Can I ask a question? ***Possible triggers***

[Hesed]

***Possible triggers ***





Sorry, this is one of my triggers because it's part of my history that I've accidentally said the wrong thing and then got screamed at, sworn at and sometimes hit. I'm nervous now (although obviously no-one can hit me!)

I don't understand how the phrase "Please don't give up on church" constitues an "order" or a "command" or an abuse of authority.

Thanks for answering.

[Voyager]

I don't see anything wrong with that phrase Hesed. You obviously are a very caring and compassionate person, and I sense no abuse coming from you in any way.

Let's face it, a lot of people here were horribly abused in churches. To use an analogy, your phrase could be compared to someone saying "don't give up on men" on a rape victim forum. There would be nothing wrong with that statement, however some women may tell you that they have given up on men altogether and that they don't want to be told what to do.

I personally have given up on church for now. However, I am open to the idea of finding a good one someday, so I do not take offense at your suggestion.

Hope that helps.

:cool:

[Hesed]

I personally have given up on church for now. However, I am open to the idea of finding a good one someday, so I do not take offense at your suggestion.

Thanks for the explanation, Voyager. I think I understand.

For the record, I personally have no problem with someone who does not want to go to church. I can totally understand it and I also think that there are people who probably need to stay away from church, be it temporarily or forever.

[butterfly]

HI HESED, :) WHEN SOMEONE SAYS " PLEASE DON"T GIVE UP ON CHURCH" FOR ME RIGHT AFTER THAT COMES THE ABUSE. BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE I HAD NOW I TRANSLATE THE SAYING AS." SOMEBODY TELLING ME NOT TO GIVE UP ON CHURCH WHAT YOU ARE GOING THRU CAN"T BE THAT BAD" OR " YOU SHOULD GO TO CHURCH SOMEWHERE". I HAD ALOT OF PEOPLE TELLING ME I NEEDED TO BE IN CHURCH. IF I LOVED THE LORD I WOULD BE THERE. WHICH = TO ME IS I WAS BEING JUDGED WHEN THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH ME. DID YOU WRITE A THREAD OR POST WITH THAT SAYING? I THOUGHT I READ THAT SOMEWHERE. WHAT I RECALL WAS I SAW THAT THEN I SAID ITS OK ITS MENT FOR ENCOURGEMENT. I LIKE TO READ YOUR POST AND THREADS HESED I DID NOT TAKE THAT PHARSE AS TELLING ME WHAT TO DO.[[[HESED]]] :) :) butterfly

[molehills]

For me the phrase was really discouraging because I just couldn't do church. I wanted to do church, pretty desperately, but it just sent me into a terror that our family couldn't afford. My husband quit taking me until I got somewhat over it. I was already pressuring myself to keep at it with church, if someone said that it just doubled the stress I was already feeling.

[jane]

Hesed,


I just need to be clear so that I don't misunderstand or create more misunderstanding. Are you referring to Minister Mikes note that said to find a church where Jesus is loving or something like that?


If that is the case,
I didn't read "Please don't give up on church". If I read that, I wouldn't have reacted. The sentence, please don't give up on church indicates that the person saying it feels compassion for the church and bad that I may not be in one. I wouldn't be offended by such a statement.

What I read was an order to not do this, do this, etc.... No one asked me WHY I was hurting they assumed that I was not in church, was blaming Jesus for the spiritual abuse (which I don't) and needed to "get over it"

In my last church I heard a lot of people be told to JUST GET OVER IT-- or that Satan is the cause of every negative in our lives....

To me that is over spiritualizing what people chose to do and doesn't hold them accountable.

The message was too much like, 'you're holding onto offenses wrongly" I think we talked before about how sometimes in abused churches they hold victims more accountable for "holding on to offenses" and not holding accountable the people committing abuses in the name of Jesus.

The post was also offensive to me because in our church there was "pastor worship" everyone wanted his approval, his attention etc... to a point of idoltry. I see people giving too much leverage to the title. The five fold ministry talks about 5 gifts; not one is more valuable than another. In fact Jesus, God in human form, came as a servant. Interesting that our church leaders often come to be served.

