The Hurricane and GOD?

[Oopsie Daisey]

This couple I met several years ago have emailed me and let me know on no uncertain terms that I should be praying nonstop because this storm is not of GOD that satan is the prince of the air and therefore is the winds and that I needed to be praying for the people because in the words fo the person...

quoting my email:
Jesus said "I pray for those whom YOU (the Father) gave me, and those who will hear them, and follow your Word: but I do not pray for the world (unrighteous people). John 17:8-10 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." '
End of quote

But then my mind reels a thousand times over the scripture in Romans where Jesus is seated at the right hand of the father making intercession. I thought Jesus came to seek and to save those which were lost? I connected up with these people when I was going through some of my first big rounds with the church over 4 years ago and they are talking about things in the celestial and terrestial and half the time I do not understand but today I think I have the gist of it.


I liked Tim and Mike's answer to the other forum to NACR and I lost the URL so I can't even get that because it had good material. I wanted to hang on to it. I don't like it when I get adamant letters telling me what I need to believe. This is really bothering me.


I have received three emails from this couple this morning. It bugs me
Melanie

[Voyager]

I don't think the hurricane is of God or of satan. I think it's just a freak of nature. That's my belief, but I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've found a lot of comfort believing that most things that happen in life are not spiritual at all. It used to make me very tormented believing that things had to be of God or of the devil. No one ever seems to know if God did it or the devil did it, and that can become the source of a lot of confusion. Since I haven't been spiritualizing everything in my life, I am now enjoying a lot more peace and a lot less stress.

:cool:

[Oopsie Daisey]

Mmm, I guess I always believed that everything under the sun was created by God and God was all powerful and in total control, unlike us humans. Interesting Voyager. God Bless and have a good day. I think I was more worried about the concept that Jesus didn't prayer for the world...after I stopped and thought about it.


Have a good day!

[Voyager]

Melanie,

I used to think the same thing as you do. The problem I have with thinking that God is in total control of everything is when we see mass destruction by forces of nature. It's hard for me to fathom that a good God would send a hurricane to Haiti and cause hundreds of thousands of people to lose their homes and be left with no food or water, getting sunburned because they have no shelter. If satan did it, then God could stop it if He was in control. So, for me to believe that God is good, I have to believe that it was just an act of nature with no spiritual implications whatsoever.

When I used to believe that God was in full control of my life, I was always disappointed. When things went bad, I felt like God was punishing me. When things went good, it made me feel like God loved me. I guess the real question is - does God love us based on our performance, or does He love us for who we are? If our acceptance by God is based on our performance, then in that case we should expect the occasional hurricane, car wreck, or bout of cancer to punish us when we do wrong. If our acceptance by God is based on the unconditional love that Jesus provided for us, then I would just chalk up the problems in life as par for the course in an imperfect world.

:cool:

[Oopsie Daisey]

Melanie,

I used to think the same thing as you do. The problem I have with thinking that God is in total control of everything is when we see mass destruction by forces of nature. It's hard for me to fathom that a good God would send a hurricane to Haiti and cause hundreds of thousands of people to lose their homes and be left with no food or water, getting sunburned because they have no shelter. If satan did it, then God could stop it if He was in control. So, for me to believe that God is good, I have to believe that it was just an act of nature with no spiritual implications whatsoever.

:cool:
Okay Voyager, I accept your opinion but I do have a question for you. How do you explain the reason why Noah had to build an ark if God wouldn't send the weather increments? I just have to take everything into consideration before I come to my conclusion and your tossing out some good things which cause me to think of the things that will give me my belief system.... When God sent the "Flood" he told Noah to take only his family and then there was a time of Sodom and Gomorah and then I can think of other things that would seem 'not in God's character' if he were just a nice God. Do you see what I am saying?

[Doug64]

I basically see things as Voyager does. God certainly can send a storm (Noah) or other calamities (Sodom and Gomorra), but I don't think He is daily thinking...
"There are some ungodly folks in Florida so I'm going to send 4 hurricanes this year to wake them up."

I also USED to think everything was either of God or Satan. But I think the verse that talks about time and chance happening to all clears a lot of this up.

God appears to operate differently when dealing directly with a nation than at other times.

