Neil Anderson: Addiction Recovery

[Kerrin]

After reading ,and responding somwhat hastily to Reg's post, I went back to one of Neil Anderson's books in "The Bondage Breaker" series.

I was going to throw them out because The Vicar had used a lot of his works in his 'spiritual warfare" teachings Of which I was subjucted to enormous abuse!
( Lots of references made to Mr Andersons works, which I dilgently read........)

Re- reading with "fresh" eyes he does make sense.
in his introduction alone, i.e, " Telling a person why he or she drinks may only result in his or her saying, "You're right - do you want to drink with me?" I have no desire to help anyone just cope with addiction." (end of quote!)

I DO struggle with the ,"Dying To self " : this is popular teaching in most Churches,and Mr Anderson incorporates into his book and in his , "Overcomer's Covenant In Christ", at the end of the book.


If any one can explain THAT more simply to me I would be greatful because ,the way it's been shoved down my throat ; the meaning is that I am a selfish ,rotten sinner who MUST confess every day and never be allowed to "be me" or enjoy my life! :confused:

So Reg, anyone????
Please ,if you can explain to me what "dying to self" ACTUALLY means!
I don't want to feel guilty anymore.
Again, I'm sure, now having re-read this; Mr Anderson would NOT approve of his books being used to abuse people by twisting his words.

Thanks
love,
Kerrin ;) ( :confused: )

[Hesed]

I'll take a stab at it. But I need to explain some underlying theology first.

I believe that human beings have two qualities that are fundamental to our nature. One quality - the second one - is our "original sin" nature. The other quality - which is the first one - is that we were created in the Image of God. God created male and female and pronounced them both "Good". I believe that original sin marred the image of God in us but that it did not destroy the image of God. Original sin did not destroy our ability to do good or our ability to choose good; however, it did give us the ability to choose evil.

So, I believe there are two kinds of "self". A "self" that wants to sin and a "self" that wants to do good. The "self" that wants to do good is what God intended for us from the beginning. It's the "self" that he created in his image. There is another kind of "self"; that's the "self" that is "selfish". The "self" that says "Sure I could share, but I'm going to grab everything for myself." The self that says "Sure I could choose to do the right thing and defend this person against another who is bullying him, but frankly, I can't be bothered."

We are to die to the self that chooses to do what is wrong or that does not choose to do what is right. We are to live - with God's help and grace - for the self that chooses to do good, the self that chooses to follow God's will.

"Dying to self" is not about obliterating our identity. It is about being born and reborn into the "good self" so that the "bad self" becomes less and less.

I know you didn't ask this, but I want to add it because I think this is closely related. The command to "take up our cross and follow Jesus" is similar. It does not mean "Every time you have a choice to make, choose the thing that makes you suffer." It means, "Stand up for what is right and Godly, even if doing so will cause you suffering". These are very different things.

I hope that's helpful?

[Kerrin]

"Dying to self" is not about obliterating our identity. It is about being born and reborn into the "good self" so that the "bad self" becomes less and less.

I know you didn't ask this, but I want to add it because I think this is closely related. The command to "take up our cross and follow Jesus" is similar. It does not mean "Every time you have a choice to make, choose the thing that makes you suffer." It means, "Stand up for what is right and Godly, even if doing so will cause you suffering". These are very different things.

I hope that's helpful?[/QUOTE]

:)
Thank you for taking a "stab at it"!
ThisI think ,is what I wanted clarified.

My "old" church made me "feel" ( and I did over time ), had to lose MY identity!
I WAS no longer "Kerrin:!

NOW ,I am becoming "ME" again, (such freedom and peace.) ;)
At the same time there are the confusing times ,like now about standing up for what I believe ,having been taught It's "my flesh" and it needs "shutting Up"! :confused:

I hope everyone will continue to debate this ,because even if it is a trigger, or not, it's important stuff that our Churches are using to manipulate us.

So, please keep talking, discussing, debating .........I continually learn from you all :)

Love,
Kerrin ;)

If we don't discuss it ,we will never be able to discern the truth for us.

[Hesed]

I don't know how to say strongly enough that there is nothing in the bible that suggests that God calls his follwers to lose our identity.

There are two books that I think might be helpful for a lot of people here. I know that I keep reading them from time to time. One is:

12 "Christian" beliefs that Can Drive you Crazy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310494915/qid=1118138905/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-5102435-0430269?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) The first assumption that can drive you crazy is "It's selfish to have my needs met." This book is written in plain, down-to-earth language and Cloud and Townsend come from a "bible believing" evangelical background.

Another good book, perhaps a bit less easy to read but still not difficult is: Self-Esteem: the cross and Christian confidence (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158134371X/qid=1118139287/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-5102435-0430269?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) Alister McGrath is one of the most respected evangelical theologians in the UK today and his wife (the co-author) is a Christian counsellor. This book makes clear the difference between the sin of pride and the necessary quality of self-esteem. I think it partly aims to debunk the sermons that I know I've heard to the effect of "All this emphasis on self-esteem these days is nothing more than the sin of pride and the devil working in our society."

[Hesed]

NOW ,I am becoming "ME" again, (such freedom and peace.) ;)
At the same time there are the confusing times ,like now about standing up for what I believe ,having been taught It's "my flesh" and it needs "shutting Up"! :confused:

I hope it's OK to double-post here. I'm doing it because it's neater.

First, I think it's a good sign that you feel freedom and peace in being yourself.

Secondly, can I share with you some benchmarks that I find helpful? I was originally taught these guidelines as a way of knowing if something is prophetic, but I find it's useful in a number of different circumstances, particularly in discerning God's will.

First, it must be in line with the word of God and the commandments of God as passed down in scripture. So, "God told me to kill that person" automatically fails that test.

Secondly, it must point to God and give glory to God. In my view, this theology of "You're under my covering" fails that test and effectively turns the pastor into God.

Thirdly, it must result in good spiritual fruits. Galatians 5:19-23 are very good guidelines to use in discerning the outcome of any action or teaching.

Fourthly, it must build up the people of God.

Anything that is "neutral" to any of these things falls outside of God's remit. I say this because I think that there are people who go around acting like they are so in touch with God that God validates all their preferences like what to eat for dinner or which television show to watch. This can make another person insecure and feeling like "Gee, my spouse is so in touch with God and God wants us to watch Big Brother tonight, so any preference I might have about TV watching is invalid." As far as I'm concerned, this is just using God as a bullying tactic. God does not speak to people for the purposes of endorsing their preferences. God speaks to people for the purposes of advancing his Kingdom.

[Kerrin]

:rolleyes: :confused:
All Four points you make Hesed, are in line with the teachings of my old Church.

I like the clarity of the sin of pride and ,the difference in just having healthy self esteem.'

Every time I "tried" to speak up about something I wanted or felt ( either within my marriage or the Church), I was told I needed to repent of my 'pride', seek God's Will ,and Submit all over again (To the Vicar /or office of Vicar!!).

I have no problem seeking God's Will.
I find now, more often than not, HE will wake me up in the wee small hours to deal with any sin per se` ,I may have in my life.

I guess it's the self esteem thing and trusting that still quiet voice.
Thanks for the references, I have the First book but not the second one you mention , but I will look for it.


Thank you.
I can never read enough, it's a never-ending journey .
Love
Kerrin ;)

[Katie]

Kerrin,

I think that the "dying to self" can be twisted into a type of performance. It's important to remember that God's love and acceptance for us is free and not based in any way upon our worthiness.

I would much rather allow the Holy Spirit to do a transforming work of grace in my life while I focus on learning to live in relationship with God who loves me freely. In the end, all of my self-efforts can do nothing to make God love me more than He already does.

The following has been helpful to me:

http://www.lifestream.org/pdf/HeLovesMe.pdf

This is a book online.

Trusting that God is already at work in you,
Katie

[Jerry]

Dear Kerrin,,,,
I can't describe what "Dieing to Self" is,,,,,but I think I know how it feels.There are moments when we feel that something else is going on,something we knew a long time ago,,,,,as though there were once a time when we knew what is behind it all but have forgotton......Sometimes when I wake from a dream it seems like I am almost remembering it,or I hear it in the resperation of waves,or see it in the stars when they are so heavy they are all you can look at,or during that moment of stillness when your car is skidding sideways off the road.My whole life I have been returning to that sence of familiarity.The opposite of a nameless fear.Sometimes it feels like I am looking down at myself,vaguely recalling that all this shouldn't be taken too seriously,,,,a certain conviction that I am not that thing walking around down there ;)
Love Jerry

[Kerrin]

Wow, it's not as simple as those three little words is it?

Thank you all again for much to consider.

Love
Kerrin ;)

[Hesed]

The following has been helpful to me:

http://www.lifestream.org/pdf/HeLovesMe.pdf

This is a book online.



Katie: I've only just dipped into this book, but it looks good and I've saved it. I totally agree with what the author has to say about loving God because God is good and not because we are threatened with hell. I'll still read it with a critical eye (sorry, no distrust in you but been burnt too many times!), but it looks good to me so far. Thanks for the pointer.

[Kerrin]

I think that the "dying to self" can be twisted into a type of performance. It's important to remember that God's love and acceptance for us is free and not based in any way upon our worthiness.
I would much rather allow the Holy Spirit to do a transforming work of grace in my life while I focus on learning to live in relationship with God who loves me freely. In the end, all of my self-efforts can do nothing to make God love me more than He already does.
Trusting that God is already at work in you,
Katie[/QUOTE]

:)
Thank you Katie,
Very well said!
I just need to "believe" it and "feel" it ..........as you say, allow the Holy Spirit to do what is required rather than me always striving.
Such a hard habit/addiction to break!! :(

:confused: WHY is it so hard to just trust HIM!!!!???? ( :mad: at me!) :eek:

This past few weeks and my "job fiasco" has taught me more than I fully realise yet. :o

And Jerry ,how very profound, gonna have to hang on to those "pearls" for a while! :)

Love
Kerrin ;)