Verbal Abuse and Shame

[Voyager]

I could use some input on a situation. My wife and I have recently had a major source of contention, which is what I would categorize as her being verbally abusive to our 10-year-old daughter. Lately it has been a very big problem that has come between us. Let me give you an example.

Today was a very good day until the evening. Everything went fine. My wife and I went through our normal day without any arguing. We were cordial toward each other as usual. Our daughters (6 and 10) went to the daycare for a few hours (we take them there three times a week in the summer for my wife to get a break). When the girls got home, we all went about our leisurely night-time activities.

Around 8:30pm or so, I asked the girls to play a game on the computer. We played "Life" for about an hour, and my 10-year-old asked if she could make some popcorn. I said yes, and she went upstairs. I heard my wife start verbally ripping into her saying that it was too late for popcorn. My daughter said calmly, "Well, Dad said I could." My wife replied with a loud, angry tone, "I don't care what your Dad said, I told you......blah, blah, blah....". This went on for about five minutes, and I yelled upstairs, "Hey, how about a little affection and instruction? If she's doing something wrong, put your arm around her and show her the correct way." My wife continued to rip into my daughter in a very angry and shaming tone, so I went upstairs to try to intervene.

As usual, when I stepped into the situation, I successfully diverted my wife's anger away from my daughter and onto me (which I would rather have on me than on her). She started ripping into me verbally with anger and shaming, and then she said that she would never be good enough for me and that our marriage wouldn't last. Then my 10-year-old asked if we were going to get divorced, and I said "No honey, your mom just needs to be less angry and more instructional and understanding."

I went downstairs and finished the game with the girls and we ate our popcorn. I tucked them both in and talked with my 10-year-old for our usual 20-minute bedtime chat. Then I went into our bedroom to find my wife sulking in bed about our argument. I asked her about it, and immediately she started saying that she would never be good enough for me and that all I do is find fault with her. I tried to give her an analogy by asking her if she would intervene if I came into a room and started beating the girls for no reason while they were all watching TV together. She said that would be different. I said, "No, it wouldn't be any different. Verbal abuse is as bad as physical abuse." Then she started denying that she had even used any verbal abuse.

Whenever I confront her about this, she tells me that I have my own opinion and it is wrong. She says there is no verbal abuse. I tried to explain to her that the day had been going just fine until now, and I was trying to give the girls some love and affection before bedtime because we hadn't spent much time together. I said that I thought it was an unhealthy clash for our 10-year-old to go from enjoying the love and affection from her dad in one room to getting verbally abused and shamed by her mother in the next room. I told her that I wouldn't have had any reason to intervene unless she had been verbally abusive. She just kept denying it, and said that all I do is find fault with her. I told her that I love everything about her but the verbal abuse. She still denied it.

I don't know what to do. This very issue is threatening our marriage. We are going into the years when our girls will become teens, and they need a stable family at home. We are all the girls have. They don't have any aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents (except my mom), etc. This kind of division between us is very unhealthy for them.

My wife and her mom do not have a relationship. Her mom was married five times and always put her husbands first before her kids. I believe that my wife was the scapegoat of her family, and her mom used a lot of shame on her. This is probably the root of the problem, but how do I get her to see it and deal with it before it wrecks our family? I know that my 10-year-old is affected by it, because her and my wife do not have an affectionate relationship at all - it's always conflict 90% of the time. It seems like she is becoming the scapegoat to my wife that she became to her mom, and she doesn't even see it happening.

My wife is a perfectionist. Our house looks like a museum. Nothing is ever out of place, because the moment it is, she puts it back in place. I often worry that she's not allowing the kids to be kids because they cannot even leave their toys out without getting yelled at and shamed by her. No one is capable of cleaning or picking things up to meet her standards, so by default she does it all herself - and she doesn't ask for or want any help.

My wife doesn't work outside the home, and we are very well-off. She even gets a break three times a week from the kids in the summer because I pay for a very good daycare that treats them very well. So, it's not like we have any financial problems, issues of being over-worked, or being stressed-out due to too much child care, etc. However, I realize that none of these material things can change how we feel about ourselves on the inside.

I love my wife deeply. I just cannot get her to see what she is doing, and that makes me very frustrated. She makes it like I am making all of this up, and she blames it on me when I complain about it. I become the problem for exposing the problem! Then she gets into this pity-party and says that she will never be good enough for me, and that we may as well divorce and get it over with. I ask her why she would think that I just imagined the verbal abuse, and she repeatedly says that it's just my opinion.

I would appreciate any input that you might have. Sorry I haven't posted much lately. We were out of town for about a week.

:cool:

[Voyager]

P.S. - I confronted my wife about this issue about a week or so ago. I told her that her verbal abuse and anger against our 10-year-old daughter was threatening our marriage, and that our relationship was becoming very un-enjoyable to me because of it. For about a week she seemed to be much less-angry and more affectionate, then tonight she reverted back to the verbal abuse again.

Also, my wife probably does have a lot of reason to be angry inside. Her mom and dad divorced when she was a 10-year-old, and after that her dad was accused and convicted of being a pedophile with his new wife's son. My wife said that her dad had fondled her when she was a teen once when he was drunk, but that it never went any further than that. She denies that this had any real impact on her.

Anyway, that's the rest of the story.

:(

[Blake]

Verbal abuse is WORSE than physical abuse..physical scars can heal quickly but emotional abuse is harder to heal. I would strongly suggest you see a marriage couselor or a psychologist who can help you first and foremost before your wife. If she isnt ready to be helped, you need to learn to set down bopundaries and take your stance as the man of teh house in a way that isnt domineering but also being in leadership.

It also may be good to see if your daughter wants to talk to someone...if you were to set limits in the house, it may (with teh help of a propfessioanl) spark sometyhing in your wife that unless the situation changes, you will take drastic steps to protect your daughter. I strongly recommend seeing someone ASAP as I know that you dont want to play your wife as the villain to your daughter, which will create an unhealthy attachment to you from her, she needs to see your wife as safe as well. and as a MoTHER, which from what it sounds, your daughter may not feel very safe with her at present..I think that the only soloution is to see someone and not think that nly prayer will help...it can be a Christyian counselor or a non Christian, but someone qualified to practice as a psychologist, with teh correct trianing and not some two bit jonny counselor from a church who thinks they understand this situation cos they had a course....this is a very difficult situation

your wifes background is VERY VERY broken, and uinless she has therapy and healing, she will continie to nbehave like this..she needs help and a good amount of time in counselling, with prayer ministry..perhpas you could suggest you both go to counselling together..you show her you wont abandon her like her dad did,. and will walk through this with her, anmd it also shpws your daughter that even in the WORST of situations, marriages can eb made to work and there is ALWAYS a solution, if people are willing. God can use this situation to help you , yor wife and your daughter..there is ALWAYS hope, if people are prepared to enter into the right steps to get healing. its a totally solvable and rectifiable situation..I am convinced

I hope this helps...but I do thin it would be great if you take the initiative and see someone for yourself first.

Hoper this helps

Congrats on being a real man and adressing the situation and not denying it, this takes SUCH courage!!!!

