The church and sexual abuse ***TW***

[jjc9497]

After posting a brief account of my past, there were several responses that related to sexual abuse and I thought it might be a good idea to start a new thread dealing with that. THIS MAY BE TRIGGERING--SO PLEASE BE SAFE IF YOU CONTINUE TO READ.

!st experience: Youth leader attempted rape when I was forced by my parents to see him for counseling. He claimed "I thought that's what you wanted!" I never
told anyone about this incident. In that time (early 70's) I was so afraid he would be believed and I would be labeled a slut.

2nd experience: The gossip mill (started by my father) was that my mother was having an affair with the minister. To the best of my knowledge, that was not true, but my mom and the minister were so austrisized by everyone they did eventually end up together and got married. Everyone hated the new minister and my mom was blamed. Although no one ever said anything to me or treated me badly at church, I never felt a part of the "family" after that.

3rd experience: When I began to deal with the effects of the sexual abuse suffered as a child, I went to my pastor. At first, he tried to be helpful, but he had a policy of not counseling women. After I tried a few times to talk to him (as he was the only man I trusted) he finally accused me of "being after him" (the furthest thing from my mind!!!!!). It made no difference if I tried to speak to him alone or bring a friend along. He was so paranoid it is almost funny now--if it hadn't been so devastating.


After these experiences I have come to a few conclusions:

Our pastors are totally ill equiped to deal with the real issues of adult women (or men) who have suffered sexual abuse. The church is woefully behind the secular community in offering help and hope to victims. In seeking help from a pastor, MOST women are further traumatized. They are either easy prey for men in ministry who are predators, or they are considered dangerous by those who fear either a false accusation of inpropriety or are afraid of their own ability to resist tempation. The result is the victim is, again, at fault. My 3rd experience was just as devastating as the first. In both instances, the "pastor" put sex into the relationship. The first tried to take it. The last treated ME as a sexual predator. That was in some ways more devastating to me---as most victims of abuse consider themselves at fault and one of the hardest things to overcome is the guilt of having done something to cause the abuse. What I heard (between the lines) of what that pastor said to me was "You are guilty, you are dangerous, you are dirty, etc". He confirmed my worst fears about myself. It took me a LONG time to get over what he said to me and to realize he was speaking from his own dysfunctions.

When a minster has a relationship with a woman in his congregation, it is NOT an affair. There is an unequal power distribution inherent in the relationship and it is TOTALLY the minster's responsibility to maintain the boundaries. When this situation occurs, there are so many secondary victims: the families of the minster and the woman involved, the church family, etc. My experience is that the pastor--who is loved and revered, is considered the victim of THAT SINFUL WOMAN and she and her family are blamed and shunned. Ususally the minster is offered all kinds of counseling and help (including having his salary continued) until he can work thru the "problem". The woman is left bereft of all help and comfort and loses her church family, sometimes her own family, and is usually offered no financial help or counseling. This is all backwards. Any other professional who abuses a client or patient is held acountable, but in the church it seems that the victim is treated as the perp and the perp is the victim.

Anytime anything of a sexual nature occurs between a pastor and a person in the congregation, spiritual abuse occurs. Just as we learn about what God is like from our fathers, we also learn about God from our minsters. When they put sex into the relationship, either by seeking it or accusing someone else of seeking it, it is as if God is doing that. This causes devastating damange spiritually.

The seminaries (cemetaries!!!) in this country need to do a much better job of training pastors how to deal with sexual abuse victims, and how to deal with issues of transference without further damaging the person who has come to them for help. Other professionals get training on how to deal with transference, etc. without further damaging the fragile person who has come to them for help.



I better quit rambling (and venting) or I could go on forever.

[InTheory]

You made a particularly good point here-pastors are taught that they are somehow "above" the congregation (especially in evangelical/charismatic circles), and the "touch not mine anointed" becomes to mantra to cover the pastor's sins.

I believe that the new testament application of "touch not mine anointed" refers to the ENTIRE body of Christ, and in this instance where a pastor abuses a church member, he has "touched the Lord's anointed" and will be dealt with severely by the Lord.

Pastors need to stop believing that they are in God's stead-they are not-all of God's people are in equal standing, and if anything, the ministers have a lower standing as servants and helpers to the body of Christ at large.

I have "served" in ministry for many years (I wish it had truly all been service to God's people-unfortunately it was often divided between service to God's people and service to the ego of the senior pastor).

I truly believe that, when pastors stop believing that they have God's endorsement for everything that comes out of their mouth, they may be ready to actually serve.

My 2-cents.

Dan




The seminaries (cemetaries!!!) in this country need to do a much better job of training pastors how to deal with sexual abuse victims, and how to deal with issues of transference without further damaging the person who has come to them for help. Other professionals get training on how to deal with transference, etc. without further damaging the fragile person who has come to them for help.



I better quit rambling (and venting) or I could go on forever.

