Why is it so hard to go back to Church?

[Kerrin]

I miss church so much. :o
Every week I promise myself I'm going to make the effort and go to this 'new' church, of similar denomination, where some others from my old Church now go.
( They too left our old Church for abuse related issues!)

But I start to panic, and I just don't "do it"! :( :confused:
I convince myself I can, just go and remain seperate, but that's NOT how the "body" works is it ?
Nor is it how I "work" being such an "interactive" type of person!
In other words I just "have" to get involved! :rolleyes:
I'm trying hard NOT to be a rescuer, co-dependant , controlling, people pleaser again, but I don't know if I trust myself to jump in and find out when it's "too late", that I stuffed it all up again!
*Sigh*.....

Love
Kerrin ;)

[Theodora]

For me, at least, attending "my" liturgical church of a Sunday morning would mean having to be around people who, in the past, have demonstrated that they are not "safe" for me. As to when/where I should push past this fear and do what I'd like to do ANYWAY....who knows?

Your post in response to spongfan on NACR re her depression, e.g. re the actual physiological changes which occur, rang a small "ah HA!" bell with me. (For those who are interested, this is at http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2088)

There's a book by Elaine N. Aron called "The Highly Sensitive Person; How to Thrive when the World overwhelms you" which I have found helpful in sort of "validating" something of my experience. I think it probably would tally with some of your counselor's insights as described in your post. (I've not read this in some time, so don't have more information about this off the top of my head, other than the idea that there ARE some kinds of genetic differences, which make some people hyper-receptive/OVER-receptive to stimulus.)

??? Not sure how accurate this is, but from my experience, a certain clue to being in rather precarious "overload" is how VERY sensitive I can become to what might be "water off a duck's back" to someone else. If your background has included a lot of abuse making you extra "vigilant," than I think it makes sense to continue to take things at YOUR pace, doing what feels right to YOU. Believe me....I KNOW your hunger for the church community and comfort of the sacraments!

HOWEVER, I recently experienced some new "rejection" from the administrative secretary at this church which hit me SO hard in the pit of my stomach that I knew POSITIVELY that I am NOT prepared to go where I might need to "confront"/"explain"/"justify" my presence. My compromise, of late, has been to attend the Tues. Eucharist at this church, where I am slowly coming to know the new rector and am able to keep him abreast of my little saga of the moment.

I had thought I might attend another liturgical church this a.m. as I have before, but was just too tired to do this. Hubby is still asleep after a hard morning for him yesterday working at our "other" church, helping put dirt around the foundation of the fellowship hall to improve water drainage. Sweet guy that he is, he DID get up to try to go to "my" church with me too, but I sent him back to bed and he was glad to go. We'll see whether I revive enough to go to the "other" church. The people there are welcoming, generous, loving....BUT, I never feel like I've been "in worship" after leaving AND, introvert that I am, sometimes having to interact is too much "on my plate."

We'll see.....

Hope you get some good rest. Thanks for your response/update on NACR re your recent activities. (Your response to my thread at http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2113) Glad to know that Amy is doing well AND that you're encouraging her to continue to find HER wings as well. (Part of your care package is for her and I hope will support this process.)

Please don't feel "embarrassed" about the care package which is en route to you....it's just an offering in "stewardship" as best I can out of resources that came to hand. If it "speaks" to you....praise God! If not....pass it on...or dispose of it as you will. I do still hope to find and duplicate some of the tapes I've made of the previous services at "my" church, since I think you might like the sung liturgy and anthems...and, I really did like our rector's sermons....well-"grounded" in the faith, but always in touch with the latest in the secular world.

Blessings to you and much love---AND many prayers!!! ;) :D

Theodora




I miss church so much. :o
Every week I promise myself I'm going to make the effort and go to this 'new' church, of similar denomination, where some others from my old Church now go.
( They too left our old Church for abuse related issues!)

But I start to panic, and I just don't "do it"! :( :confused:
I convince myself I can, just go and remain seperate, but that's NOT how the "body" works is it ?
Nor is it how I "work" being such an "interactive" type of person!
In other words I just "have" to get involved! :rolleyes:
I'm trying hard NOT to be a rescuer, co-dependant , controlling, people pleaser again, but I don't know if I trust myself to jump in and find out when it's "too late", that I stuffed it all up again!
*Sigh*.....

Love
Kerrin ;)

[butterfly]

:( :( I miss church. THE PAIN IS STILL TO RAW . I WAS REJECTED,INVISIBLE TO THEM AND NEVER BELONGED.THE NON CHRISTIANS ACCEPT ME MORE THAN CHRISTIANS. I AM HURT HURT HURT!!! :( :( :( :( DO you know how it feels to go and be rejected to set there as if you didn"t exist. After being a member over 11 years!!I am hurting sooooooooo much!! :( butterfly :( :(

[Jerry]

I'm trying hard NOT to be a rescuer, co-dependant , controlling, people pleaser again, but I don't know if I trust myself to jump in and find out when it's "too late", that I stuffed it all up again!
*Sigh*.....

