sexuality and spiritual abuse? ((TRIGGER ALERT!!!)))))

[Blake]

hI all, :confused:

this is a hot topic (excuse the pun) but I think for guys its a valid question..need some constructive feedback0 FROM ANYONE- including women.

I have a sneaking suspicion that many churches delight in supressing sexuality and also in the way that yo :confused: u cant hold hands with a girl etc and how dating happens etc..but I need to get feedback about the topic of sexuality..God has black and whitre issues...homosexuality, incest, sex before amriage...all WRONG and God has ways to deal with this, but what about issues like masturbation, etc..obviously its not okay if ther is a thought life in fantasy attched, but what about physical issues if you're a guy..

I have to be candid..its VERY hard to not engage in this type of thing due normal sex drive etc, but churches seem to assume it an adiction if you feel its tough to stop, and in many ways, for guys, its TO A DEGREE, a physical buildup ...

I am going on tour to do a theatre show, and to be honest- and sorry if anyone is offende..but sexual flings are VERY COMMON..male on male, female and male etc..I am committed t god and want to stay this way, but feel that I owuld rather masturbate than do something with someone else.

What is a balanced issue with this topic...I saw a therapist once who said that dealing with ghis twice to thtree tikes a week weas not an addiction as compared to 20 times a day...

I know this is verty personal, but I can guarantee each guy who is single on this forum probably thinks this..I need peace of mind as to how to deal with ths, as I cant tell god I'll never do it again, when I KNOW the time will come when due to build up physiologically ect I may end up doing it....am I being stupid,

PLEASE HELP?

[Blake]

Also, people say this issue is wrong, but there are so many grey areas!!!!

[Jerry]

Dear Blake,,,,
GOD = A totality incaporial force of intellect capable of calling an entire universe into existance by the sheer force of His will,,,,,and creating you while He was at it............................Do you really think He doesn't understand ??????? ;) Relax Blake,and stop listening to morons ;)
Love Jerry

[Kerrin]

Blake , try reading some of Stepehen Arterburn's stuff.
Specifically, "EVERY MAN'S BATTLE" !!! . ;and "When You Love Too Much"
"Every Man's Marriage" , and "Every Man's Challenge"........

My husband read them while we tried to re build our fractured marriage, and although that failed, he DID comment these books helped him as a male understand his sexuality in the context of God much better........you know without guilty or shame!

Also Joshua Harris, has a few on 'Dating ' etc.... (A man's perspective).
I personally find these a bit too, ummm, "unrealistic" might be a good word, but all the same worth a try! ;)

Blessings,
Kerrin

[butterfly]

Blake,I am so mad :mad: :mad: I just spent a long time thinking and replaying to your thread. I was in review post and I hit my mouse by mistake and Poooooooof my post was gone!! :( :) My brain is to tired to reply again right now. I will try again tomorrow. :( Boo Hoo I had alot of positive things to say Errrrrrrr. There I feel better. :D butterfly

[magicbear]

Blake-

Thanks for being willing to risk in sharing your post brother..... have to laugh

jerry & his own inimitable style...... LOL..... Im pretty sure the Almighty GOD

does understand..... i went through Bible College & Seminary and the issue

you brought up blake NEVER talked about though we ALL struggle with it

reminds me of a funny story,,,,, i was a leader and taught the high school

group at my church with a team of people we had various topics and of

couirse one was sex & dating the guy teaching decided to do a very

"special topic" everyone is in their chairs he has a blanket over a black

board & says get ready to be surprised pulls away the blanket and on the

blackboard in CAPS..... THE BIG M.......... SILENCE STUNNED SILENCE

LOL i dont think anyone could believe he was doing it..... so he tells us all

to get inti small groups & share if we struggle with this ,,,,, a mixture of hs

boys & girls mind you..... ummmmmmmmm .... needless to say NO ONE

shared LOL although statistics show both men and women engage in

the activity often enough anyways theres my nickels worth :o


Robert

[Janice]

((((((((Blake))))))))

[Wendy]

Dear Blake

Masturbation seems to be a big (unanswered & hidden!) question in a lot of churches. I have thought about it a bit and have my own take on it:

Firstly, it's not just a guy issue! (And you think if difficult to get answers on for guys!!! Girls? Well, girls don't masturbate do they??!!! :-p)

Also, I preface everything I am going to say with the fact that I am a woman, and so I do not understand the intensity of the physical drive that men apparently feel. But, as a woman, these are my thoughts.