[jjc9497]

Pastors need to stop believing that they are in God's stead-they are not-all of God's people are in equal standing, and if anything, the ministers have a lower standing as servants and helpers to the body of Christ at large.


Dan[/QUOTE]



AMEN BROTHER

[Kerrin]

jjc..
First, you are in NO way rambling.
You have started a very valid thread, and it saddens me deeply thet these things have happened to you.
My Story, as follows may trigger:
My own sexual abuse, (including 'date rape', pregnancy and abortion........all out of my control.......at 16 y/o). began very early! :(
When I went back to Church looking for acceptance help ,comfort etc. after my divorce,,.. I was approached by a married member of the congregation who was Youth leader and a senior member of the leadership; he often called me, cornered me, arrive on my doorstep late at night, etc..etc... I was scared and complained to our Vicar(Pastor), who said he "would take care of it".
I beleived him.
I was then told I needed "deliverence"!
Thus started a process over several years where he and his wife "ministered" to me privatly to rid me of the 'demons' of lust and everything sexually deviant.
It apparently was all my fault.
( I was too attractive, dressed too provocatively, wore too much make up ,,,blah , blah.)
They ,at length, dragged out of me, great detail about my sexual past which was , not only hugely humiliating , it was like being 'raped' and abused over and over .
I never understood why, I only seemed to get 'worse'; and became paranoid in the presence of any man that I was "flirting with them" or something, because ultimately my Vicar accused me of having a Jezebell spirit ,(and I was basically of no good to society in any form! That any success I had , was because of my looks and deception!).).
I was scared to talk to any male.
(It's kind of funny in a sick way really ; if I had really had that much power over men WOW! :rolleyes: )

I think ,now, it was sick and vouyeristic of him and his wife, and that he "got off" on hearing about my past.

When I re-married a man the Church approved of only, (it only lasted 10 months I felt guilty 'enjoying' sex), and again sought the Vicars counsel, (my Vicar always said he had a policy of not seeing women alone , but he often saw me behind closed doors; I guess that is how he gets away with it being "my word against his" excuse. I was 'hand balled to another Pastor, (retired), and had to 'vomit' it all up again........Nothing got better, I just became more and more reclusive and depressed).
(He had a woman in the Church talk to me in front of a young male friend of ours, and tell me to "just lie there and let my husband do whatever he wanted because that was the greatest 'gift' to God I could give!) :eek:
How could a loving God, and Jesus the man who showed so much compassion to women , want me (or any woman) to suffer this violation and soul destroying 'thing'? :confused:
I was made to feel so ashamed, a lier, and defective!
And he just wouldn't let up on calling me Jezebell!
( I've said it before here , but THAT word hurt so bad I came home and cried out to God to take me home so the enemy could NOT use me to ruin people's lives!).
Well, God didn't answer that prayer ,'cos I'm still here so???? :confused:

Anyway ,now that I am in secular counselling; one of the hardest things to come to terms with is ALL the sexual abuse in my life and ALL the pain associated with that!
And To realise it wasn't my fault! I have to keep repeating that over and over ....it hasn't sunk in yet! :( :confused:
The most devastating revelation was that my former church had continued to abuse me in this vein. So much shame.......cuts like a knife into your soul doesn't it?
All the shame , just goes on and on......shame and more shame! :(
And he, (and all the men), gets ALL the continued support; I am ostracised ,as is my daughter, and I have since discovered other single women who were targets of these male predators as well.!!

I feel helpless to speak up, to stop, it or to protect the young girls I see now being abused by the same men and their sons!

You're right in saying there is more secular help than there is in the Church.
The Church won't even acknowledge it's existance let alone a solution......it just seems to be "ok" to abuse Vulnerable women and children.
And the cases that they HAVE to take notice of , I see, only brushed under the carpet and not spoken of again.

I had some young friends who took my "case" to the Bishop........that was months ago and he said " he would get to 'it' ", that 'it' wasn't 'big enough an issue to deal with now"....... :eek:

My friend's husband said he would "stand by me" , but well, you know when you've heard that by men ALL your life it means zip!
And I'm scared I'll be accused of trying to seduce him too!
So, I've distanced myself from them and their offer of help as well........I guess I just don't trust anyone any more , especially anyone who is still claiming Christainity is the best thing on the Planet!

Sorry so long, ( just wanted you to know you're not alone, and appreciate you're honesty......and obvious strength!) :)

Love
Kerrin ;)

[jjc9497]

((((((((((((Kerrin)))))))))))))

I am so sorry you have suffered so much. I can SO RELATE to being made to feel that just by breathing I am a danger to "godly" christian men. I have spent my whole life trying to be asexual. Women, especially in the church, are made to feel like if a man lusts, it is our fault. I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it HURTS so much.