Love
Kerrin ;)
Wow that sure is a lot of stuff to be,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh !!,,,,,,,,,,wait I see whats wrong,,,,,,,,,,,Turn the telescope around ;)
Love Jerry

[Janice]

:( :( I miss church. THE PAIN IS STILL TO RAW . I WAS REJECTED,INVISIBLE TO THEM AND NEVER BELONGED.THE NON CHRISTIANS ACCEPT ME MORE THAN CHRISTIANS. I AM HURT HURT HURT!!! :( :( :( :( DO you know how it feels to go and be rejected to set there as if you didn"t exist. After being a member over 11 years!!I am hurting sooooooooo much!! :( butterfly :( :(


((((((Butterfly)))))
Al least your church has let you BECOME A MEMBER.

I've been at this church for 8 yrs. and they have rejected me from day one so...YES..I know EXACTLY how you feel!

[Tim]

((((((Butterfly)))))
Al least your church has let you BECOME A MEMBER.

I've been at this church for 8 yrs. and they have rejected me from day one so...YES..I know EXACTLY how you feel!

Why do you stay there?

[Theodora]

:( :( I miss church. THE PAIN IS STILL TO RAW . I WAS REJECTED,INVISIBLE TO THEM AND NEVER BELONGED.THE NON CHRISTIANS ACCEPT ME MORE THAN CHRISTIANS. I AM HURT HURT HURT!!! :( :( :( :( DO you know how it feels to go and be rejected to set there as if you didn"t exist. After being a member over 11 years!!I am hurting sooooooooo much!! :( butterfly :( :(

((((Butterfly))))--- Yes....I can understand something of your pain, though I don't know that much of your specific story. Among other things, a tangible "proof" of my being LITERALLY "not visible" in one church was when I needed to remain sitting because of pain/illness, and the person in back of me, who had stood to sing the hymns, repeatedly kept hitting me on the head "accidentally" with her hymnbook as she sang!!!

I'm sorry that you felt you never "belonged." It is an odd sort of thing for me to look at all the things I did in this particular church out of what I THOUGHT was "belonging," only to find that no one....not even the rector, whom I thought was a friend, in addition to being my priest...seemed to know that I was "missing" when I became ill. I was homebound for an entire year and no one visited, other than an initial "outreach" at Christmastime with flowers which I couldn't have in the house....allergies!...and cake I couldn't eat....again allergies!

Hang in there and seek out what YOU need and know that the neglect/abuse of one group of people does not mean that there aren't other places where you WOULD be received and welcomed.

Grace and peace to you and yours this day.

Theodora

--

[Theodora]

((((((Butterfly)))))
Al least your church has let you BECOME A MEMBER.

I've been at this church for 8 yrs. and they have rejected me from day one so...YES..I know EXACTLY how you feel!

From what I remember of your story, their "rejection" of you is because you have not conformed to what their "moral" standards have been in terms of smoking, etc. HOWEVER, your loyalty to your husband and marriage has meant that you did what you needed to do to continue to be with him where HE was supported in the faith community.

From my point of view....as I too straddle different congregations for different reasons, but for a similar need to be with my husband where HE is most comfortable....we need to be aware of where and how we get our own needs met as well, even as we also do what is necessary/desirable as a spouse. You've made some hard choices and tried to find some community ANYWAY there. From what you've shared here recently, there's obviously WAY too much pain in being there for you to continue to try to "fit in."

Sooooo???? Out of genuine concern for you as I see you struggling with SO many other issues as well, I'd encourage you to search out what DOES work for YOU....e.g.....

Unless your husband is REALLY blocking your way toward doing this, I would encourage you to also do some exploration to find out where you COULD be accepted. AND...on the other hand, if that kind of action somehow "threatens" your husband's faith, I guess I'd sort of question him as to WHY that would be.

From my point of view, even as there are infinite varieties of the "same" kind of plant or animal in the natural world, so are there different ways to approach the faith. It is NOT a "one size fits all" situation, as far as I can see.

As always..."Take what works and leave the rest"...and please do forgive me if I've said too much!

As Satscout has advised us repeatedly, "Courage, dear heart!"

Love and prayers--

Theodora

--

[spongfan]

It seems that we all have similar stories- let's face it, Church Hurts!!! :( I guess you could just as easily say that churches are filled with a lot of hurting people. So, I can't make sense out of someone "accidentally" hitting the person in front of them on the head with a hymnbook? :confused: :confused: :confused: For all the possible ways to hurt someone in church, that is the strangest abuse tactic I have ever heard. Actually quite funny, if you think about it. :p

Anyway, I understand not being able to go back to one's old church. You would think that the 'Body of Christ' could get its act together, but maybe that is just the point. No one is perfect. Maybe this is what helps us be able to accept one another in the end. :o Just thinking out loud.