I have a gift of teaching. Do I sign my posts with that title? When I see someone sign their name with Minister in front of it, it is giving me a message. It is telling me that he wants validity for what he is saying-- (like someone telling me about my teeth and then telling me that they are a dentist- you take their word for what they are saying with more value than someone who is telling you about your teeth but they are a garbage collector..) So in essence, what he is saying about spiritual matters is supposed to be more valid because as a minister, he is an expert. HE ALSO MADE HIS NAME AND TITLE IN CAPITAL LETTERS AND MUCH LARGER THAN THE POST>

By putting his name with a title he is also putting me in my place in reference to him.


If you're not talking about Minister Mikes post, please delete my entire response. You'll have to clarify for me what then you are referring to because I don't find that phrase, "please don't give up on church" offensive.

Jane

[jane]

Hesed,

Your post makes me think of something that came up for me this weekend.

ANGER is hard for us all, isn't it?

I can not imagen anyone attacking you here like what you described. I have always enjoyed your posts, your thoughts and your honest humility.

Could our anger at Minister Mike have triggered you? My own anger triggered me. I felt ashamed at what I wrote and then did some thinking. I am ok with what I wrote. I was being myself; angry.

I have never been allowed to be angry. As a little girl, it wasn't "ladylike" as an adult, it still wasn't. As a christian, anger didn't show grace, mercy and love. It was definitly a sin.

Well, Jesus was angry- threw some tables if I remember correctly.

I was really angry at that post. I needed to come here for some peace and reassurance. I was feeling vulnerable, lonely and stressed. The week was a rough one. Mostly because of medical issues with my son Caleb and financial issues because of the things that he needs to help his medical issues. Stir in the pot a Friday night gathering, my teenager having a fight with his football coach and walking off of the team (next year is his senior year); his SAT scores just came in; his final exams start next week; conversations with friends from the church--- and so on. I really needed something from here...

and then I read, "GO DO THIS< DON"T DO THIS AND SATAN THIS AND>YOU NEED TO DO>>>>"

Yeah, I was angry. My peace that I get from the love and compassion of this group was robbed. The encouragement that I needed wasn't there. Instead was this post big in my face reminding me about how worthless I am. That is what those triggering words do to my self esteem. SO with all the strength and rage I wanted the post and the man writing it to go away. The screaming that you read in my posts was a defensive, self presevation reaction. I didn't want to be treated like that and with what ever was left in me; I was screaming out to stay alive.

Spiritual abuse is like rape. And when another attacker comes; even if he means well or doesn't plan to rape you but to only kiss you against your will--- your reactions are to protect yourself as if they were the first attacker.

I hope I am explaining myself to you the way I intend. I just want to be honest with you. Anger is difficult for me. This time it felt really good to stand up and say, GET OUT OF MY FACE< YOU ARE HURTING ME AND IT IS NOT ALLOWED>

love ya,

Jane

[Kerrin]

:mad:
I make no apologies for my anger!!
I was triggered and I re-acted!!

I ,too as little girl was told to keep her mouth shut ,( and if that meant medicating me ,well that's what happened), and then I lived 14 years in an abusive marriage only to come out and fall into an abusive church that "raped" me!! of my identity and my self worth .........and much more.) :(


I make my peace with God each moment of the day as the Holy Spirit leads me.
I WILL NOT ,AGAIN BE SHAMED INTO 'FEELING' BAD about VERY REAL THINGS (ABUSIVE THINGS), THAT HAPPENED TO ME.

That's what "minister Mike has done, maybe ,inadvertantly, not only 'triggered ' many ,but NOW people are feeling ashamed!!!

NO,NO, NO!!! :mad:

NOW, if I am ANGRY, I will have a voice!!!!

If I'm wrong I will repent , BUT IWILL NOT BE SHAMED AGAIN !!!

God bless you Hesed, I don't mean to minimise what you are saying ,but don't feel bad for the very reasons you came here :( :o

Love
Kerrin ;)

[Hesed]

Hesed,


I just need to be clear so that I don't misunderstand or create more misunderstanding. Are you referring to Minister Mikes note that said to find a church where Jesus is loving or something like that?