[Kerrin]

((((((((((((Kerrin)))))))))))))

I am so sorry you have suffered so much. I can SO RELATE to being made to feel that just by breathing I am a danger to "godly" christian men. I have spent my whole life trying to be asexual. Women, especially in the church, are made to feel like if a man lusts, it is our fault. I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it HURTS so much.

Isn't THAT the truth!!
How do you "be a woman"?
I don't know , all I've EVER been told is "I tempt' men!, when ALL I want is to be loved and accepted for me.

My (ex), 2nd ex, that is; Just this week-end text message me asking me if I want to attend a work conference with him in October! :eek: :confused:
He is Roman Catholic, he left me, I was accused of that marriage breakdown, he paid for me to fly interstate to be with him at Christmas to "work things out" (is what I thought! :rolleyes: :o ), I came home ready to pack and move away from Melbourne; he text messaged me and said he didn't want to see me!(So ,I just felt like a prostitute that whole 2 weeks with him!)
I feel so dirty!
Ashamed .
Humiliated.
Guilt.
I admit I left a message on his phone this week-end just stating it was amazing that we are "married" and I have no idea where he lives!, and haven't heard from him since my "visit"! :o
I was hoping , just maybe , just maybe , he would want me enough to pursue me as my husband.............stupid me again!
( I'll admit I don't love him , but the Church chose him as "perfect" for me , so I must deserve him right???)

Sometimes I just think it's all too hard
There are too many layers, and as each one is peeled off it just hurts more. :o :confused:

I have tried doing "asexual" too!
Yesterday I took Amy shopping and she said as we were walking along talking, "Why do those men stare at you?" :confused:
I don't know!!!!
Maybe I dress funny , or look weird! :o :confused:

I like hiding under my rock but someone keeps pulling it off me! :eek: ;)
There has to be an answer.........I just don't know what it is.

Thank you for sharing your story of this kind of abuse; because it is very much spiritual, and no-one wants to talk about this one very much do they??
So we continue to feel ashamed and guilty for being born female.

Love
Kerrin ;)

[jane]

When a minster has a relationship with a woman in his congregation, it is NOT an affair. There is an unequal power distribution inherent in the relationship and it is TOTALLY the minster's responsibility to maintain the boundaries.

Yes, I totally agree. The other thing that ticks me off are the 40 year old men who talk about 13 and 14 year old girls as dressing provocative- that they should not entice men- that body parts are body parts no matter how old.....

eeks!

How come with other sins it is our own fault, our own wrong heart except in lusting after young women?

sick, self centered, crap is what I called it.

jane

[jane]

Has anyone seen our news about the sunday school teacher arrested for molesting a 6 year old child in New York? The Sunday school teacher goes to (until he just got kicked out of) a church here in Plainville, CT.


Funny thing, the Pastor said, "NOTHING HAPPENED IN OUR CHURCH< IF HE DID I WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT, NOTHING LIKE THAT GETS BY ME!" well, that comment made me puke....


and another comment, the news clarified that the teacher hadn't molested the child, only had the child perform oral sex and touching!

That would be enough for me to shoot him if it were my child!

Since when does that not constitute molesting???????????

Just came out on yesterdays news.......sick sick sick.

I don't know what made me sicker, the controller self righteous pastor who kicked him out of his church and said there was no way anything would get by him....

or the media's definition of sexual assault!

[Blake]

FIrst---

I just want to say to all you women who have been through this that it is in NO WAY YOUR FAULT and none of you desreve to think you were' asking for it'.

M
The men who did this to you all are animals and I canguarantee you that god wont let it slide.

I just want to say on behaf of us men who ike to belivfe we are decent and respect women that I am so sorry you had to go through this, and please forgive us- as ahrd as it may have been. we've treated you pretty badly. Im not perfect but i will also always chat to my co-star before, in an audition or show if I have to do a sexy scene or kiss her ect..so I hope that says soemthing about respect.

All your hurst and pains are valid.

Blake

[profnachos]

You made an excellent point, jjc. I've been through at a couple of churches where the pastor was caught having an improper relationship with a woman, and we debated and discussed what the course of "restoration" and "accountability" should be for the pastor, but not a single word was ever said about the woman. At my current church, there is a established policy on how to handle pastors, but not a word about the abused.

In fairness, in both cases, we never learned the identity of the woman, which I think was good for the sake of her privacy, but you are absolutely correct. Nobody discussed the course of "restoration", forgiveness, and redemption for the woman. My guess is that she was unceremoniosly evicted from the church without a trace, which is an easy thing to do in a metropolitan area like Southern California.

[jjc9497]

Yes, and what about her family? If she has a husband and children, they are all secondary victims. I think the church is so afraid of lawsuits these days that they are unwilling to do the right thing----assuming, of course, that they would even recognize that helping the woman and her family would be the right thing.

[Hope 98]

I don't have anything to add - I just wanted to let you all know that I'm nodding my head in agreement :o and shaking in grief :( .