As you alluded to, having an orgasm is not a sin. I do not believe that masturbation is a sin. But boy, are you playing close to the fire!! As you said, it is the thoughts and fantasies that will get you. (Matt 5:27-28) I found that while I could make it purely physical sometimes there were times also when I could not. To me, I was playing Russian roulette every time and the consequences were just not worth it. I felt distant from God whenever I let thoughts slip in there, and I knew that I was running close to the line even when I didn't.

Our mind, heart, body and soul are all deeply interconnected. When you are sad (an emotion) you cry (physical). When you are worrying (thoughts) you become stressed/depressed (emotion) and get a headache or tight shoulders (physical). As I have journeyed closer to God I have found that when something is 'not right' with him (spiritual) I am edgy (emotion) and often get the same headaches and stiff shoulders (physical) that I get when I am stressed. They are all interrelated (hence why God wanted us to love him with all our heart, mind, body and soul and not just with our head or with our heart.) God made us this way. So to try and seperate them all, as in the instance of masturbation, is a uphill battle, that you won't win very often. (And lets face it, you have to be thinking about SOMETHING!)

From a different perspective, I came to realise that masturbation was also leaving me wide open. I am a virgin and plan to remain that way til I am married. But while I am physically pure, I have definately been there in my mind. By choosing to continue in the habit of masturbation, I would be dwelling on the could be, would be, should be - my husband won't have much of a chance to meet my expectations! If two people have both spent plenty of time thinking about it beforehand, they won't be coming to the marriage bed ready to join together, learn together and share a new sexual experience together - they will both already have expectations. They may as well have had sex before. And what happens if those expectations are unfounded...they were fantasies after all...? And if your partner was game enough to tell you that you weren't meeting their sexual expectations, then what? To me the options seemed like guilt, frustration, pretense, open hostility, unfufilment or that one in a million chance that you both have had similar fantasies and that you are both able to fufill each other in them. Again, odds that seemed to be against me.

[Now, I am looking forward to a wedding night, when hopefully we will both be awkward, and we will have to figure it out together!]

But the clincher came when I realised that I was training myself in ungodliness. When I was willing to walk as close to the line as possible on the issue of masturbation I was hardly walking in the whole hearted obedience that God so desperately longed for. Technical obedience yes, but not a heart and soul obedience that takes you to heaven and back. That was my major turning point, when I decided to leave it behind.

I have heard it said that while men struggle with the physical (in all areas of life) women struggle with the emotional. So perhaps my own experience is skewwed slightly in that direction. I just found that at the end of the day I couldn't seperate the thoughts and emotions from the physical. and given that I don't have the physical drive that men apparently do, it was just a matter of (sometimes really hard!) discipline to leave it behind. Perhaps it is not the same for men. Perhaps it is.

Hope my experience and thoughts are helpful. In the end, I just urge you to keep praying about it with an open heart to see what God is saying.

God Bless
Wendy

PS. "Wild at Heart" by John Eldridge (? I think that's how you spell it!) is a great book about what it means to be male. It's counter part "Captivating" for women is also brilliant.

[Jerry]

Dear Wendy,,,
After reading your post ,,,I would add to mine.I know that my post reads a little flippant,so just to clairify.......Can "masterbation" be a problem ???? Sure it can,but no more or less than anything else in our social environment,like gambeling,drinking,smokeing to name a few.My intent was to impress on Blake that perspective and that he should allow no one to induce him to attach some extraordinary guilt .To live within the current terms of his existance,,,,,,,,,,Human ;)
Love Jerry
P.S. huh!!!!! That goes for you too :D

[Wendy]

Jerry,

I agree with your original post - God DOES understand and I think it's good to remember that!