Blake

[Jerry]

I don't know what to do. This very issue is threatening our marriage. We are going into the years when our girls will become teens, and they need a stable family at home. We are all the girls have. They don't have any aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents (except my mom), etc. This kind of division between us is very unhealthy for them.



My wife is a perfectionist. Our house looks like a museum. Nothing is ever out of place, because the moment it is, she puts it back in place. I often worry that she's not allowing the kids to be kids because they cannot even leave their toys out without getting yelled at and shamed by her. No one is capable of cleaning or picking things up to meet her standards, so by default she does it all herself - and she doesn't ask for or want any help.


Dear Voyager,,,,
I suspect,that this is a learned behavior and am assuming this behavior is fairly recent.Your daughters,being 6 & 10 are likely,through no fault of their own, the trigger.Your wifes mother probably treeted her the same way.I bet your "mother-in-laws" house is like a museum too.See the pattern ?????? It all has to do with her memory of a significant breakup that her mother experenced.Probably your mother-in-law was married to a perfectionist when your wife was the same age as your daughters.In her young mind she viewed the failure of the marriage as her mothers fault,because at the time,she did not have the mental machienery to realize that no one can live up to the expectations of a perfectionist.So now your daughters now reaching the same age she was,have triggered an old tape that says,"Be Perfect or Voyager will leave me!".I am sure she is not aware of this Dynamic of her personality.So,,,,,try to avoid the "You" messages when you can and use "I" messages.Also remember, "Memory"viewed from today is history,and "Memory" viewed from "History"= Behavior ;) .Finally don't forget,,,,,,,,,although she may be using a faulty "Frame of Reference" this behavior is ,I believe,an expression of love for you,try not to step on the love while trying to change the behavior ;)
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

My wife said that her dad had fondled her when she was a teen once when he was drunk, but that it never went any further than that. She denies that this had any real impact on her.

Anyway, that's the rest of the story.

:(
Dear Voyager,,,,
You posted this while I was composing my post.I don't think that your wife is lieing when she says that that moment of abuse "Had no impact" I believe that she believes that........I just don't "Buy It" for a "New York Minute". It may be that she gets triggered when you are alone with the girls.Trust me,she isn't aware of it,triggers in behavior never explain themselves.We have to work them through to figure them out .
Love Jerry

[Janice]

Take what works and leave the rest.

One thing about this forum...we always hear only 1 side of the story. :rolleyes:

Anyway, it depends what one considers verbal abuse & shame. I, for one, don't consider yelling at my children while they were gowing up abusing them.

If they did something wrong, I spanked them (sometimes with the wooden spoon), grounded them, punished them and screamed at them.

Yes, we would talk about it afterwards and I made sure they understood what they did wrong.

One thing my husband and I never did was "butt in". If he was correcting them and I didn't approve of his approach, we would discuss it later when the children weren't present and visa-versa.

Personally, I can't stand todays "Dr. Phil" approach to raising children. I think never spanking your child is rediculous!!! Sometimes that's the only way to get your point across.

My children are now grown. My daughter, 26, has become a beautiful woman, and a wonderful wife an mother. She is a Christian and continually stives to live her life according to the Word.

My son, 23, is the same way.

Our children respect other people and themselves. Something you see very little of in todays children and for that..I blame the parents.

Just my opinion.

[Theodora]

My heart goes out to all of you....and yes....I can see that this could have potential for some really major problems ahead. What to "do"???? Not sure....but I thought I'd give you a bit of a "woman's perspective" here, since it happened that your first responses were all from guys here.

Is it possible that your wife's anger at your daughter and action to control her about what seemed like a REALLY trivial thing...e.g. the popcorn...came out of JEALOUSY of your good interaction with your daughters? It's not that you were doing anything "wrong"....which probably made it worse for her in the aftermath of the "event"...but that you WERE able to enjoy some "quality time" with your daughters, while she has not been able to do this.

From what you've described of her family life, it seems that she no more had a good pattern for "functional" family relationships than you have had. The difference in outward behavior is that you have been conscious about where things have gone wrong and have tried your best to rectify that in your family.

A suggestion for you, however, is that you DO use more "I" messages and...as much as possible...do NOT "confront" your wife in your children's presence. If I were in her place, there would be additional anger at you because of being treated a bit like a child---especially since you then further "explained" your wife's behavior to them. From my point of view....and do "take what works"....it seems to me that, sooner or later, this kind of thing can backfire, since it kind of further undermines what respect your children have for your WIFE'S "authority," thereby making it more "necessary" for her to try to "control" their behavior by her yelling and verbal abuse.

???

NO idea here.....and it's really early in the day here for me to be speculating on such complicated matters, but I was really concerned for ALL of you when I read your post.

"Family systems" are COMPLICATED and it's really hard to sort out what's what and how to approach making things better. While it may seem "evident" that your wife's behavior is what needs "fixing," it may be that if you were to seek out help for yourself in how to handle things, that your MODEL of working on yourself might be a better way of addressing "issues" than in the direct route of insisting that your WIFE implement change. Yes....she's the one who's yelling and abusive...but there can be more than one way to approach WHY these things are happening.

It occurs to me that in addition to having the "time off" from the children, perhaps what might help is a "Time WITH" you alone as her spouse....reconnecting to whatever common interests brought you together in the first place...going and having FUN...as well as some possible activities with each daughter alone as fun things....giving you all a different basis for connection. Sometimes I think a parent fears showing that they CAN have fun because of thinking that jeopardizes their role as disciplinarian....BUT....if the interaction is based solely on the fear of the child for what may happen, then sooner or later, that relationship AND the parent's ability to "control" is going to break down anyway...or so I think!

????

Again..."take what works and leave the rest."

I think it's a very healthy sign that you were able to post about this and ask for some input. I KNOW how hard you're trying to do what's right for all of you and I really commend you for that.

May you all know peace in this day. ... and find something to renew your hope and joy!!!

Blessings to you and yours!

Theodora

P.S. An additional thought about your wife's situation and that is that, particularly since she's not working outside the home and has her entire focus on the house and the family, that that contributes to getting things out of focus...I THINK! What were her interests before marriage? What might she be interested in now as a way to nurture herself in activities which DON'T include how "good" a mother she is? (As a mom, I can tell you that that is a VERY tricky thing to handle. Because of my chronic illness, I too was a stay-at-home mom and I can testify to how HARD it is to maintain self-esteem when your best efforts at parenting don't seem to be yielding the kind of family life you had hoped for! For EVERYONE'S sake, you really NEED some "outside interests!") Check the YWCA, for example, for some possible programs which might stimulate intellectual interests...or do you have an adult-ed outreach program near you? The public libraries frequently have book discussion groups which you might enjoy doing together or??? Just throwing out a few ideas here for some places which helped me get through some of my doldrums as a parent with thoughts of "Is that all there is, Alfie?"

Hang in there!!! "There's more than one way to skin a cat!"

--



I could use some input on a situation. My wife and I have recently had a major source of contention, which is what I would categorize as her being verbally abusive to our 10-year-old daughter. Lately it has been a very big problem that has come between us. (snip)

[Hesed]

Voyager:

I was verbally abused by my mother and my mother was the only child of a woman who I can only describe as a ***** on wheels. If there was ever reason to believe in demons, my grand-mother was that reason. I know my mother loved me as a kid and I know she loves me now. She is still verbally abusive to me at times.