[Kerrin]

I don't know what made me sicker, the controller self righteous pastor who kicked him out of his church and said there was no way anything would get by him....

or the media's definition of sexual assault![/QUOTE]

All of the above , Jane! :mad:
Kerrin.

[Kerrin]

My guess is that she was unceremoniosly evicted from the church without a trace, which is an easy thing to do in a metropolitan area like Southern California.[/QUOTE]

:( :( :confused:
AS WAS my case !
And I have to "bump" into these people at my local shops, and my gym, almost weekly, the Pastor ; who won't look me in the eye and his wife who smurks at me!
And the sleazy married guy who attacked me and another woman in our Church followed us both to a 'new' church where we told the Pastor!
And , why am I so surprised to hear him say "I'll have a meeting" with this man!!! :eek:
What about us? I haven't gone back and she keeps begging me to , but I have since discovered his 15 y/o son molested Amy's best friend a year ago in our "old" Church , and the Pastor knows all about it!!
These men still hold leadership positions ,and attend both Churches!
( This young man has tried to prey on Amy , when she WAS using msn; I won't allow her now other than when I 'see' who she is talking to!)
Where is our protection?
Where is the help???
Where is there some place to go that is safe?
What do I do to protect my daughter from what she has already seen happen by men claiming to be representative of Christ ?

I don't care anymore; I give up!
Kerrin

[jjc9497]

I heard on the radio of a survey done of professionals and the rate of sexual misconduct. Guess who was the worst group? This survey covered doctors, lawyers, teachers, counselors and pastors. The pastors scored the highest percentage of misconduct. I find that incredibly sad.

As to provocative dress inciting christian men to lust--we could all dress like Muslim women and I bet we would then be accused of WALKING in a provocative way. It's a no win in today's climate of pervasive sexuality.

[jjc9497]

This isn't so much abuse as sexual discrimination, but have you noticed that if a man gets angry--he is "strong" or "standing up for his convictions". If a woman gets angry, she is "hormonal" or "hysterical" or "PMSing". No wonder we have trouble expressing "bad" emotions. It's OK as long as we are weak (crying) or submissive (humble-sometimes shamed), but certainly don't stand up and dare to argue or you get labeled.


By the way--thank you to the men who have responded in this thread for your sympathy and outrage. We need more outrage from the men about how the women get treated. THANK YOU

[mirror]

As I read these stories, I find myself in tears for each one of you!

I suffered sexual abuse, and though most of the memories around it are fuzzy, I remember enough to cry with you! For me, it was a neighbor once, and a church deacon... that one went on for a year or more... I'm not sure. At one point, I did actually "forget" that it had all happened, but even then, my relationship to men was odd - I never trusted them, and though I was interested in dating, I didn't! One day, in college, a guy grabbed and kissed me (French) and the memories of the deacon's abuse came pouring in. I shoved him away and ran! LOL! Poor guy never knew what he did wrong!

The suffering didn't stop when the sexual abuse stopped, as you all have mentioned experiencing as well! It affected my relationships, my marriage, and even motherhood. It resurfaced over & over for no apparent reason, and if I dared mention it to another Christian, I was suddenly considered trash! And as I've mentioned in another thread, my so-called therapist blamed it all on me as well.

I have learned to state vaguely that I've been abused, and leave it at that. On occasion I get brave enough to mention the term "sexual abuse" or "molested", but I usually regret it!

jjc9497, you're right! Seminaries don't teach a pastor how to handle this subject! Hubby didn't learn when he was in serminary! And men, in general, only know what they hear from others (in other words, they learn to blame the woman). I say "in general" because I know there are men who DO understand, and DO care about the situation! Sadly, seminaries tend to be run by men!

Anyway, I just wanted to say I understand and I hurt for all you who have been through this. Also, though it's not as common, there are men who have been sexually abused as well! And seminaries aren't helping pastors prepare for that either.

[jane]

we could all dress like Muslim women

If the information that I have read is accurate, They still get raped (victorian era had largest numbers of rape and women were covered) AND then THEY go to jail or are stoned to death for their rape......


so let's not run to cover our heads!

jane :D

[jane]

I heard on the radio of a survey done of professionals and the rate of sexual misconduct. Guess who was the worst group? This survey covered doctors, lawyers, teachers, counselors and pastors. The pastors scored the highest percentage of misconduct. I find that incredibly sad.


I also read in Christian Today or a christian magazine that the highest rate of pornography requested television in the hotels of DC was during a christian conference.... NOT A LIBERAL POLITICAL PARTY!! Imagen that.....


But let's not get confused; RAPE is NOT about SEX-- Millions of studies show; it is about VIOLENCE< POWER < AND CONTROL.

