confusion and distress that I still deal with. They were a big factor in the 'collapse' we suffered.

I'm feeling a pain around this that I haven't felt in a long time. Because when we left our church (we were pastor and worship leader) closed behind us, I didn't look back at church or much at God for a long time.

And the truth is, I spent alot of time and emotional strength 'trusting' and trying to 'believe' the prophecies that were spoken over us. It makes me sick, now, to think of it. I wonder now, what was God really saying to us? Prophecies not only set you up for disaster, but also block you from hearing what God is saying to YOU if it doesn't quite sound like the prophecies... add to that the influence of a 'pastor' who has an agenda for you, and you can get a real screwed up life.

God rescued us from that scene, and has graciously provided us with a decent life and living even though we didn't do what we should have been doing to set ourselves up for a secure, opportunity filled future. But it still makes me sad and a little angry to think we spent so much of our youth chasing something that wasn't God after all.

Well, this was a long reply, wasn't it. It stirred me. Obviously I think you are right on. I wish someone would have come along back then and called all that crap for what it was. I still have a couple of tapes of prophecies from those days. I figure someday I'll listen to them, just out of a sense of morbid curiosity. Probably not a good idea.

Thanks for getting me thinking, and putting a finger on a spot that needs fingering. I've been out of the 'loop' so long that I didn't even realize they still do that crap.

Zacchaeus
09-07-2004, 10:14 AM
Thanks for the responses guys,

It seems that those of us who went the charismatic/pentecostal route are extremely sensitive where this subject is concerned. And so we should be. Those b******s used us to give themselves a bigger profile. After all, modern prophecy seems to have the "wow" factor doesn't it. "Wow, he hears from God. Wow, she has the Word of the Lord". I reckon prophets must be in the church's A-list of celebs... until they fail of course!

The last time somebody tried to suggest what the Lord might be saying to me, I asked him whether he planned to stick around to see whether the Word of Lord came to pass. He asked me why... I said "because if you're wrong, I tend to favour the Old Testament's treatment for false prophets". He laughed uncertainly. I did not.

Peace,

Zach

Alice
09-07-2004, 11:46 AM
Hey, Zaccheus! I wrote you a private e-mail; don't know if you received it; I sent it from your website (I am the website: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com)......what you said was so beautiful. My therapist loved your website, and intends to contact you (he was a member of the Worldwide church of God)....got out of it...He says Hertfordshire is the headquarters? I wasn't aware of that, of course......Thank you so much for your lovely words of healing about my website: Did you have a chance to read "My Story"---it's about the reason I wrote (or rather poured out) over 160 poems of anguish/healing and hope---I have since written 20 more, but they aren't on the website. The best words I ever learned from my (gift from God) therapist were "Restorative Justice"-----I wrote the pastor (of disaster) and requested (2 years after they voted me out of (legalistic) membership after 31 years........the "Biblical" request for compensation for what I had to pay in therapy because of what he/they did to me.......(it was a masterpiece if I do say so, LOL)....both the therapist and attorney (yup, I got an attorney at my therapist's urging) didn't think the "pastor" would take me seriously, but I was right, LOL---he DID----his insurance company called me, and we are now in negotiations......that's the Reader's Digest version of my story! Thank you again, for your kind, wonderful remarks! Sincerely, Alice (overcomer and wounded-healer).....my e mail address: wacalice@aol.com....love to hear from you again; got other stuff to tell you, but don't want to run out of pages here, on the forum, LOL!

Emerging
09-07-2004, 06:16 PM
Those b******s used us to give themselves a bigger profile.

Zac, you have that right!!! What ever happened to "he would be greatest among you ... let him be your servant." :rolleyes:

Hang in there - you are doing good imho. :)

Jerry
09-11-2004, 12:25 PM
At the time of the Biblical Prophets,,,They could be,and many were "Stoned to Death" and further many were not thought of as "Prophets" until 5,6,7,8 hundred years later when their Prophisies came to pass ,"Pslam22" for example...Back then,to begin an utterance with "So sayeth the Lord" was quite something,,,,not to be taken lightly....If the sentance of "Stoning"was common in our society of today,,,,,I wadger a lot of these "Modern Day Prophets" would keep their "Yap" shut!!!!!! :eek: :D :rolleyes:
Love Jerry