Spongfan :cool:

[Theodora]

(snip) So, I can't make sense out of someone "accidentally" hitting the person in front of them on the head with a hymnbook? :confused: :confused: :confused: For all the possible ways to hurt someone in church, that is the strangest abuse tactic I have ever heard. Actually quite funny, if you think about it. :p

Yes....I thought it was rather funny too! Fortunately, I DID have the presence of mind to MOVE a bit out of the way! :D As I recall, the person who did this was quite oblivious to the idea that ANYTHING was wrong! So.... I guess you'd say that I'm a bit confused too! HOW is it possible to be singing about the love of God...or whatever...and be so in your "own world" that you're not noticing what you're doing to others? I don't really know that this was intentional. As I said, it was just a concrete example of being literally invisible there!!!


Thanks for your response, spongfan. I'm glad you're "here" and "thinking out loud!"

Blessings---

Theodora

[Hope 98]

Wow that sure is a lot of stuff to be,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh !!,,,,,,,,,,wait I see whats wrong,,,,,,,,,,,Turn the telescope around ;)
Love Jerry

Jerry you say so much in so few words...

I've really missed you man!
:D

[Michael]

I convince myself I can, just go and remain seperate, but that's NOT how the "body" works is it ?
Nor is it how I "work" being such an "interactive" type of person!
In other words I just "have" to get involved! :rolleyes:
I'm trying hard NOT to be a rescuer, co-dependant , controlling, people pleaser again, but I don't know if I trust myself to jump in and find out when it's "too late", that I stuffed it all up again!

One man came to me a few years ago and asked me to mentor him. He had seen dramatic changes in my life and my relationship with God. He wanted the same kind of changes in his life. His primary addiction was to legalism and being judgemental. That was his coping mechanism.

I set some conditions. One of the first things I asked him to do was to resign from all leadership positions at his church, even teaching Bible Studies, for a period of one year, while I mentored him. He cried bloody murder!, quoting verse after verse about what it meant to be a part of the body. I quietly listened. I told him that I agreed with everything he said. But the problem in his case was that he "used" every one of those positions to "earn" respect and to make himself feel more spiritual. He finally agreed to my condition.

Secondly, I asked him to refrain from "publicly" speaking a single word of criticism against his pastor during that year. This included his emails to the pastor and other elders which were sent to "encourage and edify" and to point out "error". Again, there was a long "discussion". I was very calm about it though. Either he accepted my condition, or I would not mentor him. He finally accepted.

A very strange thing happened. During that year he began to see how unhealthy his "service" had been. He had correct motives in his head. But in his dysfunctionality, they came out all wrong.

I am not saying that you are serving or being involved in the same way at all. I just share this story to make the point that sometimes it is healthier to withdraw from service -- for a period of time -- and just be a "taker" at church. (Afterall, the majority of the church are takers anyway, so it's not like a person is going to be alone.)

Kerrin,
If someone new came to a church where you were a member, and they were undergoing chemo and radiation, even if they were almost done with that course of treatment, you would encourage them to take it easy. If they immediately signed up for half a dozen ministries because they were an "interactive person", you would probably be concerned, especially as a nurse, wouldn't you? Even if they told you. "but that's not how church works!". If I am seeing things correctly, you have experienced at least as much trauma to your soul as chemo is to a body. Please be easy on yourself. Please give yourself permission to take it slow.

So, what happened with my friend? It was about three years ago that he came to me, asking for help. Amazingly, God began to free him from his fundamentalist judgementalism. It's still a battle for him, but it is so beautiful to see how much freedom he has found. God is so clearly in the process of transforming his heart.

Again, please do not read too much into my post. I am not saying you are like my fundie friend. My only point is that sometimes it can be "right" and "healthy" to take a step back and rest a spell. Please consider attending and not getting involved right away. It's difficult for me too. At our new church (there about 10 months) I still have not become a member, and have not joined any ministry teams. very strange for me -- but important for now.

In His Grace,

Your friend, Michael

[Kerrin]

Thanks Jerry :D , Theodora, and Michael again for your differing but relevant points of view.

Michael; I am quite willing to "take a step back" as it were, and 'receive' .......that would be great!
But I have this problem in that I can't say "NO"!
In recent months I attended two different Churches , invited by people from my old Church, and barely had I stepped a foot in the door, I was approached with ,"oh so pleased to meet you ,we hear you are great at such and such........."
"IT' s just what we need, someone like you leading this or that!! We want to start a 'this' programme and we hear, that you've done that so well elsewhere" etc.. etc. :eek:

I want to go to Church and "feel" God again the way I used to.
I want to sit and watch a while.
I really don't want to head up any ministry of any kind , yet!

I just want to be left alone to "recover', as you said Michael; NO, I wouldn't jump all over a recovering patient, giving them work to do, that would cause unnecessary stress.

I'll try again.
Maybe, next week, if I could trust myself to say "no".

Amy is fed up with my empty promises of stating I will not work more than X amount of hours a week ,only to come home and say; "sorry sweety, they 'talked me into working next week end!"
( I promised her I wouldn't work week ends........why do I do that???? :mad: ).

Grrrr. Sometimes I could bang myself over the head with that darn telescope Jerry!!! :(

Love
Kerrin :o

P.S sorry to have triggered you Shirley and Janice , but I understand where you both are coming from. I know what it's like to be ignored and shunned and finally have attending Church, made so unbearable you walk out the door with a load heavier than when you went in! And feeling like a Leper!