What makes it sick with pastors is men and women often see a pastor as a spokes person of God (whether done by the pastor or the person) and has very little ability to say no.


and about that snickering pastors wife whose husband was pastor and cheated--

she may be snikering on the outside but she is crying on the inside- afterall it was her lover that went elsewhere!!!

jane

[butterfly]

:(:( :( [[[[[ MAY TRIGGER!! :( MAY TRIGGER !!!]]]]]]]]]]] I was sexual abused all my childhood. These were family members. One time when I was around 10 I was at a friends house and her uncle started to put his hand up my dress. I grabbed his hand pushed it away and said don"t do that and the adult babysitter came in and said girls come in the kitchen with me. I had enough at home and I was real mad at him. "I said I wish he will die to myself. Well the next day he did die. He was fishing and drowned. When my friend told me he was dead I felt just like I killed him. I thought" Oh my God what have I done." That was one of the times God protected me from not feeling guilty I rember telling the babysitter and cryed she was about 18 years old. She was so nice to me and helped me to see I didn"t kill him. If I had that power back then there would be allot of dead people :D . Gee I wouldn"t had very much family left with the sexual and emotional abuse. Now when I look back I can see sometimes where God did protect me. My father and my grandmother[mothers ,mother] were in a cult and used me for sexual abuse also with other family members I have rembered enough. During that time I would always say to myself."When I grow up I am going to church and I will be loved and safe.I"ll have a family " HA!!! :mad: :mad: NOT SO!!! I have a family non Christian friends.They love me don"t judge me and let me be me. The church that I thought was my home and safe place became worse than my childhood. Because they condemed,judged and repermended me all in the name of GOD!! :( :( I started having memories and depression with panic attacks. I was not going to church as much womans bible study and womans get toghters I told why" My BIG mistake" The Pastors wife said well allot of the woman here at church said they have been sexual abused and they don"ta act like you.I did not act like nothing!! All I did was not go to church.Now if I had cancer ect I would of been ok.That they understand. I was invited to a womans house with other woman.I said I will come but it depened on how I fell. Well this woman invited me to her house to have coffee. I thought well she is trying to be nice to me .WRONG She had me go so she could repermend me for not trusting God and how I felt was an excuse and I could come if I wanted to at her house with the other woman. There was another woman who had a hard time going out of her house.She would go to church sometines.Well the way they talked about her I can just imanage what they did with me. That confused me about who God is the one who I loved was he the real one or there God. They both live in me. They God from church destroys me.my God isn"ta the God I know. They would do allot of praying to see someone saved. Then they would attack them for not fitting into the mold. There has been more abuse different subject.I am sorry for all who have been abused. :( :( We grieve tighter. This has affected my marriage, the way I see myself as a woman and my desires. butterfly

[jjc9497]

[/B
Thank you for sharing your story of this kind of abuse; because it is very much spiritual, and no-one wants to talk about this one very much do they??
So we continue to feel ashamed and guilty for being born female.

Love
Kerrin ;)

Wow---that is exactly it. I feel ashamed and guilty for being born female---and the church reinforces that belief. I don't feel like I am a person who sins, I feel like I AM SIN. SIN is my identity. How do we get past that and relate to a loving God (male)? To me, love is a 4 letter word and what has been done in the name of love has made love a terrifying thing. I remember once telling a friend that if this is what God's love felt like then I wanted no more--let Him go love someone else for awhile. It is just too terrifying for me. Someday, I hope God will let me KNOW, deep down inside, that I am His beloved daughter. But even saying those words sounds hopeless because it is too terrifying to contemplate. LOVE HURTS TOO MUCH, so don't love me, just leave me alone. Even as I write this, I know in my head that it grieves God that I am so afraid of Him, but I am afraid of Him.

[Hope 98]

Wow---that is exactly it. I feel ashamed and guilty for being born female---and the church reinforces that belief. I don't feel like I am a person who sins, I feel like I AM SIN. SIN is my identity. How do we get past that and relate to a loving God (male)? To me, love is a 4 letter word and what has been done in the name of love has made love a terrifying thing. I remember once telling a friend that if this is what God's love felt like then I wanted no more--let Him go love someone else for awhile. It is just too terrifying for me. Someday, I hope God will let me KNOW, deep down inside, that I am His beloved daughter. But even saying those words sounds hopeless because it is too terrifying to contemplate. LOVE HURTS TOO MUCH, so don't love me, just leave me alone. Even as I write this, I know in my head that it grieves God that I am so afraid of Him, but I am afraid of Him.

Yes - God is grieved. He is NOT as grieved by your fear, as He is grieved by the sins committed in His Name.

And if you think about it - grief is sadness. Maybe God's grief over your fear is the same as yours.

Perfect love casts out fear. It truly does. It just takes time. People are in a big hurry, but God is outside of time.