Doug :)

[Emerging]

(((Melanie!!!))) Great to see you back!!

As for the idea of all these hurricanes being related to God, ... well, it sure fits with what I was taught about the whole OT idea of people receiving "warnings" and then "consequences" from God when they do wrong. ... so... are these hurricanes onsequences ... or just warnings? :eek:

I for one cannot throw out that possibility of God having a role in then after like you said, The Flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Israelites wandering around for 40 years after they got really corrupted, .... because the Bible is a true record of God's dealings with the people back then, isn't it? And if it's also true that He's "unchanging" ... then wouldn't He do the same things today that He did back then?

And no matter how much any of us loves our children, when our children *badly* mess up, the consequences for that are going to be *severe* ... and the only thing I've heard of are the election irregularities there, so is that "serious" in His book or are there more reasons He'd be putting the smackdown on Florida that we just don't hear much about?

Are droughts and rampant forest fires and destructive quakes and economic downturns and etc. warnings and/or consequences, too? Well, according to the Bible they are .... and IMHO, the biggest reason Evil doesn't want us to even think that, let alone maybe believe it, is because Evil wants everyone else to become really messed up, too ... so of course Evil is going to totally minimize the impact of our poorer choices in its efforts to draw us over to its way of thinking. Because from what I remember the Bible always says Behave or else! ... and evil says Eat drink and be merry, no problem ..... something I've fallen prey to myself .... perhaps we all do at one time or another?

Because we do live in a fallen world and I for one see soooo much corruption of spirit all around no matter who no matter where. So why would one state be getting it so hard and not another? Well, we've taken turns with droughts in recent years, huge forest fires etc ... the whole timing thing is way beyond me but I guess this is where I'm supposed to trust that God knows what is going on and why, and I just maybe "take a note" and recommit myself to being just a little bit better in whatever I can so that hopefully I can send out my "light" in a way that leads people to better themselves and not the reverse. :rolleyes:

Thank you for making me stop and think today - I needed this! :)

[Oopsie Daisey]

I basically see things as Voyager does. God certainly can send a storm (Noah) or other calamities (Sodom and Gomorra), but I don't think He is daily thinking...
"There are some ungodly folks in Florida so I'm going to send 4 hurricanes this year to wake them up."

I also USED to think everything was either of God or Satan. But I think the verse that talks about time and chance happening to all clears a lot of this up.

God appears to operate differently when dealing directly with a nation than at other times.

Doug :)
You know I set here and spin out thoughts every minute and when I spin them out sometimes I do things a little more than I should but sometimes it gets me to where I want to go and sometimes it gets me in trouble but I just wanted to say that I really appreciated the feedback here and for what it is worth, I guess that I am still seeking that answer that sits just right with me. I think of Jesus speaking to the wind when he was in the boat with the disciples all night and the wind and rain listened to His command and I am trying to add it all up and I still come up with God is in charge and so that makes me aware of His sovereignty in this situation and His mercy and how we are totally dependent upon His mercy. Just still spinning out thoughts. I wished I had saved them from the other board that was up that someone posted. They posted some excellent thoughts on this and I guess I just am doing some thinking on God, and who He is and how He is to us. Thanks for your feedback. It is gratefully appreciated.

Melanie:)

[Oopsie Daisey]

Boy Emerging you hit the nail on the head with where my thoughts are spinning too and brought up some points I didn't even think of which bring me to the point that it is Bible prophecy and that we have to humble ourselves and turn from evil and not hang on to it while seeing if God has elasticity. All I can think of and I don't know if this is in context or if I have taken it out of context but God saying HE will have mercy on who He will have mercy and it makes me know that I can't just take Him for granted and fail to give HIM my thanks for protecting lives in the middle of the storms and for sparing lives during this.

Thanks for the great feedback.

Blessings,
Melanie
:confused:

[Oopsie Daisey]

be my perspective and hits it pretty close for me.....

HERE IT IS




A God Of Contrasts



One of the things many people struggle with is the idea that God created absolutely everything, which includes things that we consider to be good and things that we consider to be bad. God created rainbows and butterflies and sunsets. God also created hurricanes, tornadoes, and forest fires. God created saints, and God created serial killers. We like to believe in a God who knows all, sees all, and is infinitely good. So why would this God create things that can hurt us and kill us?