In relation to your recent post, we are human but we are also called to be holy (speaking of big expectations!). To this point, God convicts us - points out our sins at just the right time, so we can repent, be forgiven and draw closer to him. Satan condemns us - points out our sins, loads us up with guilt and makes us feel as though we can never be relieved of it. God convicts us to draw us closer to him. Satan comdemns us to drive us from God.

We should ignore the condemnation, and respond to the conviction. :)

Wendy

[Jerry]

Jerry,

I agree with your original post - God DOES understand and I think it's good to remember that!

In relation to your recent post, we are human but we are also called to be holy (speaking of big expectations!). To this point, God convicts us - points out our sins at just the right time, so we can repent, be forgiven and draw closer to him. Satan condemns us - points out our sins, loads us up with guilt and makes us feel as though we can never be relieved of it. God convicts us to draw us closer to him. Satan comdemns us to drive us from God.

We should ignore the condemnation, and respond to the conviction. :)

Wendy
Good point,I think we agree.I just hate to see these "Holy Men" load young people with heavy burdens.How can they deliver a message of "Salvation" and then do "Satans" work ???? They are doubble minded men who truly strain out a "nat" and swallow a camel :mad:
Love Jerry,,,,,,,,,,,,That Aussie/American time warp is a killer isn't it ???? :D

[Kerrin]

Blake,
I still strongly recommend Stephen Arterburns books, " Every man's Challenge" and "Every Man's Marriage".

He deals very explicitly with male sexuality in a practical , common sense, and non judgemental way. ( I.e there is no condemnation).

John Eldridge's book "Wild at Heart" is also very good , in a different way, (thanks Wendy ,and welcome ;) . I agree, with some of your comments, but reserve comment at this point on others.

Stephen Arterburn has also , together with his wife, written books specifically for women, which might interest you Wendy, in the same vein, and again very explicit.

Good to "see' a fellow Aussie here, I am a frequent flyer up North!! :D

Do you visit WORD very often in Brisbane? Thay have a large selection of books on sex.........from a wide range of points of view.

Blessings,
Love
Kerrin ;)

[Blake]

Firts,,trhanks fo0r all your freplies..

I have to be candid and say that generally...fantasy and sexual mind scenarios are not really the problem..I have never struggled iwth this to a large extent- occasionally yes..and its there at times, but not really..it seems to be a physical thing....

There is a burden that is piuut oin me in this existence and while I agree self control is a real thing, I cannot say that outside of a miravle I will never mastrurbate agin..I have dealt iwth this iossue now for almost !% years...deliverance etc, accountability etc..I think in a controlled scope its okay but I also feel i need tyo fo0cus on with other things and if it happens, so be it, but I cant allow myself to be OBSESSESED with tyhis issue.....people say masturbation is bad and while I hear tjem, are they the ones who have a low sex driev, who are single? Its easy to theorise..I agree about not being addictive but if YOU are married, is maturbnatiuon bad? The for a single person its badm, for a married person its not.....if the weife wants no sex? The man has a higher sex drive, so he masturbates to respect his wife?

There is NO balck and white..there are greay areas..and what wortks for one, isnt the same for another...

What do you think?

[Jerry]

;)

There is NO balck and white..there are greay areas..and what wortks for one, isnt the same for another...

What do you think?
Dear Blake,,,
Read 1st Corinthians 7 verses 1-9,,,,,,,,,It seems that Paul agrees with you ;) .....Although masterbation is not the subject,,,,it is my opinion that Paul would not be averse to adding masterbation to the paramaters stated in those verses.
Love Jerry

[Janice]

The man has a higher sex drive,


The man has a hgher sex drive? :eek:
Ain't necessarily so.

[Kerrin]

The man has a higher sex drive,


The man has a hgher sex drive? :eek:
Ain't necessarily so.

My sentiments exactly Janice!!
Why is it men presume they have a higher, or greater need for , sex?
It isn't a "fact"!

As for Masturbation.
Like everything else , people here stuggle with; if it becomes obsessive, excessive, and all consuming., then it becomes an addiction .
My opinion only.

And please don't take this as an attack anyone!

I encourage you Blake to continue questioning etc....until you find "peace" within you about this subject.

Love
Kerrin ;)

[Hesed]

.....offering my personal opinion, your mileage may vary.......