So that said...can I offer you a theory? I know I'm playing amateur psychologist which is always dangerous. But you seem like a really sensible poster from what I can tell, so I'm trusting you'll know if my theory is all wet.

It sounds to me like your wife didn't want to clean up the kitchen the other night after your daughter made the popcorn. I'm guessing from her background that: a) she doesn't know how to say no and b) as a perfectionist, she'd rather kill herself than leave the kitchen dirty and clean up in the morning.

As someone who has worked hard on my own poor self-esteem in the past, I've needed "objective" reasons to stick to my view. One "objective" reason would be that "it's too late". When that didn't work ("Dad said I could"), we move to "objective reason" number two: "You are a slob. You never help me. You are always making work for me. You're ungrateful" (all guesses on my part).

I believe that the current thinking in family psychology is that it is the "system" (the way everyone interacts together) that is wrong and not just simply one person. It seems to me that - possibly rightly - your wife got "named" as "the bad one" the other night. That's a role she will have been used to if she was the scapegoat in her family, but I think that telling her (accurately) that she was verbally abusive probably is just going to make her deny it more because she's feeling shamed.

If it's truly destroying your marriage, my honest guess is that you might want to find a professional and work together as a couple, and possibly as a family, to agree how to interact with each other and with the kids. I don't think it's simply a matter of saying "this is verbal abuse and it's wrong, so stop it". My guess is that your wife hasn't had a lot of exposure to good family interaction and probably doesn't even know what it looks like. She won't know how to stop being a perfectionist and she won't know how to stop being verbally abusive; and she may end up feeling like she's being crushed in the bargain.

Again, this is me making huge assumptions. I apologise if I'm all wet and throw out what doesn't apply. Good luck and well done for being a loving and concerned father and husband.

[Voyager]

I deeply appreciate everything that all of you have posted so far, and thanks for taking the time out to do it. There are some really good suggestions here.

I agree with a few of you that butting in while my wife is "disciplining" the girls is not healthy. But what is worse? Letting the verbal abuse continue? It seems that I am in a catch-22 regarding this. I wish to God that I didn't feel the need to butt in, but when one of my kids is getting an undeserved tongue lashing - from my wife or anyone else - I feel the need to shield them from it if at all possible.

My wife thinks that because of my dysfunctional upbringing I just don't like anger at all. I don't believe that is true. There is a place for anger when someone wrongs you. What I have a problem with is using a mix of anger and shame on a kid instead of instruction and guidance. I realize that a lot of parents rule their kids with anger and shame, but I don't want that to happen in my home. Kids don't rebel against love, affection, and understanding - they rebel against anger and shame.

Anyway, we may need to get a professional involved before any of this can be worked out. Today there is a cloud over the house because of the big fallout last night. I get frustrated that this happens when all I was doing was complaining about using anger and shame on my daughter. I could understand being in the "doghouse" if I had been out all night drinking, struck one of my daughters, or called my wife a name - but all I did was try to keep her from verbally abusing our daughter. For that I am being punished.

:(

[Satscout]

I could understand being in the "doghouse" if I had been out all night drinking, struck one of my daughters, or called my wife a name - but all I did was try to keep her from verbally abusing our daughter. For that I am being punished.

:(

I hate to say "join the club"...

Every time my husband goes through one of his tirades against Andrew (which almost routinely involve calling him a baby or little, when he prefers to be called a BIG boy - at age 5!) and devolve into name calling and other forms of torture, I usually have to wait until the dust begins to settle and then work on the process of calming him down. Andrew, that is. :( Usually it involves reading a story and just talking to him, and de-triggering when he starts spiraling emotionally again. I can't do anything effective about my husband's behavior, but I can help Andrew pick up the pieces.

(((((Voyager))))) Sounds like your road is almost harder, and certainly as complicated.

[Voyager]

P.S. - We have tried to find a counselor or therapist at least four times. Each time we have gone in, I end up talking most of the time explaining what I think our problems are, and my wife says very little or nothing (she is a very closed-off person emotionally, and I am very open). We usually have tried at least two sessions, and by the end of the second or third session I realize that the therapist hasn't made any suggestions or recommendations at all - they just listened! Heck, I can post things on this forum for free and get people to listen. When I pay a therapist $120.00 an hour, I expect them to deliver some goods. I've gotten more good advice from the above replies to my posts than I ever received from these "licensed" counselors.

My last attempt was with a lady who specializes in child behavior therapy. Since my 10-year-old daughter has shown some aggressive and oppositional behavior (which has caused her to lose friends), I felt the need to try to get her some help. I took her in to see this lady, and the woman talked to me first. She seemed to be gathering information on my daughter in an attempt to confront her with all of her "flaws". When I saw this happening, I started to back off from listing all of her "faults" and began to tell the lady the reason that I came to her - to get my daughter some help on how to socialize without losing friends. The lady didn't seem to pick up on it, and when she asked my daughter to come in, she started trying to "unload" on her. My daughter looked at me like "Who is this kook?" I had to agree with her, the lady was really whacked-out. You would have had to see it to believe it, I mean it was WEIRD!

Needless to say, we just haven't found the right therapist. How do you know who to choose? I open up the yellow pages in the phonebook, and there are hundreds of therapists! It's like "eenie-meanie-minie-mo", which of these counselors should I trust my family's mental health to?

:confused:

[Michael]

What I have a problem with is using a mix of anger and shame on a kid instead of instruction and guidance. I realize that a lot of parents rule their kids with anger and shame

As a recovering rageaholic, I have some thoughts on anger in parenting. In fact, I started writing a paper on the subject of anger. Included in it is a bit about my growth away from an angry parenting style. The draft of the paper isn't even finished, but I'll post it below anyway.

In His Grace,

Michael

Anger (very early draft/incomplete)

INTRODUCTION

Most of my life I have been angry. Sometimes that anger was expressed in rage toward those closest to me. Other times my anger was silent, a smoldering resentment which came out only in "safe" subversive ways. The truth is that anger touched every area of my life. If it wasn’t anger directed at others, it was anger focused on myself.

I knew that sometimes I would become agitated about policies at work, or become incensed about certain political, social, or religious issues. But usually there was no person or institution toward which I consciously, continually directed my anger, so I didn’t think of myself as an angry person. But those around me did. One employer warned me that my coworkers had complained about my harsh negativity and cynicism. My family was very clear that I was unpleasant to be around because of my temper.

As I began to recognize and face my character defects, it soon became clear to me that I was intensely angry. My life was filled with resentment. I harbored bitterness toward my my parents and many other people in my life. And I had a whole lot of resentment toward God. The more I became able to see this, the more overwhelmed I felt. I saw no way of stopping my anger. Of course this made me angrier. But I cried out to God anyway. And He heard and eventually responded.

My life is no longer dominated by anger. I still get angry more easily than I would like, but rage is far less frequent, and is shorter in duration. The bitterness I felt toward my parents for most of my life has been healed. The resentment I had toward God is largely replaced by gratitude. I still have moments where I slide back into old thought patterns, but those are small skirmishes. The battle has been won because God did the fighting.