Two different readings for Morning Prayer struck me this morning. The first was Psalm 107. It says "The Lord changed rivers into deserts, and water-springs into thirsty ground, a fruitful land into salt flats, because of the wickedness of those who dwell there. He changed deserts into pools of water and dry land into water-springs" (Psalm 107: 33-35). In these three verses, we see a God of contrasts, the God of both deserts and rivers, of both fruitful ground and wasteland. We also see a God of dynamics: just because this land is a desert today, you can't count on it being a desert forever. The natural world is full of contrasts and is always dynamic, never static. The only static thing in the natural world is a dead thing, and even that is full of life as it decomposes. God created the world to be this way, ever changing and ever interesting. God is in the desert and in the river. In fact, the first thing Jesus did after being baptized in the Jordan River was to spend forty days in the desert, fasting and praying. The river and the desert may be opposites, but they are both crucial parts of the person that God became.

The second reading that struck me was from the prophet Isaiah. "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things" (Isaiah 45:5-7). These contrasts are even more stark. Light and darkness. Sunrise and sunset. Prosperity and disaster. How can we reconcile this God who brings prosperity and creates disaster with our all-knowing, all-loving, infinitely good God? To tell the truth, I'm not sure that we can. It may seem like a copout to say that this is just one of those things that is beyond our understanding, but I think it may just be true. Another selection from Isaiah makes a case for this, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:6-11).

We are capable of appreciating the grandeur and magnificence of things like deserts and hurricanes. But God is the God of chickenpox and athlete's foot, too. Sometimes it is more painful to us that one dear person dies of pneumonia than it is that hundreds or thousands lose their lives in natural disasters. I honestly don't know how to reconcile the God of rivers and rainbows with the God of cancer. Perhaps part of the beauty of the natural world is that it is temporary and not eternal. I know that this is part of the beauty of the butterfly and the rose, as it is part of the beauty of a baby of any species. Maybe the kingdom of God is eternally and heart-breakingly beautiful, but we will not know until we leave this time-bound world. I do know that the kingdom of God is eternally and heart-breakingly loving and good. And I think that is enough for me. I remind you - faith is not blind belief; faith is what you choose to believe, with open eyes, open heart, and open and questioning mind. I place my faith in God, the creator of the vast, magnificent universe. Butterflies and chickenpox and all.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

© Heather Mina (http://www.onespiritproject.com/Channels/mina.html)
Life Channels Staff Writer
All Rights Reserved



http://www.onespiritproject.com/Channels/mina-21.html

[Florence]

Okay, so maybe this will sound a little cock-eyed . . . but just hang with me for a minute . . .

I think it's all about worship. What is the war between God and Satan over? Worship. God is the only one worthy of our worship and Satan wanted that for himself. One case in point would be the third temptation of Jesus - Satan wanted Jesus' is worship. Another would be Job. Satan told God that Job only loved Him because his life was so rosey. God said, "No, Job really loves me and I'll prove it to you - do whatever you want with him but don't kill him." So, Satan brought about every kind of calamity imaginable and more. People died, disease was rampant, Job lost everything except his life. But in the end, Job got it right by proclaiming, "I don't know what You are up to God, but You are God and I am not, so I'm just going to go ahead and worship You."

I wonder if everytime something "bad" happens, instead of questioning God about "Why did You let this happen?" or "Am I or are they being punished?" or "Are You a loving God or not?" we had the faith to say, "God, this is a lousy situation and I don't understand it, but You are God and I am not and so I am just going to go ahead and acknowledge You as the most worthy object of my worship" if we would be joining God in showing Satan that he is not winning this war over our hearts, minds, strength, and faith. If there was a war over Job's worship, and over Jesus' worship, could it be that there is a war going on over our worship as well?