Every time this subject comes up as a theological issue within Christianity, I want to say "get a grip". I think we've done our young people a complete disservice in making them feel so guilty.

I DO agree with the others that there is a caution against "addictive" behaviour, but that same caution applies to everything in life. (I do seriously wonder, sometimes, about the time I spend on the internet, for example!)

I know it's a very "liberal" thing to say, but I really do believe that this prohibition came from the ancient belief that sperm contained what we would now describe as the entire DNA of a human being. So male masturbation was seen as murder: wasting the seed of potential human beings without the possibility of any of them growing into a baby.

I'd want to affirm good, solid relationships and marriage as the Christian ideal. It seems to me that it is far preferable to engage in solo activity rather than in casual sex; the latter, in my view often really DOES end up hurting a lot of people.

[butterfly]

. :( "THE PLEASURE OF CASUAL SEX DOES NOT LAST LONG . THE DAMAGE IT DOES IS LIFE LONG. :( :( STD, unwanted children, shame, self hate to name a few. I feel the church uses masterbation as another control issue to shame our young.I do not see anything wrong when one needs to release oneself. Sexual feelings are given to us by God . No one has any business telling us if we can or not. Our lifes are private it is between the Lord and us. butterfly

[lynn]

Every Man's Battle had helped my husband and I a lot. Sexual immorality starts with the mind and the eyes. The author's position is that if you don't learn to bring those into submission before marraige, it will pop back up once you are married. I have found this to be especially true, because my husband and I felt that the only way to deal with his desires was to hurry up and get married so his desires could be taken care of. Of course, this didn't work for long because he never learned to bring sexually immoral thoughts into submission.

[Blake]

I ahd a skim of 'Every Mans abttle' the ogther day in the ookshop..I do feel a lot of thhe commenst are unsubstantiatyied and biased in that book..one of them is that...

'Masturbation only takes place if you have had impure thoughts'.

What a lot of CRAP!!!! There are MARRIED couples who have chosen to masturbate..i.e the woman doesnt want sex, so the man masturbates etc...many men wuill simplyu masturbate due to the physical and not thoughts...that said..impure thougts can and DO elad to masturbation, but not only..

IS THIS A BOOK TO TRY AND DEVELOP AN IDEAL TYPE OF 'MARRIAGE' FULL OF FALSE GUILT ETC OR WHAT? i DONT DISMISS THAT IT DOES HELP A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT JUST BECAUSE A SERIES HAS BEEN WRITTEN DOESNT EMASN THAT ITS ALL GOD INSPIRED OR THAT ALL THAST IS IN THERE IS BIBLICAL.I AM JUST TRYING T FIND A BALANCE ABOUT THIS AREA, AND AM TIRED OF 'MORALISING' WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ITS BASIS IN BIBLICAL TRUTH.

If something is substantiated by medical and psychological fact, the I woudl say it s pretty truthful..soem people have said taht a child who consistenly gropes his genitals will possibly end up with a masturbation problem ..ministry modules actually state this... mty therapis even told me that this type of theotising is rubbish.

his is my take right now..there is a ba;lance!!!!! God's word and psychology and mediscine are all harmoniious.....no need to be hreted by one or the other...this makes me SICK!

(venting over!) :)

[Janice]

I ahd a skim of 'Every Mans abttle' the ogther day in the ookshop..I do feel a lot of thhe commenst are unsubstantiatyied and biased in that book..one of them is that...

'Masturbation only takes place if you have had impure thoughts'.

What a lot of CRAP!!!! There are MARRIED couples who have chosen to masturbate..i.e the woman doesnt want sex, so the man masturbates etc...many men wuill simplyu masturbate due to the physical and not thoughts...that said..impure thougts can and DO elad to masturbation, but not only..

IS THIS A BOOK TO TRY AND DEVELOP AN IDEAL TYPE OF 'MARRIAGE' FULL OF FALSE GUILT ETC OR WHAT? i DONT DISMISS THAT IT DOES HELP A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT JUST BECAUSE A SERIES HAS BEEN WRITTEN DOESNT EMASN THAT ITS ALL GOD INSPIRED OR THAT ALL THAST IS IN THERE IS BIBLICAL.I AM JUST TRYING T FIND A BALANCE ABOUT THIS AREA, AND AM TIRED OF 'MORALISING' WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ITS BASIS IN BIBLICAL TRUTH.

