What about this??

[Jubileesong]

I have a geniune question... I sure hope I phrase it right. Hopefully, most of you know me and you know my heart and I would NEVER say or ask anything with an alterior motive. I am simply wanting to understand.

First, let me say - for those of you who don't know... I spent 15 years in a very abusive cult/church. I've since left, began a road to healing and have finished a Masters in Counseling. Right now, I'm working for a non-profit agency helping deaf people. My goal, however, is to work with people who've had trauma or cult abuse in their lives. But - that's only HALF my goal...the other half is to work with the church and church ministries (everywhere the door opens) in hopes of sharing how to work with us (like, taking the beam out of their OWN eyes first and so on)...

So, I ask questions I ask in order to learn from you all what you would want. Although I do not believe that a believing, faithful Christian has to go to a church building to be saved - I do believe that it's important to have others Christian fellowship and, yes, teaching (I can give you scriptures on that if you want). HOWEVER, the church today - though I do believe it's in God's plan - is really messed up in some areas and I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to go to church.

However...when I hear things like, "no church does..." I have to wonder...because, I have found a VERY healthy church. Does it have faults? Absolutely. Still, it is very balanced. I have a wonderful pastor who qualifies nearly every statement he makes - or anyone else for that matter. For example, one night at a prayer meeting, one visiting pastor was speaking about abortion and how harmful that was and asking God to intervene on behalf of the many children who are aborted each year. Right after his prayer, my pastor got up and prayed equally for those in the church who had already had abortions that they would NOT feel any shame or guilt but that they would just be comforted by the love of God. He's always making room for those who don't fit the regular stereotype that many Christians seem to hold.

So, since I truly believe the church I go to is pretty healthy and balanced (as much as a group of humans can be) - then, for those of you who don't go to church - do you suppose that it IS possible that there is something good out there but that it's a sad fact that it's few and far between? Or, are you just pretty much convinced that there's nothing good around and that maybe even I'm decieved or something?

I do NOT ask this in a mean way - I really want to know... I want to know how bad it is because it's not been my experience and I want to know what reality is for others. I can't go out and tell others something that is only true for me - know what I mean? So, I need to know what you all think. You all are some of my greatest teachers. I don't always agree - but I ALWAYS respect your views and they are sooooooo helpful.

Further telling me what you DON'T like and don't agree with will help me so that I can let those I teach know what they're doing wrong - and what they're doing right. I don't believe any of us were created as islands left to fend for ourselves - but sometimes, I sure do believe that, for some, it seems almost safer that way - and I want to know why that is.

The Christian church of America needs to do a better job as a whole... Thanks for your input!!!

Hannah

[Oopsie Daisey]

Hi Hannah, I am not at all shy about stating an opinion and I applaud you for doing what you are doing and what you want to do.

Hannah, I am a pastors daughter and I will tell you that I have been in the position of the pastors home as well as the congregation member and from both perspectives, just the availability will be a blessing. Often it is felt rather lopsided though if the church provides the counselor because it is like if your on their payroll then it is you automatically are going to be concerned where your next dime is from ...however, if you are not on church payroll, then there are some of us who are threatened by the finances that we no longer have now that the church ate them up. I do believe in attending church....absolutely believe in it.

Because of the stigma I have attached to Mental Health and counseling, I have allowed myself to be counseled inside the church with a counselor not a paid employee of the church. I will not go to an agency or an office because of what it means in this hometown so I would wager a bet that it is going to be a territorial thing for you when you actually counsel.

If I go to my parents home in another state, it is totally acceptable for everyone to have a counselor. It is so bizarre! And it is more acceptable to have an outside office than an office in the church.

When the time came for me to discuss my stuff, I always felt a lot easier if I were just being somewhere else. I was always terrified that someone could hear through the doors or the walls or that when a car pulled up to the church not knowing a counseling session was going on then I knew that they knew I was in counseling and I knew who the next appointment was and it was uncomfortable too.... However the flip side of that was, all of us that had the counselor all agreed the counselor was excellent and we felt like we were not quite as isolated so that was a plus in my case.

SO my preference would be to hold it in the church. My counselor had it both ways at one point and then he gave up the overhead of an office and came and borrowed a church office and made contribution to the church, not that he made anything from any of us.
He done that in a couple of different churches before he left the area.

He left to pastor. Which was our loss and his answered prayer.

I wonder if he thinks that now?

Well thanks for asking Hannah.

Melanie

[Florence]

Hi Hannah,

Yes, I think there are healthy churches - but healthy churches aren't necessarily churches that do everything right all of the time. I think part of what makes a church healthy is the ability of every person to acknowledge that they have failures and frailties, to be able to easily ask for and extend grace and forgiveness, reconciliation and restoration. I think it is very rare to find a place where it is normal to hear things like, "Wow, I really handled that poorly. I am so sorry. Please forgive me. What can we do to fix this and start serving the Lord together again?"