Just a thought . . .
Florence

[Oopsie Daisey]

I wonder if everytime something "bad" happens, instead of questioning God about "Why did You let this happen?" or "Am I or are they being punished?" or "Are You a loving God or not?" we had the faith to say, "God, this is a lousy situation and I don't understand it, but You are God and I am not and so I am just going to go ahead and acknowledge You as the most worthy object of my worship" if we would be joining God in showing Satan that he is not winning this war over our hearts, minds, strength, and faith.
REALLY good point and I appreciate you stepping in and bringing it back to focus and where it should be. Truly it is about Him and while we see things around us happening and thankfully I do not live in Florida or the South. I guess what got me thinking about it was I had the weather channel on today and as I watched it and see all the devestation, I couldnt' help but think and then when that email came from a friend in Florida and it was most adamant that I was taking it too lightly and that I was supposed to have my nose to the floor praying and the whole email crap that was sent had me all knotted up inside and thinking geekers...I hope I have a different God than this family does because friends email' premise was that it could be stopped if only we prayed enough. That was quite a guilt trip.

Thanks Florence for sharing.

There was more to the email that got me all worked up but you have the essence of it there and I sure did appreciate your sharing.

Thank you,
Melanie

[Voyager]

I don't consider myself much of a theologian, although I did teach an adult Sunday School class of 450 people for about four years. Even though I studied the Bible from cover to cover for many years, I still have a lot of questions that haven't been answered.

Let's face it, the men who wrote the Bible were living in barbaric times when it was common to beat people into submission. I think their culture affected their writings. They perceived God as one who would inflict wrath and punishment on wayward people to straighten them out, because they saw this type of behavior happening amongst the people of their culture. They didn't have radar weather forecasts and meteorologists to warn them about upcoming hurricanes and tropical storms, so when they took place (along with other natural disasters), they probably just figured it was God's wrath on the heathens.

I no longer believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. If it were, we would all be in big trouble. Women wouldn't be able to speak in churches. Gays would be stoned and killed. Women who were in their period could not be associated with. We wouldn't be able to eat shellfish. People who worked on the Sabbath would be stoned to death. The list goes on. I believe that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God, but they were also inspired to a greater degree by their culture.

I guess you could call me a liberal Christian now. I try to stick with the basics. Jesus died to spare me from God's wrath and judgement, and that's all the deeper my religion gets. If I get any deeper than that, it causes confusion and depression.

:cool:

[Oopsie Daisey]

You mean we can separate God from His word... I wonder what it means when it says that heaven and earth will pass away but God's word won't ....and Thy word have I hid in my heart that I won't sin against Him and to study to show thyself a workman right approved ... so all of this would being thrown away and and be barbaric??? Then would I have to throw away where it is written that Jesus came to die on the cross for me and for my sins to be washed away???That is barbaric as well from what your saying if I understand???-- is that what your saying?

I can understand wanting to ditch the Bible after having it twisted so many times and used on a person but the one thing I cannot understand from you or anyone is why it would be taken only what is liked out of it? Is that twisting scripture too? Concerned, Melanie

[Voyager]

I really don't want to get into a deep argument over this with you Melanie. You have your views, and I have mine. Obviously we don't agree on this subject, so I don't want to get into a battle with you. I consider you a good friend.

Here is something to take a look at (if you're interested) that I feel supports my opinion that the Bible was written by imperfect men who meant well but didn't always speak for God:

http://ffrf.org/lfif/?t=contra.txt

Have a great day!

:cool:

[Oopsie Daisey]

I really don't want to get into a deep argument over this with you Melanie. You have your views, and I have mine. Obviously we don't agree on this subject, so I don't want to get into a battle with you. I consider you a good friend.

Here is something to take a look at (if you're interested) that I feel supports my opinion that the Bible was written by imperfect men who meant well but didn't always speak for God:

http://ffrf.org/lfif/?t=contra.txt

Have a great day!

:cool:Actually Voyager, I don't need to see the site because someone else's (another imperfect individuals ) would not convince me but has you obviously. No fight necessary.
I posted questions and you gave answers and I came to my conclusion. That is all I needed to do. Have a good day.
What my original post was searching for was contrary to what I put in the subject line. What I was really concerned about was the intercession of Jesus and so because I put something in the subject line that was not what I really wanted to convey then I continued along this line till I came to what I believe about this. SO all is not lost subject and I am very convinced now.



Melanie

[Voyager]

I don't need to see the site because someone else's (another imperfect individuals ) would not convince me but has you obviously.

No, actually I came to the conclusion on my own after years of seeking and studying.