Jane:

Thanks for your answers. Yes, it was a question about Minister Mike's post. It's interesting what triggers people and the responses to it were definitely the triggers for me. My "response trigger" came from home where my mother would often explode for no reason (actually still does, in milder ways now that she's elderly and I'm middle aged, but all that is a whole different, longer, story!). Often she would explain that she was angry at me for having said a certain word, or a certain phrase or said it "in the wrong tone of voice".

When I saw the post, my reaction to it was "What a stupid thing to post to this newsgroup! How completely insensitive." I can totally understand why the post was hurtful and inappropriate. But I did think that people were saying that the sentence "Please don't give up on church" was an "order".

Sorry, that's all "my stuff". Really, I think we all agree that the post was hurtful and inappropriate at best. At worst, perhaps, it might have been some sick person trying to get a rise.

[Hesed]

NOW, if I am ANGRY, I will have a voice!!!!

If I'm wrong I will repent , BUT IWILL NOT BE SHAMED AGAIN !!![/B]

God bless you Hesed, I don't mean to minimise what you are saying ,but don't feel bad for the very reasons you came here :( :o

Love
Kerrin ;)

Kerrin:

I did not ask or "order" you to not be angry. I asked a question and I warned that it might trigger! :( :( :(

[Florence]

It's interesting what triggers people and the responses to it were definitely the triggers for me. My "response trigger" came from home where my mother would often explode for no reason (actually still does, in milder ways now that she's elderly and I'm middle aged, but all that is a whole different, longer, story!). Often she would explain that she was angry at me for having said a certain word, or a certain phrase or said it "in the wrong tone of voice".

.

The place I just resigned from is filled with people who are looking for a reason to be angry. Every time they darkened the door, it was with a critical eye to see what they could rage about that week. The emails, the phone calls, the anonymous notes were nothing short of vicious and venomous and they always blamed someone else for their anger - just as Hesed's mother "would often explode . . . at [Hesed] for having said a certain word, or a certain phrase or said it 'in the wrong tone of voice.'"

Want to know what makes me angry? Well, I'll tell you anyway. It's when people blame others for their anger. I cannot make you angry. Hesed cannot make you angry. "Minister Mike" cannot make you angry. Only you can make the choice to be angry.

Does that make your anger wrong? No, absolutely not. If you are triggered, anger away! Rant, rave, scream, cry, shake your fist and stomp your feet. But own it.

How much different would Hesed's life be if "mom" had simply owned her anger instead of blaming Hesed for it? Maybe Hesed did say something triggering and in the wrong tone of voice. Did blaming and shaming help or hurt? Would it have been better for "mom" to rationally explain that certain words or phrases or the wrong tone of voice is hurtful instead of responding in what was probably an even more hurtful manner?

We all understand that hurt people hurt people and often when we are angry, it is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die from it. I see it as perpetrating the very same abuse that I have been inundated with.

Florence

[jane]

Florence,

I keep reading, re reading this post. I keep double checking to see if I am misreading it.


Want to know what makes me angry? Well, I'll tell you anyway. It's when people blame others for their anger.

this is a contradiction. People who blame others makes you angry- and you are blaming those people who do that for making you angry.



We all understand that hurt people hurt people

this in my opinion is an over used line. Speaking up against someone is not going out of anyone's way to hurt someone.


You know what, I don't think you and I ever really are going to get along. I have decided to block. My hope is that I will not feel attacked by your posts any longer. It seems to me that since I misquoted you when I didn't know how to use the forum things yet, you have put in digs consistently. My hope is that with this block, you can go on and heal and so can I.

agreeing to disagree with you and seriously not appreciating your post that people go around looking for anyone to be angry at....

Jane

[bad girl]

I was out of town when Mike posted, but went back and read them and they triggered me also. I felt that nauseous feeling that reminds me of all those people trying to fix me. :mad:
Pat

[Hesed]

Can I just make clear here that was not trying to say anything along the lines of "people shouldn't be upset by the post".