[profnachos]

I personally have never met anyone who admits to legalism. Sure, there is plenty of those who say they WERE legalistic in retrospect, and I am one of them, but people who hold on to legalism have way too much pride to see what is in them.

Looks like the man was light years ahead of everyone else just by admitting to his addiction to legalism, which I believe is spiritually far more damaging than addictions to pornography, drugs, etc.

One man came to me a few years ago and asked me to mentor him. He had seen dramatic changes in my life and my relationship with God. He wanted the same kind of changes in his life. His primary addiction was to legalism and being judgemental. That was his coping mechanism.

[Hope 98]

Looks like the man was light years ahead of everyone else just by admitting to his addiction to legalism, which I believe is spiritually far more damaging than addictions to pornography, drugs, etc.

I am so in agreement with you here!

[Michael]

I personally have never met anyone who admits to legalism. Sure, there is plenty of those who say they WERE legalistic in retrospect, and I am one of them, but people who hold on to legalism have way too much pride to see what is in them.

Looks like the man was light years ahead of everyone else just by admitting to his addiction to legalism, which I believe is spiritually far more damaging than addictions to pornography, drugs, etc.

He is a rare individual indeed. He and I have been best friends for 27 years. We were best man in each other's weddings. For the past 15 years he and I have tried to get together every saturday morning for breakfast. (I make a pretty decent omelette.)

Fifteen years ago, when he and I first started meeting regularly, at our first breakfast, we agreed that it would be a good idea to go through the Bible and write down all of the commandments so that we would know what it would take to "be a good Christian". We were totally serious. Fortunately we quickly moved past that lunacy.

For so many years our times together were times of comiseration as we expressed the guilt we felt for being such poor Christians. Where was our commitment? But of course, we felt vastly more spiritual than our pastors, who were always preaching to "the lowest common denominator". We were so damn proud of the fact that we were reading Francis Fenelon, Bernard of Clairvaux, Brother Lawrence, etc. Ohh, we thought we were so deeep, so superior to the average Christian in our church, who barely read the Bible, let alone the classics. We were totally clueless as to the depth of our spiritual poverty, and I don't mean that in the sense of the first Beatitude.

Over time I "gave up" on God. I knew that my faith was a sham. It was just that I had absolutely no clue as to what I could do differently. I told God that I wasn't going to pray anymore, and that if He wanted to talk to me, the ball was in His court. He did.

God really got a hold of me (by the scruff of the neck, or so it seemed) when my addictions finally came to the point where I was putting at risk my marriage, my career, my health, my reputation, and possibly my freedom. I hit bottom six years ago, and since then God has been patient, gracious, and generous. He led me through a number of mentors and sponsors who helped me face my issues and face my disorted views of God. Since then I have had the privilege of helping other men in the same way.

When I first began moving into recovery, my friend was very suspicious. At best it was humanistic psychobabble, at worst it was outright evil from the pits of hell. We had many discussions and even a couple arguments about it. But I guess the proof was in the pudding. Despite my friend's reservations, he could not deny that working the Steps had brought a great deal of positive change in my spiritual life, and even much freedom.

And of course, he was suspicious of this freedom too. But there was something about it that he envied, and something that resonated at a core level of truth.

When I first began mentoring him, we had a couple sessions just getting past his idea that feelings are irrelevant. Other related issues were the idea that this process was inherenly man-centered, or inherently selfish, etc.

A few weeks ago during breakfast conversation, I started laughing. He was presenting some theological concepts from a popular author. I laughed because as I was sitting there I found that I was the one that was resistant to new concepts, questioning the source, the interpretation, etc. We both had a laugh at the role reversal. He's still wrong, of course. :)

He came to me for help because he saw what his legalism was doing to his children. They were turning out like him, and that scared him. He could come to me because we had been through so much together, including impromptu all-night Bible study sessions when we were young. He worked at a Christian bookstore at the time. We would go down to the store, gather boxes of books, go back to my house and study an issue until dawn. Junk food, pop, and "fervor for the Lord" kept us going.

Well, sorry that I have gone on so long on this. I love this brother and praise God for the awesome changes I have seen in his life.

In His Grace,

Michael

[Hope 98]

I want to go to Church and "feel" God again the way I used to.
I want to sit and watch a while.
I really don't want to head up any ministry of any kind , yet!

I just want to be left alone to "recover', as you said Michael; NO, I wouldn't jump all over a recovering patient, giving them work to do, that would cause unnecessary stress.
Love
Kerrin :o


I've ended up staying 4 years in my current church, BECAUSE when I first showed up on their doorstep, they could see we'd been through the wringer and told us to just rest and heal!

They're not perfect, but they have been willing to recognize their imperfection in most areas.

[spongfan]

The strangest thing happened today at my new church. I taught Sunday school, and was going around the table asking everyone questions about their spiritual gifts and passions in life. However, I never once mentioned mine. I wanted to give everyone else a chance to talk- and I had been so convinced over the last year that my experiences did not matter, because when I was in Europe, I learned that talking about oneself is "very American," and this was somehow a "bad" thing. I think by this point, I had had any desire to talk about myself knocked out of me, and this is why I had such a shock when my classmate asked me, "And what about you?" I can't decide if God was trying to teach me humility through that whole thing or not, but it felt today like God was giving me back some of my personal dignity. I didn't realize how much I had been conditioned to think like a European. (not that Europeans are bad or anything- I am of European descent myself, as are many of us in America)

Just a thought.

