does anyone ever wonder if they were wrong about processing sp.abuse?

[DLL]

sometimes i think that maybe i took everything all the wrong way and i wasnt really abused or mistreated. i just didnt know how to process what was being done. but then i wonder if thats true, then why all the pain and mistrust.? there are times when i really dont know which way to think. its like i cant think by myself anymore. that it would be so much easier for someone to think for me. but then wouldnt that lead to another abusive or painful situation? do other people have such mixed emotions too or have i truly lost my own ability to process this stuff?just think again.

[molehills]

oh yeah, and I'm open to saying I was wrong about some things, particularly the things from my childhood. I think if you feel wronged and hurt though, then something is wrong enough to get out of there and get some air until your head clears. For me 9 times out of 10 if I give it enough time I can sort it out. It's taken me four years this time, but I think I've gotten to the bottom of it enough to feel confident when I say the things that happened were wrong. It helps that some of the them were illegal in my situation, but I think looking at the overall pattern of behavior helps. Maybe if only one or two things that are questionable well, it's a tough call, but when the list starts getting up to double digits--it's not you.

[jane]

Donna,

All the time!

When we were in the church, as we were leaving, we had meetings with pastor and his wife. We had only said that we were leaving because we didn't feel like we belonged here anymore. No one would accept that. They started an inquisition. The deacon, Administrator of Helps (my husband's child hood friend) was at our door everyday....WHO DID WHAT< SOMETHING had to have happened, people don't just leave!

So, we started to talk about some of the "hurts". The pastor and his wife "checked into it". It was said of us that "yes, everything that they are saying is true, but they take things differently, they get hurt by things that don't bother us."

(READ SOME OF MY EARLIER POSTS;one of those hurts was that they were making fun of the size of my infant son's penis while I was unbeknown to them, around the corner of the nursery----saying that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree-about my husband" So when I refused to leave him in the nursery, I was accused of not "being fed the word" or committed to the vision.)

So we were told that because of our childhoods we heard things differently. We over reacted.

We were also told that we "strung events together that weren't connected". We were telling them why we did not feel comptfortable in the church, so we listed all the reasons why and then were told we "strung events together in a distorted way".


I get angry when I hear about abuse of other people, I don't desire to be in a church; I am confused about where God was when my babies were dying; when my husband lay in the hospital infectious disease ward; while my best friend in His name was reporting me to the authorities; when my son's head stopped growing; when the church mother's group that I created started to meet without me; when the Power company tried to steal our land; when the electrician from our church didn't finish the electrical work costing us several hundred dollars, when the plumber from our church left open pipes under my sink for over 6 months, when the new "christian" electrician took $3000. for a job that he screwed up and when this last Pastor didn't finish our cabinets and everything is open--- And my biggest question; Lord, in the midst of our wretched pain; are you real? If so, Do you care about us? Did you call us to do this Hannah's Haven or are we dislusional like everyone else who says things in Your Name....."

Yes, it is in those moments when I doubt His existance or His love that I know without a doubt; they are right; I have been decieved and am being decieved....and soon I will be devoured by our enemy for believing His lies....


Donna,
that is why I am here. I would get close to suicide because of how depressed I can get about what happened over the last 4 years in our life. I can get confused about Who God is, Who I am and I need this place to remind me of what is the truth. It is in this truth that I believe I will be set free.

Much love,
and understood tears,
Jane ;)

[joemama]

I think that the response of most abused people--the kind of people who take abuse and don't react is that "maybe I misunderstood" or "maybe I'm being too sensitive" or "maybe if I fasted/prayed about this I would see this differently". I think that this is because A) we were taught to think this way by parents or clergy or whomever and B) we really believed that these people somehow knew what was best for us because they were smarter or closer to God or whatever and C) because we HONESTLY BELIEVED--not cynically--not like those brought up in it--those who take what they want and cast the rest aside (unless someone's looking) . AND SO when we started to let ourselves finally see what was going on we were COMPLETELY dissillusioned/disappointed/blown away and it all looks like a cruel joke played on the truly devout.An insiders game--which I wasn't and still am not privy to (nor do I want to be). I don't think you should always second guess yourself. Ask yourself this were there people in your church who didn't always have to be "busy in the work of the Lord"? Were those people respected? In my church there are several highly respected families who do NOT run from church activity to church activity-but (here's the catch) theyv'e been in the organization their whole life,they are well off,and several of them are relatives to the pastor.AND NO ONE GIVES THEM GUILT. They don't have to second guess things like me-or pray and fast--because people don't give them CRAP to pray about and "get their heart right " about.