I’d like to share some of the things I’ve learned in this process of wrestling with the issue of anger in my life. What I present is a compilation of bits of wisdom picked up from here and there, most often from others farther down the path than I.

THE BENEFITS OF ANGER

I used to view anger as an enemy in my life. Now I can view anger in my life as a series of opportunities. Anger is one of the most valuable tools in my life for honest self-examination. Anger helps me see hidden parts of myself. It can expose potential personal landmines, and it reveals what I truly believe about life. For the things which make me angry show my expectations of myself, of God, and of everyone and everything else in my world.

DEFINITION

What is anger? There are many definitions, but the one that I find the most useful for me is this: Anger is my emotional/physical response of displeasure to the violation of my expectations as to how the world should be.

A secondary cause of anger is my fear or concern about losing control over something important to me.

As I look at every instance of anger in my life, as I consider the anger of those around me, and even as I look at the anger of God depicted in scripture, that definition seems to work. If I am driving down the road going at the same speed as the rest of the traffic, and a driver speeds up behind me and tailgates me, it is likely that I will become angry.

There are several expectation which are being violated. I feel that I should be able to drive the same speed as those around me without being pressured to drive faster. I fear the loss of my ability to control my safety (marginal at best anyway). At a more primal level, I may feel that the driver behind me is indicating that he feels I am doing something wrong in choosing to drive the speed I am driving.

When Jesus entered the temple courtyard and found it filled with purveyors of merchandise, he became angry. His expectation was that His Father’s house, and by extension, His Father, would be treated with reverence. His concern was the God’s people would treat God with disrespect.

LEVELS OF ANGER

Anger is like fire. Flames often start with a just small spark. But they can quickly become dangerous, erupting into a major conflagration without warning. Fire requires three things: heat, fuel, and oxygen. If you remove one of those elements the fire will die.

Anger also requires three elements: violated expecations, a target of anger, and the will to remain angry. Anger can flare from irritation to rage seemingly without warning. But, just as with fire, if you remove one of the three elements, the fire will die.

We often equate anger with rage or infuriation. But there’s more than one level of anger. Borrowing from the analogy of fire again, there are three degrees of anger.

First degree anger can be described with words like annoyance, frustration, dislike, impatience, displeasure, and irritation. What may seem to a mild response to a person or situation is a spark that indicates that my expectations have been violated. What may seem like a simple annoyance for weeks may build up and explode if undetected. It may come out in another context, or it may express itself indirectly if I am not aware of the source of my anger.

If I am aware of my feelings and the way I interact with others I may notice these emotions. Awareness is the first key to dealing with anger. The sooner I am able to recognize and deal with the emotions, the better chance I have of preventing damage.

Second degree anger is made up of emotions like aggravation, animosity, enmity, exasperation, indignation, rankling, resentment, vexation, and a slow burn. Once aware of these emotions, I have a choice to escalate or de-escalate the feelings. I’ll discuss how to do that later.

Third degree anger consists of fury, hatred, outrage, tantrums, storms, and rage. At this stage it is difficult to make rational decisions. But it is possible to recover self-control, make responsible decisions, and chose to de-escalate. I may not be able to stop the other person from continuing to be angry, but that’s not my responsibility.

STRATEGIES FOR DEALING WITH ANGER

The keys to managing anger are awareness, honesty, objectivity, and making choices.

I found that when I first began dealing with my anger all I could do was look at things in the aftermath of my wrath. But I can only start where I am. So I prayed and then looked at what had triggered my anger. I considered which of my expectations had been violated. I asked myself if expectations were realistic or not. If they were, I then had to determine whether or not the relationship was more important than my expectations. After looking at these things, I went and made amends, accepting responsibility for allowing myself to overreact and yell at others. I avoided blaming the other person(s) for "making me angry". I did not use the time to continue the argument or to prove my point. I only dealt with my behavior.

Then I began to be able to realize that I was out-of-control in the midst of an argument. I then had to stop for a minute and quickly ask myself a number of questions:

- what am I doing?

- how do I feel right now?

- who or what am I really angry at?

- what am I thinking?

- what am I saying?

- how am I saying it?

- how are people responding?

- am I out-of-control?

- which of my expectations have been violated?

- is this a realistic expectation?

- what’s really at stake here?

- what am I trying to control?

- what am I afraid of losing?

- am I willing to give up "winning" here?

- can I ask God into this situation?

- do I need to make amends?

I don’t actually stop and pull a written checklist out of my pocket, but I had gotten used to asking these questions in the aftermath, so they were familiar to me. Sometimes it only took one or two of the questions to drain all the energy our of my anger.

The next stage was when I saw that an argument was heading into meltdown status. I asked myself, "What is the truth here?" which sums up many of the previous questions. When I have adopted this attitude at this stage I have been able to calm the situation, at least on my part. Often the other participant escalated to rage, but after a while grew frustrated at the lack of hostile response.

After a while I could see how mere irritation with a person or situation risked leading to greater levels of anger. I asked myself if my expectation was realistic, whether or not I had the right to that expectation, and whether or not I had any control over the situation. Often the serenity prayer was an appropriate response.

DEALING WITH UNDERLYING CAUSES .... to be continued

[newpal]

Wow...Unfortunately, I see a lot of similarities in what you are dealing with and what I have dealt with whom is now my x-wife as of June 13, 2005.

My question is how long have you and your wife been at odds? Be honest with yourself on this one. If you stay in an ongoing contentious mode, and the verbal abuse stays constant then I would recommend that you seriously consider separating. If I had done his early on I maybe could have saved the marriage and family.

You are being affected by the abuse in ways you can't see, and my guess is you will do what I did, and that is you will think that your love for your wife is best manifested by staying next to her and trying to be the agent of change - don't be so fooled. You cannot change her. She has to be awakened and the the first step might be to leave her if it doesn't stop.

I also found that I was not the person to correct my wife regardless of how right I may have been in my assessments. Someone outside the home who your wife trust is the only kind of person I believe she would accept constructive criticism from.

I think this is critical. The reason is I found that no matter how hard I tried to get her to stop with the verbal abuse it did no good. My wife's father committed adultery with her mom's best friend. Further, my wife was used to set the affairs up by her father handing her a cigarette and telling her to take it across the street to give to the mistress as the signal for a rendevous.

Question: You think my wife had a had a hard time trusting men? You bet she did so anything I tried to tell her went in one ear and out the other.

Your wife came from constant change in the men her mother married. My guess is she doesn't know who to trust, and I would imagine that her shame based verbal abuse is only reflective the shame she carries within herself as a result of the dysfunctional nature of her upbringing.

Bottom line is if this is an ongoing problem then it is much more serious than you can see by virtue of the fact that you are there and continue to put up with it. If a normal person came in as an outsider and witnessed the situation my guess is they would recommend an immediate separation. A separation is not a divorce, and it lets the other person know how serious you are that the abuse stops and that you are willing to do whatever it takes to see that it does.