Spongfan :o

[profnachos]

Thanks for the story, Michael. It heartens me to see that there is a plan of redemption for everyone.

He is a rare individual indeed. He and I have been best friends for 27 years. We were best man in each other's weddings. For the past 15 years he and I have tried to get together every saturday morning for breakfast. (I make a pretty decent omelette.)

Fifteen years ago, when he and I first started meeting regularly, at our first breakfast, we agreed that it would be a good idea to go through the Bible and write down all of the commandments so that we would know what it would take to "be a good Christian". We were totally serious. Fortunately we quickly moved past that lunacy.

For so many years our times together were times of comiseration as we expressed the guilt we felt for being such poor Christians. Where was our commitment? But of course, we felt vastly more spiritual than our pastors, who were always preaching to "the lowest common denominator". We were so damn proud of the fact that we were reading Francis Fenelon, Bernard of Clairvaux, Brother Lawrence, etc. Ohh, we thought we were so deeep, so superior to the average Christian in our church, who barely read the Bible, let alone the classics. We were totally clueless as to the depth of our spiritual poverty, and I don't mean that in the sense of the first Beatitude.

Over time I "gave up" on God. I knew that my faith was a sham. It was just that I had absolutely no clue as to what I could do differently. I told God that I wasn't going to pray anymore, and that if He wanted to talk to me, the ball was in His court. He did.

God really got a hold of me (by the scruff of the neck, or so it seemed) when my addictions finally came to the point where I was putting at risk my marriage, my career, my health, my reputation, and possibly my freedom. I hit bottom six years ago, and since then God has been patient, gracious, and generous. He led me through a number of mentors and sponsors who helped me face my issues and face my disorted views of God. Since then I have had the privilege of helping other men in the same way.

When I first began moving into recovery, my friend was very suspicious. At best it was humanistic psychobabble, at worst it was outright evil from the pits of hell. We had many discussions and even a couple arguments about it. But I guess the proof was in the pudding. Despite my friend's reservations, he could not deny that working the Steps had brought a great deal of positive change in my spiritual life, and even much freedom.

And of course, he was suspicious of this freedom too. But there was something about it that he envied, and something that resonated at a core level of truth.

When I first began mentoring him, we had a couple sessions just getting past his idea that feelings are irrelevant. Other related issues were the idea that this process was inherenly man-centered, or inherently selfish, etc.

A few weeks ago during breakfast conversation, I started laughing. He was presenting some theological concepts from a popular author. I laughed because as I was sitting there I found that I was the one that was resistant to new concepts, questioning the source, the interpretation, etc. We both had a laugh at the role reversal. He's still wrong, of course. :)

He came to me for help because he saw what his legalism was doing to his children. They were turning out like him, and that scared him. He could come to me because we had been through so much together, including impromptu all-night Bible study sessions when we were young. He worked at a Christian bookstore at the time. We would go down to the store, gather boxes of books, go back to my house and study an issue until dawn. Junk food, pop, and "fervor for the Lord" kept us going.

Well, sorry that I have gone on so long on this. I love this brother and praise God for the awesome changes I have seen in his life.

In His Grace,

Michael

[jjc9497]

I was going to give up on church, and as a last resort, ended up in a church run 12 step program. Although I don't have any of the "typical addictions" (if there is such a thing), my background of abuse and the most recent church fiasco had left me lost and totally bewildered. These people, including the pastor, acceptied my as I was and where I was. Within a few weeks, I volunteered for the worship team. The first practice sent me home in a full blown panic attack. I had no phone numbers to call (because I was so new), so I just didn't show up until the service time (TOTALLY UNLIKE THE OVERRESPONSIBLE ME). Those people were not at all condemning that I skipped practice and wasn't going to sing. They all just wanted to know I was OK. After the service, I talked to the pastor. He actually told me that he was afraid I might be trying to get back into service too fast and that he was worried I might not be able to "get involved" so fast. He encouraged me to take my time, get comfortable, get some healing, and try again later. I did try again a few months later. Only managed one service and couldn't do it. Again, no criticism, just concern for ME. I think the actual words were "good for you, you made it thru one service--way to go!!!" I still don't quite know what to do with this level of care and concern--but I'm sure glad I found it. The pastor's concern for ME, and not just for getting a job done, convinced me I was in the right place. Also, he doesn't take it personal when I avoid him, he knows it's just the hurt part of me. I thank God for bringing me to this church.

I tell you all this just to let you know there ARE places out there where it is OK to be wounded and take the time to heal and still be treated as a "good" Christian. It is now over a year and a half and I am just beginning to take baby steps in leadership--and that's OK.

If you can't find a place like that (I know they are rare) you might try attending a large church and just "get lost in the crowd". Just a suggestion.

