changing the subject....did anyone see the dr phil show yesterday

[DLL]

i watched the show about this cult in utah and while the show was good, thats not what my question is about. during the show, it was brought out that if someone leaves this cult, then they have forsaken their religion and are going to hell. if you go to his message boards, there was alot of feedback about the show. some of the messages on the board questioned why these people were taught that, when " the bible clearly teaches that IF you believe in Jesus, you will go to heaven; and only if you dont believe in Jesus and what he did for us on the cross... then you will go to hell". the gospel was clearly stated by several posts. WELL.....that fueled a FIRE!!! alot of people responded with "thats just as bad or worse than what the cult teaches" or "this is another cultic philosophy". i was really surprised at the number of people who wrote to say that GOD is a good GOD and lets people in heaven based on thier goodness and good deeds.
my question is related to this.... i am a bible-believing, gospel-believing christian.
but i can understand where some of these people come from. it seems there is such a thin line from what we tell people and what cults tell people( about salvation or gaining heaven). i know and believe whats in the bible(I tim 3:16), but havent really figured out what separates us from them. i can see where some would think of us as narrow- minded because the gospel is so narrow. what some cults teach is narrow too. wrong but narrow. yet so many people fall for it. and so many people dont accept us. i guess im just rambling, but it makes me feel bad for people to think of my beliefs as cultic. ill probably write more as i think about this but do you have any thoughts on the subject?? :confused:

[joemama]

dear DLL, I feel the same way. I am coming to think that although Paul and the other epistle writers had a lot to say on the subject,what Jesus says is just as important if not (OH PARDON THE HERESY) more important. In my church we believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but curiously we never seem to preach about what he said.(unless its about the woman with the issue of blood). They LOVE that story because it hinges everything on her and her faith so it becomes a good blame story--like if this hasn't happened YOU don't have enough faith etc.But Jesus spoke about love and words versus actions and living a life where we love him more than anything or person. All I ever hear about is how you cant be a liar or fornicater or how without holiness no man shall see God.Jesus spoke to the woman at the well and didn't harass her for having 5 men--he had mercy.Where is mercy?Where is compassion? I think that we have to balance the rules with what Jesus said.

[Florence]

without holiness no man shall see God.


Our salvation isn't based on our holiness - it's based on Jesus' holiness. That's what it means to be saved by grace through faith, not from ourselves, but as a gift from God - not by works so that no one can boast (Eph. 1:8-9). In Galatians it says, "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (vs. 2-3)

Phil. 2:3 tells us that "it is God who works in you" - we can't even try to be good enough or righteous enough, or holy enough except that God does the work - so quit trying! Does that mean that we should just go around sinning? No! (see Galatians) But it does mean that we don't have to beat ourselves up for being someone's idea of a failure - God has restored you once you believe, and He is continually transforming you - He is, not you, not some pastor, not some church teaching or expectation.

I'll get off the platform now.
Florence

[Pinkie Pie]

That's a good way to put it, Florence. I was grappling for the words and couldn't find them.

I can understand why people think Christianity is a cult - because I used to think that. And my FAMILY thinks that about me now. I think that people see Christianity the way they see cults - as something that controls you and makes you a robot.

My own personal feeling (my apologies if I trigger anyone - this would have triggered me at one time), is that salvation changes the heart. Cults only control behavior and give the OUTWARD appearance of a person changing. So naturally people are going to shy away from anything that they think is going to try to control them.

That's why when the subject of my faith comes up with my family, I am always careful not to connect my salvation with the church I go to or anything related to church at all. It's about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, not about going to a certain church or being affiliated with a certain denomination - those are simply the places we go to fellowship with other believers and be strengthened in the Word (spiritually abusive churches notwithstanding). I didn't attend a church regularly for about 4 years after I left the spiritually abusive church - and I learned more about God's love and grace during that time than all the years before since I had been saved. Who taught me? GOD did - He showed Himself faithful over and over again. I realized during that time, that He really DOES love me just the way I am.

Christians put so much emphasis on the "going to hell" part and yes that is important. But people don't need to be told that they are bad (myself included). We already know our faults and shortcomings! When I got saved, I was by myself in a park. Wasn't even thinking about accepting the Lord or anything. What compelled me to ask Him into my heart, was not the fear of going to hell. That never entered my mind. It was the realization that He loved me and wanted a relationship with me. I think God knew that there was NO WAY I would have accepted Him if someone had tried to "win" me by telling me I was going to go to hell if I didn't "get saved".

That is one of the things I am so thankful for about the church I now attend. They are constantly emphasizing that we each discover our own unique personalities and gifts. Our pastor never tells anyone that they are called to do this or that. His wife always enourages the women's group that we each discover who we are as individuals and not try to be like anyone else or be something we are not just to feel accepted. Including by them! They encourage me to tell them if I disagree with them about something! Now that's a switch! But the whole message of the Gospel is preached by the way they love us, not by scare tactics.

Anyway, didn't intend to get so wordy - just my own way of looking at it. There IS a fine line between cults and Christianity, I think, because of the way the Gospel has been presented. I've learned so much about true biblical love and self-acceptance on this forum than I can even put into words.