[Kerrin]

Wow---that is exactly it. I feel ashamed and guilty for being born female---and the church reinforces that belief. I don't feel like I am a person who sins, I feel like I AM SIN. SIN is my identity. How do we get past that and relate to a loving God (male)? To me, love is a 4 letter word and what has been done in the name of love has made love a terrifying thing. I remember once telling a friend that if this is what God's love felt like then I wanted no more--let Him go love someone else for awhile. It is just too terrifying for me. Someday, I hope God will let me KNOW, deep down inside, that I am His beloved daughter. But even saying those words sounds hopeless because it is too terrifying to contemplate. LOVE HURTS TOO MUCH, so don't love me, just leave me alone.

And at times like this, it is far more comfortable and 'safe' to keep that distance ; even if it is only in our heads; because HE knows our 'real' heart, but only He can see that part.

Even as I write this, I know in my head that it grieves God that I am so afraid of Him, but I am afraid of Him.

:(
I couldn't have said it better myself!
It' so confusing.
Where to from here?
This is my current dilemma, my current pain and suspicion of ANY male attention!
I sometimes wonder if I will EVER know what "normal" is , or what it means to be a woman, and actually 'like' myself for being born female! :confused:

Sometimes it's ALL just too hard.
And so lonely.
It just hurts, and no amount of rhetoric or self medicating or running makes it go away! :(

Thinking of you ,and thanking God that there is someone else out there who "knows" ,
Love
Kerrin ;)
*sigh*
Love
Kerrin

[mirror]

Wow---that is exactly it. I feel ashamed and guilty for being born female---and the church reinforces that belief. I don't feel like I am a person who sins, I feel like I AM SIN. SIN is my identity. How do we get past that and relate to a loving God (male)? To me, love is a 4 letter word and what has been done in the name of love has made love a terrifying thing. I remember once telling a friend that if this is what God's love felt like then I wanted no more--let Him go love someone else for awhile. It is just too terrifying for me. Someday, I hope God will let me KNOW, deep down inside, that I am His beloved daughter. But even saying those words sounds hopeless because it is too terrifying to contemplate. LOVE HURTS TOO MUCH, so don't love me, just leave me alone. Even as I write this, I know in my head that it grieves God that I am so afraid of Him, but I am afraid of Him.
I'm sure it grieves God! Not in the "how dare you" way but in the "I love you so much I wish you could accept it" way.

When I read about Jesus in the gospels, I read such love for women, who at that time and culture were barely above slave status! Matthew 9:20-22 (Jesus calls her "daughter"... and that word is used in all 3 books where the story is told... & heals her due to her strong faith), Luke 7:36-50 (Jesus pointed out a woman did right while all the men in the group did not... and this was NOT a decent good Christian woman), even when asked to intervene between a "cat fight" between woman, Jesus' love for both women shines through as He gives an answer in Luke 10:38-42. And how about the love Jesus showed to the Samaritan woman in John 4:7-43? Jewish didn't even talk with Samaritan men, let alone talk with the women... let alone a woman who was involved in the relationships she was involved in! Yet Jesus not only spoke to her, but shared His love with her, then stayed around for a couple more days! And the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11, my goodness, Jesus stood up to the entire "church" group (both the scribes & Pharisees) there for her! And then He, who was perfect, and of all the people involved had the right to, He refused to condemn her! When Jesus was killed and came back, who did He show Himself to first? A woman!

Kerrin & jjc9497 and anyone else who struggles with the question of how God loves women, I pray that you find that deep inescapable love!

[jjc9497]

I've been so down all morning. I put a trigger warning on this thread, and caught myself!!!!! Kerrin, I do understand and I wish I didn't--and I wish you didn't. The only thing I know for sure is that God will not give up on me (or you) until He has finished the work He has started. I am making the assumption that that means healing and not years and years of more pain. That would be too much to bear.

[Kerrin]

I've been so down all morning. I put a trigger warning on this thread, and caught myself!!!!! Kerrin, I do understand and I wish I didn't--and I wish you didn't. The only thing I know for sure is that God will not give up on me (or you) until He has finished the work He has started. I am making the assumption that that means healing and not years and years of more pain. That would be too much to bear.

Thank you *tears*,
I'm just glad someone else knows the pain!
And thanks too Mirror for acknowledging us in this.

It's inexplicable pain, and I too hope for healing sooner rather than later, so that it all will be a distant memory and a scar on my soul instead of an open wound.
And that applies to you and any other women suffering abuse.
Love
Kerrin ;)
( Thankyou again for opening up this dialogue despite the pain.......it feels 'somewhat' of a relief to be 'out' than 'in' , if you know what I mean)

[butterfly]

:( :( I hope I haven"t triggered any onw with my post.If so I am sorry for doing so. I know how hard it is to start dealing with the abuse. I feel like I shouldn"t off shared. I have an old wound about sharing. Please forgive me if I hurt anyone. butterfly

[jjc9497]

((((((((Mirror))))))

You didn't trigger me and no apology needed. I triggered myself by starting this thread. I'm OK though. Don't beat yourself up. I appreciate so much what you shared and to know that I am not alone in this. I am just so sorry you experienced sexual abuse, too. It seems to permeate everything in life, doesn't it? This has been really hard for me to talk about, but it has been very therapeutic, too. Every time I talk about it, it has less power to control my life.