If you leave her it will trigger the pain from her upbringing so be ready for that, and also be ready for manipulation to keep you from going, or either after you leave. This will not be an easy thing. I think you are being a co-dependent to the abuse without knowing it.

If you are not careful in time the tables can be turned on you completely because you may very well become the blame for all her problems, and with her being at home around the kids all the time she can easily become the 'mother of the year' all of a sudden to take the attention away from her and place the blame on you. That is exactly what happened in my marriage.

Another mistake is that I didn't keep records of the abuse. You need to write down the date and times the abuse occurs and be specific on the details. I would also use a recorder to record whatever you can. That's not being sneaky, that's being protective. I didn't do so and when the tables had been turned and my kids taken away from me I would call angry at what had been done to me and my phone calls were recorded and used to extort me.

Just understand this, Voyager, you are dealing with a situation that is far more serious than you can imagine and I would strongly suggest that you take it seriously. Be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove.

You also need outside counsel, and I would keep that to yourself.

Finally, my last counsel would be to do you level best to never try and correct her -at all. She is NOT going to listen to you. Deep down she knows what she is doing, however, she doesn't know how serious the damage is. You might also want to consider a real live support group not just what you have here online. Having real live people to lean on is critical. Makes no difference whether it is Christian or secular because when it comes to abuse the census is pretty much the same.

Good book you might want to consider, "Inside Out", by Larry Crabb. Will help you to understand your wife and yourself as well. Gotta go...hope this helps.

[Voyager]

I fear leaving my wife, mainly because then my kids would be subjected to her rages without my protection.

:(

[Voyager]

Great article Michael! I appreciate it very much.

:cool:

[Hesed]

I fear leaving my wife, mainly because then my kids would be subjected to her rages without my protection.

:(

:(

[I'm thinking that one of the other NGs I'm on has little candle emoticons and I wish I had one now. I'd give hugs if I were sure it was OK. I'm not sure of the protocol here.)

[newpal]

I fear leaving my wife, mainly because then my kids would be subjected to her rages without my protection.

:(

It's going on now with your 'protection.' It won't be any worse if you leave. Set up visitation to stay on top of it. Listen, I know the fear you are experiencing. However, I think what you should really fear is what is going to happen if you don't take some very firm steps.

Yea, all hell is probably going to break loose is one form or another. Let it. This kind of abuse is severely damaging, and if nothing else get intervention - immediately. Read up on Van Vonderen's intervention if need be, and take whatever steps are necessary to bring this to a head. Your helping EVERYONE by doing so.

Heck, I'm not saying anything that Dr. Phil, Jeff VanVonderan, or any real 'on top of it' counselor would tell you. One thing is certain - you need change, and it is not going to happen living under the fear of what might happen if you do take serious action.

(Also, I went the counselor route like you - waste of time and money. They didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. If you like to read, just buy good books from well respected counselors, and of course, VanVonderan's.)

Really do have to go...be back later today.

[Voyager]

I really have no intentions on leaving my wife. She and I are best friends, and this area of disagreement is about the only thing we really disagree on - but to me it's a big one. She just doesn't see her angry, shaming, verbal assaults on our 10-year-old daughter for what they are - abuse.

That said, I don't know what to do about this. I don't think that she believes me when I tell her it is abusive. She seems to take it seriously that something is affecting the stability of our marriage, but she doesn't see the need to do anything about it.

When I was growing up, I didn't have anyone continually yelling at me in an angry, shaming tone. So I don't see this as normal behavior for a parent. When I hear this being done to my child, it makes me cringe on the inside and my instinctive reaction is to try to stop it. My wife, on the other hand, did receive this kind of treatment from her mother, so to her it probably seems like normal parental behavior. But it will be no less damaging to our daughter than it was to my wife, who doesn't want anything to do with her mother.

If there would have been love and affection instead of anger and shaming in the mother/daughter relationship between my wife and her mother, I'm sure there would still be a bond between them - but there isn't.

:cool:

[DLL]

i didnt read all the posts, so i dont know if this has already been mentioned, but.....
maybe your wife is angry and/or jealous at the relayionship and quality time you spend with your daughters. do you have the same quality time with her? do you play games or make popcorn JUST for her , w/o anyone else around? i know i would get very upset at my kids if daddy said they could do ANYTHING past dinner, except get ready for bed. that was MY time and i felt like i wasnt worth it if i didnt get the same time and affection that the kids had had all day. (we have 4).
so we would allott a certain amount of time for each but it all had to be early, so then i could have the time in the evening to work on our relationship or just be quiet before either one of us were too tired.
just a thought, and like i said , i didnt read everyones response, so maybe this was already mentioned.

[Blake]

With all that has been said, i used to be a singing teacher and i can tell you that even though I swore I wuld never be a belittling teacher, i ahve lost my rag quite a few times with students.

Is it possible..and i am asking you to just CONSIDER..that maybe you could be overcompensating for your kids in a way you dont see, and you and your wife are at extremes in this..perhaps soemtime alone and you pray together about this would be good..what do you think?

[Michael]

When I was growing up, I didn't have anyone continually yelling at me in an angry, shaming tone. So I don't see this as normal behavior for a parent. When I hear this being done to my child, it makes me cringe on the inside and my instinctive reaction is to try to stop it. My wife, on the other hand, did receive this kind of treatment from her mother, so to her it probably seems like normal parental behavior. But it will be no less damaging to our daughter than it was to my wife, who doesn't want anything to do with her mother.

If there would have been love and affection instead of anger and shaming in the mother/daughter relationship between my wife and her mother, I'm sure there would still be a bond between them - but there isn't.

I was raised in a home like your wife's. My mom was a master manipulator and a perfectionist. I really don't recall her yelling all that much, but I know that it was there.

In part because of the way I was raised, I have made many, many mistakes in raising my children because of my unrealistic expectations and my temper. I felt incredible guilt about the "damage" I had inflicted on my children.

My sons were about 9 and 12 when I first started in recovery. While it is true that my children will probably have issues to deal with as they mature (now ages 15 and 18), it is incredible how resilient children can be. I remember asking a speaker at a conference about this subject. I told him of my fear that I had terribly damaged the psyches of my children. As a psychologist, he had treated hundreds of patients who came from dysfunctional homes. Yet, he didn't seem too concerned about my boys. He just said, continue working your program, and strive for consistency in the way you treat them. They will heal.

Another thing that I have found is that although my wife was raised in a loving environment, she ended up yelling at my children. She is one of the calmest, most patient people I know (she'd have to be to stay married to me). But children do push the best parents over the edge at times. And, we all say stupid things when we lose our temper.

But if the child has enough stability in the home, and there is a consistent message that they are loved, no matter what, they can deal with occasional blow ups.

Of course, that's different than constantly shaming a child and making them feel that there is something inherently wrong with them. I know what it feels like to grow up like that.

But perhaps things are not as dire as it sounds at your house. Of course, I don't know. Are you saying that a parent should never raise their voice at a child? I am not clear on what you mean when you say, "in a shaming tone". Are the words inherently shaming, or is it that you have a problem with the decibel level? Or is there sarcasm or derision in the way things are said. If that's the case, the volume may not be the most important issue. My mom inflicted far deeper wounds with her matter of fact statements than she did with her yelling.