:cool:

[Oopsie Daisey]

No, actually I came to the conclusion on my own after years of seeking and studying.

:cool:Shaking hands with you and saying that it appears we have difference of opinion which is okay. God Bless friend.

Melanie:D

[Emerging]

Reading through this all reminds me of something I meant to incorporate in my thoughts and posts this morning but forgot ... something about being human and sleepy still and all..... :rolleyes: ... And that is the idea that rather than God actually "doing" these things, it's when *our behavior puts us outside of His protection* these things happen, both on small individual scales and on large national+ scales .... and He has to let them because of our Freedom to Choose in this life combined with things like the Laws of Physics and etc. .... Behaving is like staying under His umbrella. Misbehaving is us stepping outside of it & then "taking our chances".

I too had a thought about Job, and that was that even though he was doing so well already, just maybe he wasn't pure enough to receive the double riches that God had in store for him *and* remain humble afterwards, so he had to go through that trial to further refine and purify him, to prepare him to be able to have all that wealth and still remain righteous.

My final piece of stew for the pot is that just because someone repents doesn't mean they haven't set into motion a string of consequences that may take years to play out. i.e., stupid sex and they can parent a child they are not ready for, or get a disease that kills them, or end up in a really bad relationship ... all things that don't end simply because they repented. ... although by repenting they might be able to mitigate some of the resultant bad effects of their initial behavior.

[Florence]

Interesting how we so often want to tie God's blessings to our own righteousness . . .

Why do we always want to look at what God was working out in Job's life but so easily forget that he had a wife and children that died in order for him to become "pure enough." Was God not worried about them as well?

The whole "self-righteous" thing doesn't fly - there is nothing - NOTHING! - that any of us can ever do to be "pure enough" or righteous enough - we CANNOT measure up to any standard. This is apparent in Jesus' discussion with the rich young ruler. When Jesus told him what it would take to get into heaven, the young man said, "No problem, I've reached the bar." So Jesus raised the bar. I think Jesus was trying to get the rich young ruler to realize that he could not attain the kingdom on his own - only Jesus could do that for him.

God rains down blessings on both the just and the unjust. Again, I believe that, more than anything, we need to acknowledge that no matter what God does, He is God and He does what He pleases.

You are right, confession does not erase consequences, but not all "bad things" that happen are consequences. I'm not sure I understand the logic (perhaps you could give me some scriptural references for your assertions here) about "Behaving is like staying under His umbrella. Misbehaving is us stepping outside of it & then "taking our chances". I know when my own children misbehave, I don't withdraw my protection from them.

To start equating those times that bad things happen to us as being punishment for "mis-behaving" sets us all up for abusive situations in which people can berate us and bring us into bondage by saying that because something "bad" has befallen us, we must have done something to deserve it. When God and Satan talked, it was obvious that Job had done nothing - in fact his life was really great. That's why Satan challenged God and said that Job only loved God because his life was so good. It was Job's so-called friends that told Job he must have done something terrible to have this happen to him. And how did God have Job respond - He ordered Job to pray for his friends. Only then was his riches restored. Message: Love God, love people. Greatest commandment. No matter what.

Great stew, by the way.
Florence

[Jerry]

Dear Melanie,,,,,
I don't think the Hurricanes have anything to do with God or Satan...I think it is Oh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ummmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the Weather :rolleyes:
Love Jerry

[Voyager]

Great post Florence! You too Jerry (yours are always good - well... uhhhh.. most of the time - LOL!).

:cool:

[Oopsie Daisey]

Dear Melanie,,,,,
I don't think the Hurricanes have anything to do with God or Satan...I think it is Oh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ummmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the Weather :rolleyes:
Love Jerry
Dearest Jerry:

You know what? It don't matter to me? I am going to believe what I believe and that is that I didn't attach my spirituality to it. I made a post and then someone hopped on it and obviously did attach their spirituality to it. I rode the other side of the coin. I didn't do it to be mean or anything like that but just as a way for me to weigh out the pro's and con's of the individuals thoughts.

I might have attached my spirituality to it if I lived in Florida or down where the hurricaines were but I didn't do that and so it is really a mode point.