I have always been one of the first to raise my hand and say "I'm sorry I didn't do that as well as I should have" and what I found is that I then opened myself up to take the entire blame. No one else wanted to admit that they held some responsibility, but they were sure anxious to agree with me that I was the problem.

I know that if people had simply said, "You know, I messed up, too, and I am so sorry," and then had joined me in accepting and extending the unlimited grace of God, I would not be experiencing the wounding and pain that I am right now. Instead, they act as though they are perfect and have not done anything wrong and I am ostrasized.

That kind of self-righteousness can sneak into a church without anyone really realizing it unless they happen to be the one made the scape-goat. I know in my church, very few people would ever believe that the leadership would be saying and doing to me what they have done. They will have to experience it themselves before they believe it.

Pray that your pastor and other leadership remain humble and grace-full. Be watchful, be vigilant . . .

Florence

[Oopsie Daisey]

WOW talk about problems reading and comprehending.... or just thinking you heard what you read and all the sudden you see it in a different light that would be me. I just read Florence's response to Hannah and I realized that I like what she said but I wondered why I couldn't connect it to what Hannah said and so I went back and read your post over Hannah and boy do I apologize for my strange response.

I am so embarrassed!!!! :o Hiding in real embarassment. I don't know why I answered my post the other way. I feel really embarrassed. :eek: Mortified to see what I said and what your request was. How embarrassing. :confused: I do this in conversations too and I don't know why.

Anyway, moving right along and getting to your point... I don't know if it exists out here or not. I mean I think of my father's churches that he has pastored and while there was not the perfect congregation, nor was he the perfect pastor, there were far more favorable places that he has pastored then others. I see his churches and I look at people getting mad all the time and I realize that I didn't want to be one of those people and so I took the stuff I took for years and wouldn't move out of it and it cost me so much. I walked into my church severely injured and vulnerable and it was further complicated by the long term effects of trying to fix me and many others .... and like Florence, I always volunteer I am guilty because I know what it is like to have a broken dad and that is what I done in my church.

But getting back to your question, I have tried several churches and I don't believe there will ever be a perfect church nor a perfect pastor nor the perfect congregation. Is there something doable for me? I don't know. I am so injured that I am defensive, ready to fight over anything rather than be that doormat again that almost killed me and like Florence, the most essential thing to do is to forgive and to love and I think that is where I am having a hard time, is that I can forgive but that doesn't mean I am healed inside and it doesn't take away the consequences and so for me it is hard to believe tha I will find a church I can worship in ever again. I am devestated and I try so hard to heal and let it go and every time I stand up, I get knocked down again.

Did I hit the subject this time? I wanted to. I don't mean to ramble.
Melanie

[Jerry]

Dear Hannah,,,,,
No Church is "Perfect"....Only once in my life did I find a "Perfect Church",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then I joined it and ruined it!!! :rolleyes:
Love Jerry
P.S.,,,,,,,,Nobody never or always anything :D

[Jubileesong]

Hey, Melanie - don't beat yourself up so much! I liked both of your responses. I might not have been asking the question you answered in one of them at THAT time, but I sure have asked it in the past and it's good insight and knowledge! :0)

It is tough to counsel within the church and that's definitely something I'm going to be working on and looking into and praying about!

It's also true that it would sure be better if people would be able to accept some responsibility for their actions...not just scapegoat everyone else.

Also...I TOTALLY agree that it is crucial AT SOME POINT to forgive a person or circumstance and love them...however, there is a PROCESS to getting to that place. Let me throw this out to you...and it does refer to scripture so if that bothers you, just skip this part...

At one point in the Gospel, Jesus was seen coming up over the Mt of Olives and looking down over Jerusalem. He cried over them and said that he would have loved to take them in and care for them but that they would not let Him. Then, shortly after that, He was facing crucifiction by those same people he was crying over previously... Between the time of His coming up over the Mt. of Olives and the time He yelled out on the cross, "Father, forgive them..." He had that time in the garden where He prayed not once, not twice, but at least THREE times - to the point of sweating blood, that what he was going to face would be taken from Him. A LOT happened before He EVER got to the place of forgiveness... He pointed to the problem (they wouldn't accept Him), He grieved it (at the garden) and then He finally looked at them with empathy and compassion realizing that they were blind and THEN He was able to ask for their forgiveness....

So...do you suppose that if the creator of the Universe needed to go through a process to forgive that it might be possible that we would, too? I mean, it may seem like I'm pulling a little more out of there than is explicitly said - but there's definitely something connecting the time in the garden with the prayer He prayed on the cross... There were many times He preached to people who didn't hear Him and He didn't chase them down and try to force them to believe...nor did He ask His father to forgive them...Not until the end... It's a thought, anyway.

So, try not to be so hard on yourself, ok? Walk the walk...one day at a time.

Take care,

Hannah