I genuinely was asking a question about a specific phrase.

I would never tell anyone how to think or how to feel.

[Florence]

I considered not responding to this post just as I don't often respond to posts that are volatile. But, since this one was a personal attack that Jane has chosen to take into a public forum without first approaching me privately or, at the very least, in a spirit of seeking clarification or reconciliation, I believe she has given me no option but to respond publicly as well.


Florence,

[QUOTE]I keep reading, re reading this post. I keep double checking to see if I am misreading it.




this is a contradiction. People who blame others makes you angry- and you are blaming those people who do that for making you angry.


No, this is not what I said. I said, "When" people blame others", NOT "People who" blame others." There IS a difference. I also said "I" get angry. I DID NOT say "You" make me angry. In fact, I never named any names or quoted anyone specifically except Hesed, so, yes, Jane was misreading my post. But she won't allow me to explain or clarify or respond because she says she has blocked me. Am I angry about that? No. It's her choice.


this in my opinion is an over used line. Speaking up against someone is not going out of anyone's way to hurt someone.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Too bad Jane's not willing to let me explain this one either.

You know what, I don't think you and I ever really are going to get along. I have decided to block. My hope is that I will not feel attacked by your posts any longer. It seems to me that since I misquoted you when I didn't know how to use the forum things yet, you have put in digs consistently.

I have posted here so seldom in the past several months and mostly only about the circumstances surrounding my resignation that I would have to ask that Jane substantiate this claim. One of the things I learned from the abuse that I have suffered is that lots of "claims" can be made but when asked for specifics (dates, quotes, evidence, proof) the answer would always be "You know what I'm talking about - I don't owe you an explanation." Well, if Jane was willing to (which she is not since she has blocked me) she would PM me (because according to Matthew 18 that is the appropriate first step) and in a spirit of love she could explain to me just how I have offended her and we could work toward reconciliation.

My hope is that with this block, you can go on and heal and so can I.


Okay, Jane, go ahead and take your toys and go home. I won't allow you to intimidate me this way - I've healed enough to find it amusing.

agreeing to disagree with you and seriously not appreciating your post that people go around looking for anyone to be angry at....

Jane
I haven't "agreed to disagree" at all - but I do find it fascinating that for a place where we're all supposed to be able to share whatever is on our hearts, that is not truly the case. Jane made my point - some people come here just looking for things to be angry about and yes, Jane has expressed a great deal of anger on this forum - toward me and toward many others. That's okay. Just know that I'm not angry. I choose not to be. In fact, I'm LOL. Too bad Jane will never know that, either.

Florence

[jane]

Hesed,

I never felt like you were saying that we shouldn't post but thankyou for saying so anyway :)



Jane

[jane]

Pat,

thanks for saying so. Sometimes it helps to hear others felt similar--so often I can second guess myself...

Jane

[Jerry]

Dear Hessed,,,
I left this thread go for a reason,,,,,,,,we question for a reason,,,,we are all on a quest for truth,,,,,we search for truth under every rock,,,,,in every nook,,,,,,in every possiable place,,,,,,,and where do we find it?????????,,,,,,,right on the surface..................truth is,,,,,,,,,,,,Love does not exclude,,,,,,it embraces,,,,and causes it's object to bloom ;)
Love Jerry

[Hesed]

Hesed,

I never felt like you were saying that we shouldn't post but thankyou for saying so anyway :)

Jane

Thanks for your thanks too.

[Hesed]

Dear Hessed,,,
I left this thread go for a reason,,,,,,,,we question for a reason,,,,we are all on a quest for truth,,,,,we search for truth under every rock,,,,,in every nook,,,,,,in every possiable place,,,,,,,and where do we find it?????????,,,,,,,right on the surface..................truth is,,,,,,,,,,,,Love does not exclude,,,,,,it embraces,,,,and causes it's object to bloom ;)
Love Jerry

Jerry, I have absolutely no idea what this post means. That is said in a matter-of-fact tone of voice and with the assumption of your goodwill.