[molehills]

Pinkie, I'm so encouraged by your post. I hope I find a church like that.

You and Florence said it well. The thing about Christianity is that it isn't dependant on our performance. It all depends on Christ. I've been researching all the different doctrinal perspectives by churches that are considered authentically Christian and not Cults and while there is some debate about faith and works the bottom line in all of them is that it isn't about what we do, it's about what Christ did. Our good works would never be sufficient. I just love the book of Galatians. The first year after I left our abusive church I got a good commentary on Galatians and just went at it.

[Pinkie Pie]

I'm glad you are encouraged, Molehills! Hang in there, you WILL find the church that is right for you. The church I am at now is the LAST place I would have thought I would go to, because on the surface it "looked" exactly like the spiritually abusive church I came out of. But to make a long long long story short, I visited a few times and was struck by their genuine love. I figured I had nothing to lose by visiting for awhile, and checking things out. I was already on my guard so I trusted no one and everything they did triggered me. Thank God my Pastor and his wife understood! And still understand, because they know I still get triggered by stuff, but not as much as when I first joined. I've been there going on 3 years now.

God has a place for you too. My prayer is that He will lead you to the place where you can find HEALING and REST for your soul.

I love Galatians too! Don't know why exactly, there's just something about it that "clicks" with me.

[Kerrin]

I believe Oprah has also done a big "expose"` on this cult, (or one similar) too!!!
If it's the same one; it systematically abuses women and young girls, won't educate them beyond 14, marries them off to men with multiple parteners and they are told they are to "reproduce" and look after the men!
They are not allowed to leave the compound.
The men do the shopping at stores owned and run by the "leaders"....
The babies that are born are "killed" or left to die ,if they have deformities due to the in-breeding, so they have tried to establish a "sister" sect in Canada to "mix" the blood lines up!!
The few women who escaped and were on Oprah were terrified, had never seen a T.V, car or knew of an "outside " world'.
It was the saddest thing I have ever seen. :(

How did she expose them?
One Man!
(He didn't disclose much publicly about how he gets them out........not yet!)
( How do you say enough on the internet so people know ,without alerting the Perpetrators, who obviously have access, and may further harm the victims??? :confused: )
One Man who left , and has made it his mission to rescue and help those women, and children, and make it public to push the political red tape ( in other words the 'turn a blind eye attitude :eek: ). into action!!! :mad:

Thank God for the "Oprah's" and "Dr.Phils" ,who whether .they are right or wrong, ARE doing something to better this world!!! ( And protect the innocent ,without seeking personal glory........that of course is my opinion ;) .
Love,
Kerrin

[Reg]

snip " the bible clearly teaches that IF you believe in Jesus, you will go to heaven; and only if you dont believe in Jesus and what he did for us on the cross... then you will go to hell". the gospel was clearly stated by several posts. WELL.....that fueled a FIRE!!! alot of people responded with "thats just as bad or worse than what the cult teaches" or "this is another cultic philosophy". i was really surprised at the number of people who wrote to say that GOD is a good GOD and lets people in heaven based on thier goodness and good deeds.
my question is related to this.... i am a bible-believing, gospel-believing christian.
but i can understand where some of these people come from. it seems there is such a thin line from what we tell people and what cults tell people( about salvation or gaining heaven). i know and believe whats in the bible(I tim 3:16), but havent really figured out what separates us from them. i can see where some would think of us as narrow- minded because the gospel is so narrow. what some cults teach is narrow too. wrong but narrow. yet so many people fall for it. and so many people dont accept us. i guess im just rambling, but it makes me feel bad for people to think of my beliefs as cultic. ill probably write more as i think about this but do you have any thoughts on the subject?? :confused:

We use the Bridge Diagram in Alpha to illustrate the divide between God and man. There is a gulf between us because of sin and nothing we can do can bridge the gap except the Cross which is the symbol of Christ's death. The gulf/gap between God and man results in death and connection to God represents life. I do not mention hell. I think it has been overdone. Death is something everyone can understand. The subject of hell is too controversial. I leave that up to others to explain. I simply say it is separation from God which results in death. We can only attain eternal life being connected to God. We need the blood of Christ to forgive us our sins upon repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord.

Here is a good explanation that talks about that. See the diagrams in Laws #2 & #3.

The Four Spiritual Laws

http://www.greatcom.org/laws/

[Jerry]

Ah,,,,,,You just knew I would have an opinion about that cult on Dr.Phil :D Hehehe and here it is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Federal Marshalls should be sent in to arrest and incarsirate every one of those Deviate Pedophile skumbags clear out the whole damn nest of them.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Wel l :D That wasn't as bad as I thought it would be :D
Love Jerry

[merry-go round horse]

[I've been there going on 3 years now.

God has a place for you too. My prayer is that He will lead you to the place where you can find HEALING and REST for your soul.



Never thought we'd get here too after our last shipwreck. It's been 1 month with a new church, all this stuff is like realizing for the first time that awful things happen here and that you need to always wear your safety gear . Thanks for the hope.

Merry-go round horse