I don't believe yelling is inherently abusive. Throughout my life I have seldom seen a family where yelling does not happen at some point. Anger expressed loudly seems to be a normal human response in relationship. I think it is probably very unhealthy if there is never any yelling. If I am reading scripture correctly, Christ yelled when he was angry too.

Perhaps I am reacting out of guilt here. I do not yell as frequently as I once did. And even when I do, it stops almost immediately. It is the cutting comments that are delivered in a normal speaking voice that can most deeply wound my sons. Unfortunately, they have become adept at hurling back similar statements, aimed at my weakest spots. Fortunately, we are also able to quickly de-escalate, apologize and talk things through.

I don't know where the stereotypes of heritage come into play. Most of my ancestors came from Ireland. Not that Irishmen are thought to be hotheads or anything . . . :)

I applaud your efforts to see that your children are raised in a non-shaming environment. Perhaps I am a little less concerned because it seems so much better than the environment in which I was raised, and appears to be noticeably better than my children's first years. But you are there on the scene. I am not. Forgive me if I have stepped where I should not have trod.

By the way, God has healed my relationship with my parents. It was a wonderful, very welcome miracle. I can accept the flawed job they did in raising me. They did the best that they were capable of doing, considering how broken they were. And, in spite of the fact that they were inconsistent and sometimes very ineffective at showing it, I know that they loved me then and love me now. It is still surprising to me that I can tell my mom that I love her.

May God bring greater peace and unity to your household. May He bring a greater gentleness to your wife's heart and tongue. May He continue to draw the two of you together in your love for Him. May your children grow to be adults who know, accept, and appreciate the love that both of you have for them. May they also know, accept, and cherish the love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. AMEN

In His Grace,

Michael

[jjc9497]

Voyager,

Your wife reminds me of me. My insecurity, perfectionism, anger, etc. stemmed from living with a rageaholic father and experiencing sexual abuse as a child. Your wife sounds like she is experiencing the classic symptoms of being abused. I would recommend the following (take what works and ignore the rest).

1) If you separate over this issue YOU keep the kids. You can set a boundary that she must go to counseling or she must leave. Assure her you are not divorcing or ending the marriage, you just need her to see the seriousness of what she is doing. My husband had to threaten to leave me to get me into counseling. It is not abandoning her, it is tough love.

2) Find a counselor that is experienced in dealing with sexual abuse.

3) Read [U]The Wounded Heart by Dan Allender. Of all the books I read to help me deal with my own abuse, this one was the most in depth and helpful. If you can get your wife to read it, that would be great.

4) When she says what happened didn't have an effect on her, that is most likely denial. I told myself that for 40 yrs, and yet EVERY day I could identify things I did or thought because of the abuse I suffered--but would still insist it had no affect on me. For most abuse victims, they will not break thru the denial until the pain of NOT dealing with the abuse becomes worth than living with it. That is why threatening a temporary separation unless she gets counseling may need to happen in order for her to be willing to deal with the issues.

The abuse left me feeling so bad and dirty, I had to be perfect in everything I did. I thought if I could convince other people I was good then maybe I could convince myself. That perfectionism invaded every part of my life. My husband and kids and house ALWAYS had to be perfect. This was because of the incredibly deep seated belief that I was bad, filthy, unworthy, unlovable, etc. If you do set a boundary with your wife MAKE SURE she knows you love her and will NEVER leave her. You are just setting the boundary (temp separation) to force her to get help because you love her and you need to protect your kids.

While there are a small percentage of people who experience childhood abuse who do come out of it with few if any problems, that is the rare exception (and how many of those are just still in denial???). In my opinion, your wife needs help, probably won't get it without serious pushing, and your daughters need protecting.

Thank you for being the kind of man to stand up for your children. You also sound like the kind of man who will stand by your wife as she works thru her problems. You are a good guy in a really tough situation. My heart goes out to you and your family-----but there is help and hope.

[Flo]

I'm posting this because Voyager asked that I do so. It was originally a private message to him.


Hi Voyager, it's me, Florence.

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents regarding your situation with your wife and 10 year old daughter. It troubles me that your request for input has suddenly turned to considering separation. It's hard not to turn molehills into mountains - and just as easily to minimize mountains hoping that they are just molehills. I know you love your wife and family so please don't do anything drastic unless it's absolutely necessary.

Here's what I know about females (I've had a lot of experience being one myself):

Females tend to compete (also known as being "catty"). Almost every female who has grown up with another female, be it a mother, sister, cousin, friend, etc., will experience situations in which they are petty, vindictive, overly dramatic, critical, etc. of another female. It doesn't matter that they are mother/daughter - it's just part of our nature. That's one of the reasons little girls fight with their friends and take months to - or maybe never - get over it and become friends again. Little boys fight and then 5 minutes later they are best buddies again. (Honestly, it's probably why Jane and I don't get along and why I get angry when people take her side and not mine.) At any rate, some of what your wife and daughter are experiencing might simply be this "catty" behavior that females do. Not that it's right, and not that it shouldn't be addressed, but just so you can maybe understand if that's part of what's going on in your home.

Also, your ten-year-old is the oldest, right? My husband has always expected more from our oldest son. The younger one is his "baby" and he rarely speaks a harsh word to him, but the older boy was constantly being berrated for just about everything. I didn't know what to do either, but once in a while I would just very quietly say to him, "You know, you never speak to Caleb that way and he behave alot worse the other day when . . . " or whatever fit the situation. It took some time, but eventually my husband has come to treat both boys pretty equally most of the time - even seeing and praising the ways our older son outshines his younger brother in areas where he is doing well or has a special ability or talent.

We women are very fickle. We need lots of reminders that we are special and that our man is devoted to us. No matter what. Maybe your wife needs to be reminded more regularly about the "no matter what" part. I spent several years testing my husband in subtle ways not even realizing that I was testing his devotion to me. Fortunately, he passed every test - just by sticking with me "no matter what."

Well, this has gotten long. I hope I have offered something useful.
Florence

Thanks Flo! I really appreciate this. Feel free to post it in the thread, because I think it is probably the best response I have received so far!

If you'll notice, I posted a reply that I have no intentions on leaving my wife.

[Voyager]

Everyone's replies were awesome, and I got something good out of every one of them. I deeply appreciate the time and effort that each of you took to reply to my post.

Thanks!

:cool:

[Theodora]

Everyone's replies were awesome, and I got something good out of every one of them. I deeply appreciate the time and effort that each of you took to reply to my post.

Thanks!

:cool:

I'm glad that the responses were helpful for you. I've "known" you well enough I think, to believe that you DO have the ability to sort through what rings true for your situation and to know that what has been offered HAS been out of genuine concern for all of you, even though our personal experiences and perspectives might not always "fit" what you're experiencing. From my own hyper-sensitive perspective....and not to "put my oar in" where it's not wanted, I would caution you, however, about how you receive statements such as Flo's. Basically, though I could see there could be some truth in her perspective, MY experience as a woman has NEVER allowed me to generalize ABOUT women (and men) as she has done here.

And with that....DO "take what works and leave the rest!"