[Michael]

when my classmate asked me, "And what about you?" I can't decide if God was trying to teach me humility through that whole thing or not, but it felt today like God was giving me back some of my personal dignity.

That is VERY cool. thanks for sharing. You, your feelings, and your opinions as a distinct individual do matter. They matter to God and they matter to God.

In His Grace,

Michael

[lynn]

I too have been conflicted about church. I barely associate with anyone at church anymore. My church is not abusive like the one I left 4 years ago, but I have a problem with "church people" in general. I run the small children's ministry at my church, but I try my best to duck in and out of there without talking to people. I love the kid's- they are so much easier to deal with and minister to because of their little pure hearts. I get tired of all the Christian terminology such as "praise the Lord" or "God bless you" when I know they don't mean it. I meet much nicer people who don't even go to church! Right now we are thinking about leaving, but I don't know if somewhere else will be any better. I think I have become an expert at recognizing motives and seeing through people just from dealing with church folks!

[profnachos]

Hello Lynn,

Thanks for sharing. Word for word, I can relate except for the part about the children's ministry. I am not familiar with the current church enough to know whether it's abusive or not because I am so gunshy about getting too close to "church people."

As to the Christian terminology, (**shameless plug alert**) I wrote an essay called Christianese (http://davidcho.blogspot.com/2005/02/christian-ese.html) on my blog. It bothered me for a long time, so I decided to write my thoughts on a piece of paper and eventually my thoughts evolved into an essay.

I too meet much nicer people who don't go to church. When I lost my job, those who reached out to be were almost all non Christians and because of their help, I was able to get back on my feet and start my own business. From Christians, I only got Christian mumbo jumbo with zero substance.

I too have been conflicted about church. I barely associate with anyone at church anymore. My church is not abusive like the one I left 4 years ago, but I have a problem with "church people" in general. I run the small children's ministry at my church, but I try my best to duck in and out of there without talking to people. I love the kid's- they are so much easier to deal with and minister to because of their little pure hearts. I get tired of all the Christian terminology such as "praise the Lord" or "God bless you" when I know they don't mean it. I meet much nicer people who don't even go to church! Right now we are thinking about leaving, but I don't know if somewhere else will be any better. I think I have become an expert at recognizing motives and seeing through people just from dealing with church folks!

[Janice]

Why do you stay there?


Well Tim,
A long story but I'll try to make it short. Actually I haven't been there for 3 weeks now.

I'm there pretty much cause hubby is a both a member and a deacon.

I've talked to him about us going to seperate churches but he wasn't too keen on the idea.
Then he said if I really wanted to go I could.

I'm so angry, bitter, and have so much resentment towards church period now that I don't want to go anywahere!

[Kerrin]

I've ended up staying 4 years in my current church, BECAUSE when I first showed up on their doorstep, they could see we'd been through the wringer and told us to just rest and heal!

They're not perfect, but they have been willing to recognize their imperfection in most areas.

HOPE,
That sounds just like what I am looking for........a place to "rest" :o
To heal.
Thank you for sharing that , it gives me "Hope"! :p
Love
Kerrin ;)

[newpal]

I have found that one of the healthiest things I have done is to first come to terms with the reality that I can't 'go' to church because I am the church ;) . I recently found a place where I can worship ;) , and for me the key has been to place the emphasis on going to worship with others in the faith putting aside all judgmental attitudes. (That's something that I have to work on daily - not just in a place of worship.)

That is another thing I think helps me, and that is that I need to see myself going to a 'place of worship', not church, and in doing so I go with a heart set on worshipping God, and a great deal of the healing I am in need of seems to be getting stronger and stronger. :)

I try not to place any expectations on others or myself. I simply work on trying to place Christ at the center of all my thoughts, and try not to look at others or to be self conscious of what others are thinking, but only focusing on Christ and worshipping him wholeheartedly. In the place I go to worship I have found the more successful I am at doing that the more comfortable I am becoming and doors are opening up for me to utilize my gifts and grow into the system. However, I am keeping my 'antenna' in alert mode so that I am careful not to allow myself to be taken advantage of and used as I have in the past. In doing so I have found myself becoming more comfortable and at peace than I ever have in 27 years in the kingdom.

One of my character flaws in the past has been my inability to conform. I am very gifted in ministry but have a been a maverick and consistently looking for ways and methods to improve things, but at the same time carried a critical attitiude and pointing out the flaws of a system, or the people in leadership. And, I'm certain that played into setting myself up for the abuse I encountered because that would invariably cause a conflict and abuse would follow because I didn't have the 'authority' to initiate change.

One thing that has concerned me greatly here is that I read from people that they are trying to get over the abuse they have encountered by staying in the same system that abused them. I don't believe that is healthy. I think I read that someone here is not being allowed to be a 'member' of some 'church' even though their husband is. Truthfully, I think that person needs to leave that system regardless of what their husband says. I just don't see how you can get healing any other way, and even though it would be a difficult thing to do I think that if you are in a abusive system of any kind you need to get out - IMMEDIATELY, and not go back - ever! :o

[Pinkie Pie]

I have found that one of the healthiest things I have done is to first come to terms with the reality that I can't 'go' to church because I am the church ;) . I recently found a place where I can worship ;) , and for me the key has been to place the emphasis on going to worship with others in the faith putting aside all judgmental attitudes. (That's something that I have to work on daily - not just in a place of worship.)