If something is substantiated by medical and psychological fact, the I woudl say it s pretty truthful..soem people have said taht a child who consistenly gropes his genitals will possibly end up with a masturbation problem ..ministry modules actually state this... mty therapis even told me that this type of theotising is rubbish.

his is my take right now..there is a ba;lance!!!!! God's word and psychology and mediscine are all harmoniious.....no need to be hreted by one or the other...this makes me SICK!

(venting over!) :)



I echo Butterfly's reply:

Sexual feelings are given to us by God . No one has any business telling us if we can or not. Our lifes are private it is between the Lord and us.

[Kerrin]

It's a shame Blake that you only "skimmed" the book.
This book helped my husband a lot ; his words NOT mine!!

There are MANY good books (Christian Books), on Sexuality, for both men and women!

As always you take what works and leave the rest!

I really do not think Stephen Arterburn was implying masturbation was/is a sin in the way you have interpreted it.
Like ALL addictions, this one, is just another that can become an obsession.

And I think THAT was his point; his references about matsurbation within marriage were in relation to a man choosing self gratification at the expense of his wife and initimacy with her, therefore jeopordising the marriage.

Having been married, intimacy is far more than the "act" of sex whether it's with one's self or each other.
Stephen Arterburn is not the ONLY authority on this subject ,and I never implied that, in fact I have read numerous christian perspectives; some with far more extreme ides about sexual sin than what you appear to have "read" into whatever it was you "skimmed".

So ,sorry if I offended you, I will leave this Thread and converstaion.
( I was only trying to offer some useful points of reference).

Blessings,
Love
Kerrin ;)

[Blake]

Kerrin.. :)

Its hardly your fault if I disaree with something...so please dont be ogffended or even feel rejected at all...obviously I appreciate it, but I am also (like te rest of you here) trying to rebuild a walk with god taht is good, so you dont need to get upset at all...I am sorry if you took my words as a personal attack..I can be VERY outspoken, and I know that people can get quite stuinned by this....I open my mouth and get into trouble sometimes..

dont take it personally..trust me, If I was angry with you you would know it, and gto be honest..I apprecite all te attention people have invested inh this post....its just such a difficult issue, isnt it... :D

[lynn]

I didn't want to say much about this subject because of the anger it has caused Blake, but I must add something to this dicussion. This is something that has caused a lot of hurt in my marraige. When I read Every Man's Battle it was much better than any psychobabble (if it feels right you must do it because it's dangerous to suppress your urges, etc.) that didn't help me because it was true to my situation. My husbands pornography addiction and masturbation was an immoral problem. I don't know how this relates to anyone else, but I thought this might help someone. I tried to overlook his actions as just a natural physical thing and it just got worse until we started applying the priciples found in the book. What made it worse is that my abusive pastor had the same problem and tried to justify it, when the bible clearly states that to look upon another woman to lust is adultery. Also, our wedding vows said to forsake all others. He had to deal with the root of the problem before he could truly be faithful. I have found that the book has many points that can be substantiated by the bible and scientifically(such as the chemical reactions). It talks alot about the physical side of things, which we can't ignore, so I don't pass judgement. I just wanted to express my OPINION that this is an awsome book that helped save my marraige. I respect anyone else's views, though (although from personal experience I may not agree) :)

[Jerry]