Blessings to you and yours this day....and again...thanks for your post.

Theodora

--

[Flo]

I would caution you, however, about how you receive statements such as Flo's. Basically, though I could see there could be some truth in her perspective, MY experience as a woman has NEVER allowed me to generalize ABOUT women (and men) as she has done here.

Theodora

--

Hence my intentional use of the words "tend," "almost," and "might." There are exceptions to generalizations and I left room for that in my post. I'm sorry if I didn't make it more clear that these "tendencies" don't apply to EVERY female.

[Voyager]

Flo's post helped me remember that women do in fact think differently than men do. That was something that I was not taking into consideration before I read her PM. It really helped me understand that although a man might think one way about something, a woman might see it completely different. Dads and moms deal with daughters in completely different ways. Dads tend to more generous and liberal with daughters (for the most part), and mothers tend to have a "you won't get away with this just because you're a female" attitude when dealing with their daughters. (If anyone else posted something like that in their reply, I'm sorry if I missed it.)

:)

[Theodora]

Flo's post helped me remember that women do in fact think differently than men do. That was something that I was not taking into consideration before I read her PM. It really helped me understand that although a man might think one way about something, a woman might see it completely different. Dads and moms deal with daughters in completely different ways. Dads tend to more generous and liberal with daughters (for the most part), and mothers tend to have a "you won't get away with this just because you're a female" attitude when dealing with their daughters. (If anyone else posted something like that in their reply, I'm sorry if I missed it.)

:)

??? I'd still question some assumptions here, Voyager, but if you're finding "resonances" in your experience, I'm thankful that's true. From MY experience, I'm not so sure that the idea of men/women actually thinking differently...or, even QUALIFIED as "TENDING" to think differently...is true. My experience with my Dad also doesn't confirm your idea of Dads being more "generous" with their daughters; on the contrary, mine was more or less entirely focused on the needs/wants of my brothers.

Peace to you. "Keep on 'keepin' on'" as my brother-in-law would say!

Theodora

P.S. FWIW, for me, out of my experience and what I've read, what "explains" differences, and responses to situations seems more likely to come out of what we have experienced and how we have been taught---directly or indirectly--to respond to that, rather than some idea of some so-called inherent "genetic" differences between men and women. I also think that our personalities...as described by Meyers-Briggs, using Jungian psychology, are more important to how we interact than the male-female component of our make-ups as well. "Take what works....!"

[Flo]

FWIW, there has been a great deal of "brain sex research" (I have even taken a "brain sex test") - referring to whether male and female brains have inherent differeinces. This research indicates that males and females are very different due to brain chemistry. Just a few years ago this research was being taught in teacher education and recertification courses because it has a great impact on the way we teach males vs. females.

Of course, no research or position in and of itself has all of the answers, but scientifically, they can actually measure chemicals in the brain and determine how well you will remember names and faces, if you are good at parallel parking, whether or not you can follow directions (north, south, east, west) etc. All based on the chemicals that would indicate at "male" or "female" brain.

My generalities were not based solely on my own assumptions or observations, but also on science.

[Kerrin]

;) Voyager,
Every post here has an element that is useful , but each is absolutly unique too!

That's why this Forum is such a great springboard to approaching similar situations in our own lives with other's experiences and perspectives!!

I had a lotta bells go off reading these posts!!
1. My mother was an emotonal ice burg!! She hit me, was verbally abusive, and for as long as I can remember she did not want me, although, being the eldest I was "the Mother" in our family as she retreated and hid behind her "depression" and work!, or both.

Her excuses for "being the way she is": she was sexually abused as a child, her parents divorced etc... etc...

My father WAS NOT a repalcement in any way shape or form ,he was as equally abusive: and drank himself into oblivion every night while I cleaned ,washed ironed etc taking care of my brother and sister because neither one of them was emotionally or physically available for me, I "FELT" it was my job to care for them ALL!.

After dad was drunk, and we kids were in bed, I would lie in bed and wait!
I waited because I knew , the next thing I would hear was THEM fighting!
He beat her, she screamed at him, and as my brother and sister slept, I lay awake plotting ways to "rescue" my siblings by climbing out a window ,"in case he tried to kill us" ; THAT was what my tiny 9y/o brain thought......... :confused:

In an ironic twist my mother made me her "project"; at the age of 10 she told me I would be nurse! (dad says she decided that when I was 2).
She pushed me hard academically, in Sports, and at home!
I excelled in everything...........Perfectionist?? YOU bet I was!!

Dad never stepped up to the plate ,to use a "Dr Phil" phrase! I wish he had.

When Randy and I married, I REALLY learned what it meant to live with a perfectionist! Our home could never be clean enough for him; I worked full time , (went up the career ladder very fast , fulfilling my mum's dreams,), and as well we had a house cleaner once a week; who I would pay, and then clean all over again behind her!) Maybe it was his military training; he had an obsession with Amy being clean, and her nails etc...
He started yelling at Amy for spilling milk or making a mess, to the point she would scream, blue bloody murder for the slightest infringement at 1, 2 and 3 years of age.
She started copying him and changing clothing the minute there was a slight spot, she would get anxious etc... in case daddy came home and saw...
I used to "excuse " his behaviour because he was beaten as achild he watched his 9 y/o brother get electrocuted and blamed himself..........excuse after excuse!
And I did that for him, always covering for him.........the stories I could tell!! :rolleyes:

Anyway, he's gone, my mother I only just now (at 42 ), have been able to tell her this is my life now!
So ,she's vaniched , she can't control me anymore so she doesn't know how to handle me.
My dad is dying with Alzheimer's progressing rapidly, so I figure he gets out of it pretty easily.

As for Amy, the minute Randy left I took her basket of toys into the Family room, turned it upside down and said "play", she looked at me stunned, you
know "what a mess! etc.."
I also remember sitting her in her high chair with a bowl of spaghetti which she got up the wall, all over her face and clothes, the chair, and then fell asleep face first in it!
( I have a photo of that ,Hysterical!) :D
Randy would have had a nervous breakdown!
She is now 14 ,as you know, only last night at dinner, I noticed the reminants of Randy's influence as she spilled some juice! ( A frightened momentary glance at me.......I said "it's just juice Amy")
(I, Just was quiet).

No:1 Don't berate your wife in front of your kids; I have never done that despite the "person" Randy was , if I disagreed I would speak to him later, with him it got me no where, but to Amy it didn't confuse her.

No2: I always tell Amy"THIS" has been about we adults, nothing is her fault, nor should she be brought into it.
And she lets me know now if I start to go too far with information about her father, and I back off!

No3: With My mother and sister they tried to drag the 3 kids into "our" dispute, because my relationship with them has broken down, doesn't mean Amy can't have a realationship with her cousins who go to the same school...........however my family won't come to any agreement there, so again I have to keep telling Amy it's not about the kids, we are adults and it's between us!
When my niece and nephew are old enough they will know the truth, and make up their own minds.

No4 : I'm not afraid to occassionally raise my voice at Amy because ,sometimes it's the ONLY way to get her attention.
Or send her to her room etc...
She sulks; but then we talk it through.