Jerry your a dear and I always like to hear from you...;)

Smiles,
Melanie

[Oopsie Daisey]

Hi Florence and Emerging:

I have read your posts and wanted to reply but I wanted to wait and think on it too! I was thinking about consequences and sin and all of that and Job's life and I always like to go back to Job's life and refer to it. I like to refer to it because I think of Job's friends picking at Job as though he had done something wrong and I think so often that looking at the speck in another's life is what I need to quit doing and look at the beam in my own eye. I find it incredible that it was not due to consequences of sin that Job went through all the horrible things he did and could say "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." I read a book by Peg Rankin one time to that title. Boy was that good. It was suggested that God was worshipped by Job but Job never knew God until he went through the most excruciating situations and then at the end of Job, Job says now I know Him. Wow~! So when I see referals of Job, I think of God and how he allowed this to happen. He even told satan, did you ever think of my servant Job? But God said you cannot kill him. God is sovereign so powerful and so all knowing of Job's responses that I personally have lost my respect for the Almightyness of God and just how big HE is and find that worship is more sincere when I take the entire picture of God and realize just what He has done and Job is one those instances. There has been a loss of reverence for God and I for one can say I was one of them.

Thanks for sharing the buffet of thoughts. Blessings.

Melanie
:) :) :)

[Emerging]

Interesting how we so often want to tie God's blessings to our own righteousness . . . To start equating those times that bad things happen to us as being punishment for "mis-behaving" sets us all up for abusive situations in which people can berate us and bring us into bondage by saying that because something "bad" has befallen us, we must have done something to deserve it

Florence, I guess our Biblical educations had different focuses - and you're right that *anything* can become abusive ... BUT .... do you reward your children when they choose poorly? No, me neither. BUT ... do we abusively punish them? NO, ... but they *do* need something to get the message across .... just as when we err at work they will not be rewarding us there either. Speed and we get tickets. ... in all we do, err and there is a consequence. My Biblical training was heavy on showing that God will indeed NOT reward poor choices, either. That it would in fact be *unjust* for Him to do so. So that's where I am coming from on that.

As for....

Why do we always want to look at what God was working out in Job's life but so easily forget that he had a wife and children that died in order for him to become "pure enough." Was God not worried about them as well?

... if they were indeed righteous as well when they died, then they had nothing to fear. They died when God saw they would, of His will, and no way they can be anything but rewarded for that. Deaths that seem untimely always get to me, well, unless the one who died embraces evil and then I admit I breathe a sigh of relief at their passing, but again got to trust that God knows what He's doing ... hard as that is for me to believe at times.

The whole "self-righteous" thing doesn't fly - there is nothing - NOTHING! - that any of us can ever do to be "pure enough" or righteous enough - we CANNOT measure up to any standard.
I partly agree with you but just taken as is, this is the abusive line that we grew up hearing, abusive because it was used against us. Like you said God is always raising the bar just like we do with our own children. The question for me has always been "Have I met the standard God wants me to meet today, knowing as He does just what I am capable of this moment, this day? Remembering that His standard is set with mercy and love."

"Behaving is like staying under His umbrella. Misbehaving is us stepping outside of it & then "taking our chances". I know when my own children misbehave, I don't withdraw my protection from them.

Of course NONE of us withdraw our protection, BUT just like when anyone e.g. drives drunk, they have not only removed themselves from the protection of the law, but they threaten theirs and other people's safety. There is no time for me right now to quote scriptures, but I do also believe that His mercy comes into play when we are doing what our hearts know is our *best* at that moment ... even when that *best* falls far short of the mark. Confusing? For me too! Job was "righteous" ... maybe like he'd figurately graduated college ... and then God sent him on for his "Masters" degree and finally his "doctorate"?

Bottomline for me has been that we always know what's right and what's not, and like the ripples in the pond, what we do has far-reaching effects that we never intended ... BOTH ways. Mercy can step in to mitigate some of the effects, but I haven't learned how it works other than it does at times. But how can we learn to choose love and the greater good over "me, me, me" unless there are consequences for both, good for the first and not for the last. If this life is a learning experience, then we have to somehow learn, and without God having to "helicopter" over us / command us in ALL things, IF we are truly to make the progress we need to in this life.

Thanks for your feedback and I hope this makes more sense.