What made it worse is that my abusive pastor had the same problem and tried to justify it, when the bible clearly states that to look upon another woman to lust is adultery. Also, our wedding vows said to forsake all others. He had to deal with the root of the problem before he could truly be faithful. I have found that the book has many points that can be substantiated by the bible and scientifically(such as the chemical reactions). It talks alot about the physical side of things, which we can't ignore, so I don't pass judgement. I just wanted to express my OPINION that this is an awsome book that helped save my marraige. I respect anyone else's views, though (although from personal experience I may not agree) :)
Dear Lynn,,,,
This part of your post caused me to think of a point that hasn't been clearly made so far.There is a significant difference between "Teenage" experimention,and "Adult" addictive behavior,,,,,,,,Teenagers, "Boys" for the most part, should not be taught that masterbation is some kind of a deep dark curse and somehow less forgivable.Adult addictive behavior,on the other hand,that combines the viewing of pornography & masterbation has quite different dynamics,such as "Porn Creep" that can severly damage the sexual relationship in a marriage.If I was pastoring a church,I would try to have sex ed for teenagers that combined a biblical view along with instruction from a clinical psycoligest.What teenagers need is nonjudgemental instruction,,,,,not condemnation.Although they seldom show it,,,,I have found that teenagers respond well to accurate truthful information rather than some idiot thretening HELL.How can you scare a teen with hell,when at their age,they view themselves as immortal.Thanks for your post Lynn :D
Love Jerry
P.S. Thought directs the eyes,and the eyes direct the soul.Slowly,,,,,,we become what we look at most.

[Kerrin]

I didn't want to say much about this subject because of the anger it has caused Blake, but I must add something to this dicussion. This is something that has caused a lot of hurt in my marraige. When I read Every Man's Battle it was much better than any psychobabble (if it feels right you must do it because it's dangerous to suppress your urges, etc.) that didn't help me because it was true to my situation. My husbands pornography addiction and masturbation was an immoral problem. I don't know how this relates to anyone else, but I thought this might help someone. I tried to overlook his actions as just a natural physical thing and it just got worse until we started applying the priciples found in the book. What made it worse is that my abusive pastor had the same problem and tried to justify it, when the bible clearly states that to look upon another woman to lust is adultery. Also, our wedding vows said to forsake all others. He had to deal with the root of the problem before he could truly be faithful. I have found that the book has many points that can be substantiated by the bible and scientifically(such as the chemical reactions). It talks alot about the physical side of things, which we can't ignore, so I don't pass judgement. I just wanted to express my OPINION that this is an awsome book that helped save my marraige. I respect anyone else's views, though (although from personal experience I may not agree) :)

Lynn,
THIS was the reason I suggested this particular book; because of it's balance, and with the sensitivity it treats women in relationship with men..
And how male experiences affect women and intimacy.
( His other book "Every Woman's Battle" is equally as good, I thought!) ;)
My first husband was addicted to sex, as you describe; explaining away masturbation and pornography as "necessary" for his "urges" (God given of course), that was in addition to his abuse (sexually ) of me; and 'yes!' in marriage it happens!
Your point , which is also made in the book, about these actions being at the expense of the wife and the relationship. It isn't biblically sound.
It is a abuse in this context because they are not "forsaking ALL others" , instant gratification is at the core with no relationship with God in the situation.
It then becomes an addiction.
I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, Blake, you take what works and leave the rest; but please be willing to keep an open mind.
After all, God invented sex in ALL it's ways of being experienced, for couples to mutually enjoy.
I think the Bible is pretty clear on this subject; just ask Paul!

God Bless and hope you can "see" all points of view!

When it becomes an obsession, it becomes an addiction!

Love
Kerrin ;)
(I wasn't going to post again either, because it's obviously a 'touchy' subject, so I know I'm skating on thin ice here; therefore sorry if it's not in line with your thinking)

[Janice]

P.S. Thought directs the eyes,and the eyes direct the soul.Slowly,,,,,,we become what we look at most.[/QUOTE]


Well geeze!...Thanks alot. That's just what I needed to hear...NOT!

[Kerrin]

I hope I haven't been misunderstood here!

I meant along the lines of what Jerry is saying.
I'm talking about obsession and addiction, obsession with sex and self gratification, that is!! :o

Amy and I had an in depth discussion about sex ed today, and she asked what I would do if she came and asked to go on the Pill??
( Rather than re-act with :eek: , because of my own experiences!!).

We talked about sex in relation to the Bible etc...
BUT in NO WAY would I EVER preach hell fire and damnation to anyone let alone a CHILD!!!
How could I possibly, with MY past!!! :eek: , propose to judge another!!!

I think this is one of those times I can't "get it out right" so I'll shut my trap!! :( :confused:
Love
Kerrin