[joemama]

oh --sorry-- I got so caught up I didn't answer your question. It is normal for people in abusive situations to think later on that maybe they were wrong in processing it--maybe it didnt happen that way.Have you written a diary? that can help--that way you can look back and see the factual events when you start to doubt yourself.My sister was married for 4 years to an abusive (sexually/verbally/physically) and after she finally left she had periods where she doubted her version of what had happened and her own sanity. Her diary (which she wrote on a daily basis and sent to my mother's house) (also on a daily basis--so he couldnt find it)showed her that she was right--things never added up--words didn't match actions--apologies were never sincere enough to stop behavior longer than a day or so.Instead of letting guilt rule you--trust yourself. You WERE unhappy--why? are you the kind of person who constantly blows little things out of proportion? Or are you the kind of person who swallows their pride-alot? I'll bet you are the kind that swallows their pride.So why would you blow this out of proportion? You are SMARTER than that! TRUST YOURSELF

[joemama]

one last thought! boy. you've got me going!--have you ever noticed how on this forum even though everyone has these terrible experiences and they are all so long we couldn't write even a fraction of it--no one says--"well, just be thankful!" no one says "you don't know pain--let me tell you..." no one says--" there are people out there in burn wards" or "discouragement is a lack of courage--and fear isn't from God-so you know where that came from--rebuke it!" EVERYONE IS SUPPORTIVE!!!!!! WOW!! WHAT A CONCEPT!!!!

[bad girl]

This post just hit home for me. I was watching a movie, but was I thinking about the movie? No, I was doing the mental gymnastics, thinking, are they waiting for me to call them? Did I not give them a chance? Are they thinking they are better off without me anyway?
Then, I come in the house from the garage where we have a bonus room with the tv we watch movies on, and my husband is asleep. As I bump into walls trying to get around in the dark, I finally fumble and find a flashlight, and turn it on. At this point, he jumps up and starts fussing at me for making noise. I say I couldn't get to the bed without feeling for the furniture and he calls me a jerk. I stand up for myself, and every time I barely stand up for myself at all, he starts putting on his clothes to sleep in the garage bonus room always locking me out of where he is. I usually cry and beg him to come in, but this time I locked the door behind him and said "why don't you stay a couple of more days?" :eek: I have read that one of the primary things in emotional abuse if witholding, which is the most torture. When they leave you frustrated and upset like when he goes to the garage, he locks me out, no matter how upset I am. He refuses to work anything out. Apologies, forget it. When I read that abusers usually apologize, I think, wow, maybe he isn't an abuser since he rarely apologizes. But why? he has me running back to him like a stupid dog that doesn't know any better.

Then, pardon the expression, but I think, this sucks, I have to be treated like this at home and at the same time had to lose my two best friends, as when the situation started, one of them betrayed me and printed out a personal email which I had specifically typed not to share. The leader had her read it in the "meeting" in front of four people. They both had gossipped and told the leader just about everything I had said, and most of it was being repeated back to me inaccurately, but nobody would listen to me. Then, the leader says to talk to these two women, my friends over the next two weeks, and they would determine if I was "ready" to come back to worship, I guess my heart condition had to be assessed. The other stipulation to get my husband's permission is a joke because he doesn't care a bit about my happiness, and talking to them was not an option, even though he knew that was my heart's joy, serving in the worship area, Even when my husband knew I could not participate unless he talked to them to let them know it was OK. I was supposedly in blatant sin, what? blatant sin for trying to find my way to the bed in the dark? I think the church hit home so much because this messed with my service to the Lord, my joy in serving him with the gifts he had given me.

Then, tomorrow, he'll act like nothing ever happened and be "nice" and I'll see my girlfriends from the church, and they'll be "nice" and say they're praying for me and love me, and my head will want to explode, as I think, I can't believe I thought that was "abuse" it's me, it's all my perception, I'm nuts. The only thing that I have to go on is PAIN. I have no other guage right now. If it hurts, something must be wrong. So I guess, right now, I am defining abuse as pain. I'm so disoriented, it's the only thing that is real.

I felt like my friends were just like Job's friends. They tried and tried to convince Job he had done something wrong to be in the predicament he was in. Thank goodness God eventually came to his rescue and told them off. Where is God now? I still have faith he is out there and will come to my rescue.