I remember my brother's house was burglarized once and he and his wife talked and talked about how they felt so unsafe in their house and how violated they felt. I could only wonder at how they would have felt if their body (and soul) had been violated, and they COULDN'T talk about it. I feel unsafe in my own skin. I think we tend to process stuff by talking about it (especially women), and there aren't many places you can do that when the subject is sexual abuse--especially when it happens in the church. NICE people don't talk about this, and it could NEVER happen in OUR church. If only people knew.

[Kerrin]

This has been really hard for me to talk about, but it has been very therapeutic, too. Every time I talk about it, it has less power to control my life.

I , for one am so glad YOU have had the courage to bring it out into the open! Thankyou again.

I could only wonder at how they would have felt if their body (and soul) had been violated, and they COULDN'T talk about it. I feel unsafe in my own skin. I think we tend to process stuff by talking about it (especially women), and there aren't many places you can do that when the subject is sexual abuse--especially when it happens in the church. NICE people don't talk about this, and it could NEVER happen in OUR church. If only people knew.[/QUOTE]

It's a disconnecting, disgusting , myriad of emotion isn't it?
I had to see a new Doctor last week; mine was away; and had to regurgitate again why I can't sleep, and why I am so anxious........
She kept looking at me as if I was telling some 'made-up' story.
I sat for one whole painful hour as she asked the usual Dumb questions, "Why didn't you tell someone?", blah, blah, blah...
I kept on; Expalin some more ,and each time I just wanted to crawl back in my hole where it was all under lock and key and I felt somewhat safe!, because I was in control!

Why is it so hard to believe?

You know what made her sit up and take notice was when I said, " I had a caesarian section with no anaesthetic, (a nurse held my legs down), my anaethetist wanted to give me a General but I refused; I wanted to 'see' my baby; (at this point she sat back in her chair and covered her mouth, I think it was shock!), I continued; being a nurse, I knew how long it would take to get "her out" so I could bear that pain for that long! :(
I said to her, THIS?? THIS? emotional scarring of my soul.......hurts so much more and I would trade it any day for another caesarian without aneasthetic! :(
She finally softened toward me, but I felt "abused" again......I'm tired of explaining; You know what I mean??

Love
Kerrin

(P.S our Aussie spelling is sometimes slightly different , especially medical terminology, so forgive me for "speaking Aussie" :o ).

[jjc9497]

:( :( I hope I haven"t triggered any onw with my post.If so I am sorry for doing so. I know how hard it is to start dealing with the abuse. I feel like I shouldn"t off shared. I have an old wound about sharing. Please forgive me if I hurt anyone. butterfly


OOPS--my above post was to reassure you (butterfly) you didn't trigger me--got you and mirror confused. Sorry-----------and THANK YOU for sharing. The more we talk about it, the better things will eventually be because these terrible stories will no longer have such a hold on us---------------so share away.

[jjc9497]

[

Why is it so hard to believe?

Y
I said to her, THIS?? THIS? emotional scarring of my soul.......hurts so much more and I would trade it any day for another caesarian without aneasthetic! :(
She finally softened toward me, but I felt "abused" again......I'm tired of explaining; You know what I mean??

Love
Kerrin

(P.S our Aussie spelling is sometimes slightly different , especially medical terminology, so forgive me for "speaking Aussie" :o ).


It's hard to believe because no one wants to believe someone could be so cruel to a child, and it is disgusting, and it makes us afraid it could happen to us, and we really have no control, and people can be evil, etc.........

Yes, sometimes the professionals make it worse by needing details. My shrink (who is kind of creepy) just asks me the list of questions ( Are you suicidal? Do you hear voices? Are people out to get you?) He is actually kind of funny because he asks these questions so fast and in such a deadpan manner. But all I have to do is answer NO and then he doles out the drugs. At least he doesn't need all the gory details.

I like your Aussie spelling---besides, so many Americans can't spell right anyways, so who would know it was Aussie??????? hehehehehehehehe

[mirror]

I , for one am so glad YOU have had the courage to bring it out into the open! Thankyou again.


It's a disconnecting, disgusting , myriad of emotion isn't it?
I had to see a new Doctor last week; mine was away; and had to regurgitate again why I can't sleep, and why I am so anxious........
She kept looking at me as if I was telling some 'made-up' story.
I sat for one whole painful hour as she asked the usual Dumb questions, "Why didn't you tell someone?", blah, blah, blah...
I kept on; Expalin some more ,and each time I just wanted to crawl back in my hole where it was all under lock and key and I felt somewhat safe!, because I was in control!

Why is it so hard to believe?