That is another thing I think helps me, and that is that I need to see myself going to a 'place of worship', not church, and in doing so I go with a heart set on worshipping God, and a great deal of the healing I am in need of seems to be getting stronger and stronger. :)


That is such a refreshing way of looking at "going to church". Even with my healthy church, it DOES have its imperfections (including me...) and it has been getting me down lately. Just looking at it in the way you suggest is a "picker upper." It's so easy for me to get bogged down in "analysis paralysis" about every single little issue that comes up at church, I was getting kind of despondent because of my preoccupation. This kind of takes the pressure off - off of ME, and off of my expectations on my fellow church members - to be PERFECT. (which is all due to my fear of being abused again, even though I've been away from my abusive church for 7 years now!!!!!)

[Kerrin]

Thank you ALL for your responses.
Each and every one has/is helping me to make my move towards returning to Chuch; but just (prayerfully), with a different attitude, and a different expectation.

I hope I "find" some peace in simply worshiping, and ceasing to "fix" or whatever it is I do that runs people off!

Love
Kerrin ;)

[newpal]

"Do not be afraid; you will not suffer shame.
do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated,
You will forget the shame of your youth...."(Isaiah 54;4)

Kerrin, seeing this under your sign off seemed to me to be something you might want to re-read. I normally skip over the verses or statements people have under their sign off. However, I was pulled in by yours for some reason and drank it in slowly and it really resonated. I wonder if you were to maybe etch it even deeper within your own heart if it might not carry you through those bad moments wherever it is you are seeking to worship.

[Blake]

Also,

Why nt take it it bite sized cunks..go maybe twice a month, then see if you like the church and go for a shopping trip..ask God to help you...I think taht your first mpression of teh church will speak voulumes..do they seem interstde, are they nice opeople, spekas to teh pastor ect...

theres no need to put yourself under any sort of pressure...you ahev been badly hurt and the fact you want to try go back says a lot about how mucgh God has heald you/...mostr people just reject God outright!

Just take it slowly.

[Kpark42]

Why is it so hard?? So many people say to me...."so..where are you going to church now?" and for over a year, it's been nowhere. We are not going back to where we are members..so many others have left. We miss it but are scared about going to another church. The pastor has badmouthed a lot of folks that have left and gets the word out to other pastors. Hopefully, they don't listen to him! Why is it so hard??????

Kpark42 :(

[butterfly]

:) Kpark 42 :) When people asked me where I was going to church most of them were the judgemental ones. :( I would say " No where but I haven"t gone away from the Lord. He knows the reason and understands why I don"t go to church.. I live in a small coumminty where the pastors get toghter for breakfast. So I know how hard it is to try to go to a new church. Never know what the new pastor has been told . If you want to share with the new pastor the abuse then you don"t know what his reaction will be. The other members who have left do they go to church somewhere? Maybe they can tell you how their new church is and if the pastor understood why they left the other church. For me it was hard because of the other members who were nosey,judgemental, critizing,and the Pastors parrots!! They would go right back to church and repeat what they heard. Oh well I was on the Wed.night bible study gossip prayer list for a long time!! :(butterfly

[lynn]

I don't know if anyone else had this problem, but there is one thing to watch out for. The abusive system I was in made me beleive that I must be a member of a church, so even though I left the first church I thought that I immediately had to find another to be a member of and keep on "working for the Lord". Although I love ministry, I should have looked around and been more wary of people instead of immediately joining another church and trying to fit in (those of us who have our own minds generally do not fit in!). Fear led me to my current church and I'm seeing some things that I don't like. I want to go to a "house of worship", not a place where the Pastor tries to run people's lives and people just want to please him. It seems to me that then we take on that attitude at most churches in America, we remain "outsiders". That's OK with me!

[Kerrin]

. For me it was hard because of the other members who were nosey,judgemental, critizing,and the Pastors parrots!! They would go right back to church and repeat what they heard. Oh well I was on the Wed.night bible study gossip prayer list for a long time!! :(butterfly[/QUOTE

Me too Shirley!
I was on the prayer chain" for years, and had complete strangers, (to me) ,would come up to me and ask "how are things going with such and such"? or worse stuff; so I to learnt that it was just a GOSSIP chain for the Vicar mostly! :(

Oh, and of course the "parrots" " well said!! :p

Thanks ALL for your input; it helps me to define my new boundaries as I "attempt" Church again , (another one, a different one, of course!). ;)

Rule No: 1 when I go: , Don't "join" or sign up for anything!

Love
Kerrin ;)

[lynn]

HA! I love that "gossip prayer list" remark! :D

[mirror]

so I to learnt that it was just a GOSSIP chain for the Vicar mostly!