Jane, I wish I could give comfort to your situation. I can't, I lost two babies, and it is really really painful. One session in prayers that heal the heart, a ministry/ Bible study, though, God dramatically healed me after ten years of being emotionally trapped in a moment of trauma associated with the still birth. The deliverance was very instant. Memories are still there, but not an emotional prison any more.

Love to all,
Pat

[bad girl]

Sorry my last post so long, but while we're on this subject, do you notice that the abusers accuse the abused of abusing them? Have other's had this experience. Every time my husband starts the emotional abuse, he accuses me of abusing him.
I think he honestly believes it.

Pat

[Jerry]

Dear Donna
If it feels like it was abuse,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it was ;)
Love Jerry

[DLL]

THANKS YOU GUYS FOR BEING HERE, FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK TO ME. you are right joemama. this is such a supportive place...no judgements, just support. support in many different ways...advice, truth, just listening, empathizing. this is my safe place, my journal so to speak. but no i dont write a journal because when i did, my husband would show the pastor things i'd written. thats how the pastor infiltrated my privacy. and thats why i have a really big horrible marriage problem because i cant even talk to my husband on more than a very limited level like " did you take out the trash or feed the dog?" i think thats a really big part in me healing would be able to DISCUSS or COMMUNICATE to my husband w/o the fear that he would go straight to the pastor. and if we should start on the subject, all my husband says is he doesnt want to talk about any of that because it will just start an argument , then ill start crying and he'll get mad and walk away. or he'll say "why dont you go talk to the pastor. he's so sincere".
i feel trapped in something but im not sure what it is.thats what drives me crazy. i think if i could just figure out what im trapped in, id be better. i want so bad to talk to my husband. to be 100% honest with him nomatter how it hurts. but he says just to forget everything and go on from here. somehow that doesnt feel right though. is it? and then i want the security of knowing hes not gonna talk to the pastor. not that he wont tell the pastor anything the pastor doesnt know already but i feel so violated when he does.

and jane,
we had the same thing happen to us. my kids were in the foyer one day talking to a bunch of their friends(now keep in mind they are about 15-16 yrs at this time)when they overheard a FEW of the ladies talking in the next room. all of these teens, not just mine, heard one of the ladies say " i just wish that family would leave and go somewhere else. they create too many problems around here."
....the problem.....i let my girls wear pants and encouraged them to make friends with people outside thechurch, whereas the pastor had made it clear on numerous occassions that he didnt want any of us to befriend those outside the church...that it would contaminate us. did my kids some wrong things? you bet they did!! they are human. but did they need to hear that from these ladies? no!! that was the turning point in all this. (and i believe one of the ladies was the pastors wife but not sure and i KNOW one was another pastors wife!!!) thats when my kids decided church (and maybe GOD) wasnt for them. do they go back? occassionally, but to see their friends, not to meet with God. and this is what i get blamed for, because if i "hadnt done what i did, then my girls would have seen a sweet, submissive, meek and quiet spirit and followed in my footsteps." and this is why we( me and the girls) are so careful to watch how we are greeted and talked to and if people are looking at us or talking about us when we do go to this church because we still wonder if it could be genuine or are they still trying to manipulate us.
( and i dont know if this is the right way to think but , i dont want my girls to follow in my footsteps because it is the path of least resistance. i want them to follow in Jesus' footsteps because they come to know and love Him for what he did for them). and the stories could go on and on and on from there. just one event after the other which has led us to where we are now. and then like badgirl said, when you do see thme they treat you like everything is fine, nothing ever happened and so glad to see you. yeah right!!
thanks guys for being here...youre all i got right now!!

in his grace

[Jerry]

Dear Donna,,,
Thanks for this post,,,,,because it points out one thing that pervades the church of today,,,,,,,,,,,,,sexual preoccupation,,,,,,,,,WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TEACHING OUR YOUNG MEN??????????I mean this really gets to me !!!!! I taught my sons(3 of them) that they were to respect women,,,,weather they were wearing pants or "Butt Floss"!!!!!! I taught my boys that RESPECT IS RESPECT !!!!! And if they didn't respect women,,,,,They would get their ass kicked by me!!!!!!And I did have to kick one sons ass!!!!! ABUSE ??????Not at all !!!!!Rather for him it was a "Learning" experience :D and guess what ?????? He loves me still and he has a successful marriage !!!!!!,,,,,,I HATE this new send them to counceling bullshit!!!!
Off my soap box now,,,,,Jerry

[Jerry]