You know what made her sit up and take notice was when I said, " I had a caesarian section with no anaesthetic, (a nurse held my legs down), my anaethetist wanted to give me a General but I refused; I wanted to 'see' my baby; (at this point she sat back in her chair and covered her mouth, I think it was shock!), I continued; being a nurse, I knew how long it would take to get "her out" so I could bear that pain for that long! :(
I said to her, THIS?? THIS? emotional scarring of my soul.......hurts so much more and I would trade it any day for another caesarian without aneasthetic! :(
She finally softened toward me, but I felt "abused" again......I'm tired of explaining; You know what I mean??

Love
Kerrin

(P.S our Aussie spelling is sometimes slightly different , especially medical terminology, so forgive me for "speaking Aussie" :o ).
jjc answered this very well! Both the reason it's so hard to believe, and I loved her answer about Aussie spelling! I don't know why I'm even posting here, except to let you know that I did read it and I do care! It's no wonder you're struggling so much right now! A new doctor; having to explain everything all over again... cut yourself some slack and let yourself be hurt, angry & sad! Just know there's lots of us out here who care!

[butterfly]

:) JJC I am glad I didn"t trigger you. I do not want to hurt anyone. butterfly

[jjc9497]

:) JJC I am glad I didn"t trigger you. I do not want to hurt anyone. butterfly

You didn't, and THANKS for sharing with us all. I like to hear from you.

[jjc9497]

As I read these stories, I find myself in tears for each one of you!

I suffered sexual abuse, and though most of the memories around it are fuzzy, I remember enough to cry with you! For me, it was a neighbor once, and a church deacon... that one went on for a year or more... I'm not sure. At one point, I did actually "forget" that it had all happened, but even then, my relationship to men was odd - I never trusted them, and though I was interested in dating, I didn't! One day, in college, a guy grabbed and kissed me (French) and the memories of the deacon's abuse came pouring in. I shoved him away and ran! LOL! Poor guy never knew what he did wrong!

The suffering didn't stop when the sexual abuse stopped, as you all have mentioned experiencing as well! It affected my relationships, my marriage, and even motherhood. It resurfaced over & over for no apparent reason, and if I dared mention it to another Christian, I was suddenly considered trash! And as I've mentioned in another thread, my so-called therapist blamed it all on me as well.

I have learned to state vaguely that I've been abused, and leave it at that. On occasion I get brave enough to mention the term "sexual abuse" or "molested", but I usually regret it!

jjc9497, you're right! Seminaries don't teach a pastor how to handle this subject! Hubby didn't learn when he was in serminary! And men, in general, only know what they hear from others (in other words, they learn to blame the woman). I say "in general" because I know there are men who DO understand, and DO care about the situation! Sadly, seminaries tend to be run by men!

Anyway, I just wanted to say I understand and I hurt for all you who have been through this. Also, though it's not as common, there are men who have been sexually abused as well! And seminaries aren't helping pastors prepare for that either.


Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier. I'm sorry that you went thru the abuse you did. I hope you have a found a place to talk about it and work thru it.

You are right that men are abused, too. I certainly didn't mean to exclude them. I think it is more unusual for them to talk much about it, but pastors DO need to be taught how to handle both men and women who have been abused, and especially when that abuse has occurred in the church!

[mirror]

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier. I'm sorry that you went thru the abuse you did. I hope you have a found a place to talk about it and work thru it.
I wish I could say I have, but though I can share a bit here and a bit there, the only time I really opened up was to a "christian therapist" who... well, let's just say she wasn't at all helpful and I'm not about to make that mistake again! :D

[Kerrin]

I wish I could say I have, but though I can share a bit here and a bit there, the only time I really opened up was to a "christian therapist" who... well, let's just say she wasn't at all helpful and I'm not about to make that mistake again! :D

jjc9497?? and Mirror??

Do you have a "professional" now to talk to?
You know a 'real' one! :rolleyes:
Not one of those chritstian ones like I had, that ,when you dig a little , have absolutly NO formal qualifications at all!
Trained by the system that abuses! So, they only compound the abuse and heap more guilt and shame on you ; at least that's what I went through for 7 years!

So, now as painful as it is, I have gone back to my secular counsellor ,and as bitter as I may "sound" ,I'm not really, I am healing ...........I believe!
I hope! :o

Love
Kerrin ;)

[jjc9497]

I actually am going to a Christian counselor now, but she is fully trained and licensed and has oversight. I am lucky to live in a large city with one of the largest Christian counseling groups in the country. I did see a secular counselor for EMDR, and my current counselor has not problem with using secular couselors and has actually encouraged me to go back to the secular for some more EMDR if needed. I feel really lucky to have a wide variety of Christian counselors to choose from here. Just wish I had a shrink who wasn't so creepy--but don't have to see him often.

[butterfly]

:D JJC your comment about your shrink made me smile. I had a few creeps also. I fired them. If they do not listen to me they are fired same with M.D. I am blessed with the person I go see for meds.. butterfly