One thing we were pushed to do at our last church: stand up for the pastor no matter what was said about him! It was our duty as church members to protect the pastor's reputation. We were also to let him know if someone had a problem with him. I figured it was so he could make ammends. :mad: But he took anything we told him, and used it against the member who said it. :eek: I found that out later, and was furious that I had been used like that!
Rule No: 1 when I go: , Don't "join" or sign up for anything!

AMEN! You joined the body of Christ (the Church) when you became a Christian! No reason to "rejoin"! :D

[Kerrin]

You all are so great!! :D
Thanks,
Love
Kerrin ;)

[sarah j douglas]

Hi Karrin,
It took me a year of not going to any church to get over the lie that I had to. I haven't been back to church in over six years. because after a year I didn't die or go to hell so I figured out that these folks were probably wrong. I guard like treasure all that God has taught me and healed me of over these years out of church. I may return some day if I find a church I like, but knowing what's out there....I think I'll continue to make Sunday family day!

[Michael]

Hi Karrin

Actually, Sarah, it's Kerrin, with an "e".

Michael

[sarah j douglas]

Actually, Sarah, it's Kerrin, with an "e".

Michael

I am very sorry. I have a sister named Karen and that's probly where I missed it. Kerrin with an E it is, I will not forget! :)

[Janice]

Actually, Sarah, it's Kerrin, with an "e".

Michael


LOL..you took the words right out of my mouth. (as usual) :D

[Michael]

I am very sorry. I have a sister named Karen and that's probly where I missed it. Kerrin with an E it is, I will not forget! :)

That's understandable. I can't speak for Kerrin, but from what I know of her, she can be very gracious.

May God draw you ever closer in His loving embrace,

In His Grace,

Michael

[lynn]

Mirror,

I know what you mean about having to stand up for the Pastor. What an ego trip. For a long time, my husband and I didn't feel as though we could even talk to each other about what was going on with the pastor and his wife. Our silence is one of the things that kept us there for so long. And women were already portrayed as gossiping meddlers, so he sure didn't want to hear anything negative from me.

[Kerrin]

That's understandable. I can't speak for Kerrin, but from what I know of her, she can be very gracious.

May God draw you ever closer in His loving embrace,

In His Grace,

Michael

Well, thank you. one and all, ( personally, I don't think I am that 'gracious'), :o However, I do appreciate the "correct' spelling and pronunciation of my name.
FWIW: when I was living in Texas they just could NOT get thir head around "KERRIN" it was "Karrin" ; whichever way it came out, so I learned to answer to anything vaguely like "Kerrin" . :rolleyes:

AS for Church? After my week -end away, "time out" I guess; and Theodora's precious daily devotions.............I have decided, (and prayed) that I am going to try a new Church next week , but seriously this time!

Something I can't explain has happened!! :confused:

Love all your points of view though , and good to see yours too Sarah J. ;)

Love
and Blessings,
Kerrin ;)

[ex-shep]

Well, thank you. one and all, ( personally, I don't think I am that 'gracious'), :o However, I do appreciate the "correct' spelling and pronunciation of my name.
FWIW: when I was living in Texas they just could NOT get thir head around "KERRIN" it was "Karrin" ; whichever way it came out, so I learned to answer to anything vaguely like "Kerrin" . :rolleyes:

AS for Church? After my week -end away, "time out" I guess; and Theodora's precious daily devotions.............I have decided, (and prayed) that I am going to try a new Church next week , but seriously this time!

Something I can't explain has happened!! :confused:

Love all your points of view though , and good to see yours too Sarah J. ;)

Love
and Blessings,
Kerrin ;)


Go back when you are ready and comfortable. Easy does it as the AA slogan goes. It took me 20 years to join a church. Tell me more about cults and spiritual abuse I can to know, but I digress.

I have been some healthy highly reccomended churches which some members of the staff have a working knowledge of mind control. I was still too shell shocked to stay involved. There were still too many bad memories. That was when I was 4 to six years after I walked out. Most of the Nineties I had no church involvement at all. Sunday was just another day. I did some comfort in a Quaker Meeting. I am not sure why I stopped going. They were a good diverse bunch. It was not until I moved down to Texas, did I seriously evolve back into any church involvement. It was not until 2003 that my wife and I joined our current church. I can say it was worth the wait.

That is my two cents of observation-- of course that and $3.82 will buy a venti non fat one sugar latte.

[Kerrin]

[QUOTE=ex-shep]Go back when you are ready and comfortable. Easy does it as the AA slogan goes. It took me 20 years to join a church. Tell me more about cults and spiritual abuse I can to know, but I digress. I can say it was worth the wait.

;) Thanks ex-Shep,
Maybe I'll visit "a Church" when I stay with my (ex) sis in law next year when their new house is built in Fort Worth, or rather just outa' Fort Worth! ;)

Anyway , another week has gone by, and I couldn't go ! I can't beleive the energy I waste stressing about actually wasting a couple of hours sitting in a pew on a Sunday!

*Sigh*
Love
Kerrin ;)

[Janice]

Anyway , another week has gone by, and I couldn't go ! I can't beleive the energy I waste stressing about actually wasting a couple of hours sitting in a pew on a Sunday!

I understand COMPLETELY!