Dear Donna,,,
Thanks for this post,,,,,because it points out one thing that pervades the church of today,,,,,,,,,,,,,sexual preoccupation,,,,,,,,,WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TEACHING OUR YOUNG MEN??????????I mean this really gets to me !!!!! I taught my sons(3 of them) that they were to respect women,,,,weather they were wearing pants or "Butt Floss"!!!!!! I taught my boys that RESPECT IS RESPECT !!!!! And if they didn't respect women,,,,,They would get their ass kicked by me!!!!!!And I did have to kick one sons ass!!!!! ABUSE ??????Not at all !!!!!Rather for him it was a "Learning" experience :D and guess what ?????? He loves me still and he has a successful marriage !!!!!!,,,,,,I HATE this new send them to counceling bullshit!!!!
Off my soap box now,,,,,Jerry
Too All ,,,
I apologize for the language in this post,,,been a long time since I got triggered like that.I stand by the spirit of the post.When Churches teach in this manner,,,it seems to me that the younger men in the church get the idea that they need not respect women that do not ascribe to their belief system.Again ,,,please forgive my temper :o
Love Jerry

[Hesed]

Too All ,,,
I apologize for the language in this post,,,been a long time since I got triggered like that.I stand by the spirit of the post.When Churches teach in this manner,,,it seems to me that the younger men in the church get the idea that they need not respect women that do not ascribe to their belief system.Again ,,,please forgive my temper :o
Love Jerry

Jerry, actually I agreed with a lot of what you said in your first post.

As a middle-aged, pre-menopausal woman, I've often had occasion to wonder how much of "Christian teaching" is promulgated by young men with strong libidos and a strong temptation to wander sexually. So much teaching seems geared toward the controlling of "uncontrollable" sexual urges and often doesn't speak to where I'm at in any way. I've said to people that I'm fed up to my back teeth hearing about The Great Controversial Issue In The Christian Church Today (the one whose name must not be spoken and so I will not do so ;) ). This is yet again another way of focussing on sex.

A golfing instructor once said to me that if you don't want to go in the water trap, the worst thing you can do is think "Avoid the water trap" because you've got all your concentration on the water trap and will certainly aim right for it. Better to think "I'm going to hit the green".

Sex is the Church's great water trap and God and Her ( ;) ) love and righteousness are the green.

[DLL]

no need to apologize jerry. nothing taken personally and i do see your point.love ya jerry

[butterfly]

Donna, In Your Post You Wrote "i Am Traped In Something I"m Not Sure What It Is.thats What Drives Me Crazy. I Think If I Could Just Figure Out What I"m Traped In I"d Be Better." When I Read Your Post My Heart Aches For You. For Your Husband To Show The Pastor What You Wrote In Your Journal My Heart Sank. For Your Husband To Betray You That Way. Do You Think Some Of Your Feelings Of Being Traped Is Your Not Able To Vent Your Fellings For Fear Of Being Betrayed, Judged, And Condemed. Your Voice Has Been Taken Away From You And Getting Your Fellings Out In A Journal Has Been Betrayed. The Way They Treat You Has Gaged You. Would You Beable To Journal When Your Husband Is Not Home Then Shread Them. Put It In A Bag Despose It In A Trash Somewhere? Or A Place Where Your Husband Could Not Find Them. My Heart Goes Out To You And Your Girls.butterfly

[joemama]

When my sister tried to leave her husband (who had been abusive/unfaithful/etc etc..) (and the whole church knew of his unfaithfulness and apparently thought it good gossip material) the Pastor told my sister that Brother ___________(her husband) had some scriptures he wanted her to hear regarding divorce.What is it with pastors and their need to council women to stay despite all the unhappiness/abuse/infidelity?You know what I think? I think they are afraid.Afraid of losing the men-afraid that women will think that it is o.k to stand up for themselves-afraid that women will be able to be in control of their own sexuality-afraid of what other pastors might say if there is (gasp) a divorce in their church-afraid that they might have to really look long and hard about what Jesus said and think about what it meant (beyond the surface).I mean, if there was this discussion about divorce in the first place then that meant that it must have been taking place--right?And adultery and fornication--were they defined exactly the same as they are today? And marriage--was it defined the same? Obviously not-if Joseph would have had to divorce Mary for adultery (and they weren't even married yet).What kills me is later-the pastor changed his mind and told my sister that of course she could divorce her husband--as if the first meeting had never taken place--WHAT IS IT WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T REMEMBER THINGS????? IS IT ME<OR DO ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON??THAT THEY ARE IN SOME KIND OF AUTHORITARIAN POSITION OVER OTHERS? I COULD SCREAM.