No5: I watched my parents manipulate one another with my brother playing one off the other; he's dead now, but, it was the "mum said this but, no dad said that "game!!
Belive me it only hurts the kids!

(Amy recently told me ,She only confides in me; not even her best friend knows the things she has shared with me.........I don't know if that's good parenting, I only know I was determined NOT to be my father or mother, OR make excuses for their behaviour!)

My mother loves playing on the sympathy thing about being sexually abused , and violently abused by my dad, and having an "illness"! Well guess what, so have I !
S*** happens as some say!

It's places like here where it's safe to work it through.
And my weekly counselling sessions!
In front of Amy , I'm NOT like this.

I'm Amy's mum and the competent Nurse Manager! That's what the world sees!

AS for dad's and mum's treating their children/daughter's differently!
Nope, if that's the case it's for the wrong reasons.
I think your wife is re-acting to something, she has an unmet need and I'm no counsellor nor am I in your house to see what's really going on.
I'm not even going to suggest what her problem is, except you need to "fix" your marriage!


But I do know, the pop corn thing and what you said to your 10y/o in front of your wife was patronising to her, and dismissed her in some way.
Maybe you should have asked your daughter to leave, so you and mum could talk a minute ,and find out the real issue.
Maybe she is jealous of your time with your daughter's; still no excuse for either of you behaving in front of kids like that!

I have no idea......
You know my past!!
But, you both need to unite on this and not make excuses for her bad behaviour or your reasons for responding because of your wife's past!

It took me 14 years of abuse in my marriage to STOP excusing Randy's bad behaviuor because of his past and what had happend to him!

Sorry, take what, if any works , and leave the rest ,and all if you like.

Oprah did an interesting show recently where she talked about a whole generation off children coming through that have become the centre of their parents' universe ,at the expense of the Marriage!
Selfish kids beacause parents are "busy", Bitter, tired, angry, etc.....and most importantly don't take time to nurture their marriage!
(And keep the marriage relationship seperate from the child rearing part if that make sense)
In other words look after one another, get help if you need help!

God Bless and thanks for sharing,
I'm over my Vent I think!
Love
Kerrin ;)

FWIW: I think your wife is blessed to have the life you have described! :) (and you too)

[Kerrin]

;) Just a quick addendum: I admire that you are spending so much "crucial" time with your daughter's!
You know , from now on, how you relate to them and your wife, will define , mostly how they view male attention and future relationships!

Women who didn't have "available" father's, and father's who belittle their mothers, look for affection any way they can get it, because it ,(irrationally) equates to love , including the acceptance of being treated badly; that's what happened to me.
Kerrin ;)

[Flo]

Kerrin,
What an excellent post! :)

[Voyager]

;) Voyager,
But I do know, the pop corn thing and what you said to your 10y/o in front of your wife was patronising to her, and dismissed her in some way.
Maybe you should have asked your daughter to leave, so you and mum could talk a minute ,and find out the real issue.
I agree with you. However, things were quite volatile at the moment, and my daughter probably would have thrown a fit if I asked her to leave in that heated moment.

I admit that I do have a problem with correcting my wife in front of my daughter when my wife is raging at her. When this is happening, it's like I can do no right. I step in to try to soften the blows of my wife's anger, but then it just causes another problem. I don't even want to have to intervene in these situations - I wish I could just wake up from a dream that wasn't happening. But there I am, trying to bring peace.

Any ideas on how I should do it better?

:cool:

[Voyager]

My experience with my Dad also doesn't confirm your idea of Dads being more "generous" with their daughters; on the contrary, mine was more or less entirely focused on the needs/wants of my brothers.
I am really sorry for that Theodora. That wasn't very nice of him. Most of the dads that I know are pretty "easy" on their daughters, and the moms tend to be tougher since they have more of an understanding of the female nature and are not as easily manipulated by daughters as dads can be. But I am sure that's not always the case.

:cool:

[Kerrin]

:o Sheesh; and I was going to apologise, worried all day about my reaction!

Sorry Voyager,
I meant well, It was just based on my experience.
It sounds like you have the all the "tools" as Jerry says.....
Love and Prayers,
Kerrin ;)

[Kerrin]

[QUOTE=Voyager]I agree with you. However, things were quite volatile at the moment, and my daughter probably would have thrown a fit if I asked her to leave in that heated moment.

Only an opinion again, but, at this point was it possible to discuss rationally what was happening without berating your wife or de valuing her?
If , in trying to resolve the conflict, your wife comes off looking like you have sided against her (whether that is true or not), you could have said to your daughter , something like ,"I need to talk to Mum, (mom), for a few minutes alone, would you excuse us for a bit?".


B][QUOTE]I admit that I do have a problem with correcting my wife in front of my daughter whe[n my wife is raging at her. [/B]

Correcting a mother in front of her children is demoralising, as it is for men.

I'm no expert, your wife and daughter's are blessed to have you around willing to love them through these difficult times.
I REAllY mean that!
Especially the hormones, raging, that make us women so unique and special, raging all around you.........most men would head for the nearest pub, or bury their head in the sand! :D [/B]

Anyway, two books that may help: "Captivating" John and Stasi Eldredge; a very sensitive look at women and their heart , especially with "absent" parents /and or where there has been abuse.

The second, again Stephen Arterburn's "Every Man' s Marriage" , ( my husband and I read it together, and while we are NO example as our own marriage failed, we both agreed it helped us to understand our roles, our desires, and needs a little better.

I still strongly advise against "excusing" behaviour because of past hurts, it's ok to acknowledge and seek help and healing.
Like my counsellor tells me now; that "stuff" happened back then , and while I needed to talk it out and get it out; it's finished!

( And as I said, I lived a life of my mother, and father, (and other family members ) , covering hers, and his, bad behaviour because of "whatever", and then Randy , who , again I allowed to abuse me, because, I excused him because of stuff that happened in his past!)

I admit that I do have a problem with correcting my wife in front of my daughter when my wife is raging at her. When this is happening, it's like I can do no right. I step in to try to soften the blows of my wife's anger, but then it just causes another problem. I don't even want to have to intervene in these situations - I wish I could just wake up from a dream that wasn't happening. But there I am, trying to bring peace.

I have heard repeatedly, lately Pyschologists and counsellors say, that peace at any cost is so common amongst men in families. Now , it is causing major problems because he is the head of the house! Now, before anyone screams at me about submission, it's not about that , it's about showing leadership within the family ,especially with a bunch of hormonal females!! At least until they all calm down enough for a family discussion,.

I truly think and beleive men and women have lost their sense of how they should behave as parents and as marriage parteners, just because of the way our society has become so "equality driven". WE've never had good role models, and have no rule books.
A home still requires leadership like any organisation, it needs a CEO ; whether thats' the man or the wife , they need to be united ,at least in front of the children, they need to feel secure that the two of you can sort out your differences without dragging them through it,.
Once you agree, or agree to disagree , then sit down and talk with the kids about what you BOTH have concluded.

Again , only a humble personal opinion, based on my own experience.

I am so grateful you have shared though, it has clarified a lot of past and present issues for me , so thanks Voyager.

Love
and Blessimgs
Kerrin ;)