[Florence]

Emerging,
Interesting that you would bring up untimely deaths. My sister-in-law passed away this weekend at the ripe old age of 55. How glad we are that she knew the Lord.

I am never relieved when an unbeliever dies. Who can be relieved knowing that another person has gone to hell?

I wasn't saying that people don't suffer consequences, simply that not every bad thing that happens is the result of their "mis-behavior." Perhaps it is the result of someone else's mis-behavior - I know people who blame themselves every time they get the flu because they must have done something wrong and God is punishing them. Maybe their only "sin" was using the same doorknob as someone else who was carrying around flu germs.

I have heard too many times that someone was struck with a malady because they weren't "right with God" or that they weren't miraculously healed because they weren't "right with God" or their husband, children, dog, whatever wasn't "right with God." I have seen people - myself included - beaten down and their relationship with God totally destroyed because they were led to believe that they weren't good enough.

If you honestly believe that you can measure up to some standard God has set concerning your own behavior, WOW! I guess we do come from totally different foci. Not that I don't believe that God wants us to be holy and pure - absolutely He does. But ultimately we cannot do it without falling fully on the His grace and mercy through Jesus. It is only through Jesus that we will ever be acceptable to God. Not because of anything that we do of ourselves.

Does God work in our lives to make us more Christ-like? Absolutely. Does He use consequences? Absolutely. Can we ever measure up to His standard? No. The only standard we can measure up to is fully trusting in the FULL AND FREE GRACE God Himself made possible for us through Jesus.

Have you ever read "Tired of Trying to Measure Up" or "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" or "When God's People Let You Down"? I would highly recommend them all.

Blessings,
Florence

[Emerging]

Not much time again ... life is a little hairy at times!

But a few answers to your queries:

When a "Bad guy" dies, well, when for instance my friend's terribly abusive ex died ... you BET we all breathed a HUGE sigh of relief. esp their *children*!! As for his salvation or lack of, that's between him and God now, for I was not taught that hell is permanent, but more like a looooooooong "jail sentence" .. something about the bad guys taking the 1,000 years to burn clean and thus not be resurrected til near the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign during the Millenium. .... but back to my poor FRIEND and her CHILDREN.... they are now able to BEGIN to really heal from all he did to them .... so yes, BIG relief here.

Just like we need to love our children ALWAYS no matter what they do, but never IGNORE their bad choices ... LOVINGLY allow their consequences to come to them.... And yes, it's not always our consequences that hit us square between the eyes ... when the stuff hits the fan the disbursement is very unequal.....

Finally, yes, I DO think I'm "good enough" as far as God is concerned because he's a *perfect* parent.... that whole "UNconditional love" ... *perfectly shown*. That for Him, I am NOT my imperfect actions. It's the same standard I hold myself up to ... no where near there yet, but I"m trying every single day and if I believed that I would never measure up ... then I'd just quit being good right now ... why try if only to fail?

Does this help at all?

[Florence]

Nope. You're not a Christian, are you?

[Reg]

Hi Melanie & Voyager and all.

I have been following this thread for awhile. Melanie makes some very good points as well as Voyager. Sure wish I could add something that would give us all the answer. Unfortunately, I just don't know. Sure, God could cause these storms as well as Satan or they could be natural weather patterns that cause these storms.

It could be any of these reasons. We just don't know for sure.

One thing I know for sure is that God did create the weather patterns as well as the ecology of the earth. He set the creation in motion. It now runs it's own course by-in-large. Yes, for the most part, time and chance happens to them all. I saw pictures of the trailer parks and one was totally devastated and the one next to it had hardly any damage. I saw this in many pictures of the damage. Can any of us say for sure that God or Satan was involved? Perhaps so, perhaps not.

It's questions like this that many have, but no one knows for sure except God. I feel we will have to wait until later to have the answers. There are things that we cannot know now with certainty. The best we can do is stay close to Him, thank Him always and pray for those less fortunate than us.

One thing for sure I do know. God is in charge and His plan is being worked out as He directs it.

Why things happen the way they do that we don't understand has always been difficult for us to rationalize. Truly, His thoughts are higher than ours. We just need faith and trust in Him to always be doing it for the good of all even though we can't figure it out.

Thy Will be done.