[bad girl]

For Your Husband To Show The Pastor What You Wrote In Your Journal My Heart Sank. For Your Husband To Betray You That Way. Do You Think Some Of Your Feelings Of Being Traped Is Your Not Able To Vent Your Fellings For Fear Of Being Betrayed, Judged, And Condemed. Your Voice Has Been Taken Away From You And Getting Your Fellings Out In A Journal Has Been Betrayed. The Way They Treat You Has Gaged You. Would You Beable To Journal When Your Husband Is Not Home Then Shread Them. Put It In A Bag Despose It In A Trash Somewhere? Or A Place Where Your Husband Could Not Find Them. My Heart Goes Out To You And Your Girls.butterfly

Any pastor worth anything would tell your husband he is being disrespectful of your privacy and refuse to read it.

I have one suggestion. Our computer has individual desktops (windows XP) and I put mine on a password which my husband or kids don't know (e-mail me if you need to know how, it's really easy). I do all my journaling on the computer. I eventually printed it out and had it on a CD (I am also keeping it in case there is a custody situation and I would be in big trouble since he is so believable telling these things that aren't true. I hid it in a place and labeled it something he would not be interested in. I may give it to my parents eventually or a friend for safe keeping and if something ever happened to me, he wouldn't find and read it, as it would be bad for the children to find.

Just a suggestion on a practical thing. I journal also, and it is very important when things get twisted and reality is distorted. I can just look back and say, see, he said it right here.

Pat

[jjc9497]

You don't need to apologize for your passion. I wish more people could get ANGRY at the attitudes of "church people". And you sure are right about the sexual preoccupation in the church. I went to see my pastor and was accused of being "after" him because I preferred to speak to him (because I trusted him--what a joke!!) instead of going to the counselor he had recommended--who was a complete stranger to me.

[jane]

I have to tell you, you are not alone in your husband reading your journal.

I had a friend that I will call Trish. Her husband thought he was more spiritual than her and than she was holding them back. (from going into leadership, of course).

Trish was a victim of incest--her adopted father molested her growing up. She was now raising four daughters and a husband. He was one of those that was more of a child....


She kept the house spotless, kept all their schedules going, did hair cutting full time around everyone schedules etc.....

After the birth of their last baby, she lost interest...

He found a devotional that talked about intimacy between a husband and a wife that had some scripture about a woman's body belonging to her husband. He gave her homework to become "more spiritual" and left that as the page that "God just so happened to open him too...."

hehehehe....it didn't work and the poor guy lost supper being made for a week too.

:( Unfortunately she ended up in the Pastor's study. Her husband wanted her on the female viagra stuff...or to counsel with the pastor.

She said if he picked up after himself a little more or helped with the kids or something she might not be so exhausted at the end of the day!

He brought into therapy her past... :(

That is when she folded. I haven't seen her since we left the church. Her husband was one of the people who was inappropriate towards us in the end--we were about to have a meeting with them and the pastor when we changed our minds. We just didn't want to be part of a "witch hunt" and blaming people. He was intrusive and was emotionally abusive to a lot of people. (surprised???)

anyway, not my story so maybe I should not share it but I wanted you to know that you were not alone....


Jane

[molehills]

You don't need to apologize for your passion. I wish more people could get ANGRY at the attitudes of "church people". And you sure are right about the sexual preoccupation in the church. I went to see my pastor and was accused of being "after" him because I preferred to speak to him (because I trusted him--what a joke!!) instead of going to the counselor he had recommended--who was a complete stranger to me.

What is the deal with that? If they are so all fired worried about the pastor counseling women, then they need to have women in pastoral positions. I don't necessarily mean as an elder in the traditional sense, but some kind of designated older woman. Otherwise women are left with no shepherd by default. I think it's that legalism that sounds good, but doesn't really accomplish the purpose. The pastor's think they are protecting themselves from the temptation of some woman in their office, but really it's just empty legalism. Churches are bankrupt these days. It's like that church in Revelation. "We have everything, power point presentations, a super sound system, an orchestra, the latest gear and ministry techniques, not to mention a top-notch teaching pastor with a doctorate." But in reality they don't even have enough love to put an arm around a crying woman and ask why she's crying. That's poor blind and naked in God's book. Haven't they read the story of the good Samaritan? :mad: