Broken Heart

[livingondreams87]

I was so blessed to be able to find this forum of other people who know what spiritual abuse is. I am so emotionally and spiritually exhausted right now...from "Christian" leaders who suck you dry.

I am almost eighteen years old. Throughout my life, my family has been very open, truth seekers, etc. My dad went to seminary and got his Masters of Divinity, but when he graduated felt like God told him not to become a pastor. My parents had a serious falling out with a Vineyard church when I was 5. It made my parents very aware of spiritual abuse and ministers "superioirity" Several years later we joined a church that was starting from the ground up. We were part of it for about 2 years, until once again, the pastor was "God." At this time I was 11 and very grounded in the church, so when we left it tore me up.

Over the years I have realized why God put us through the situations, because He has a plan. Thank God someone does! :)

When I was 13 I met my bestfriend/now boyfriend. We have been best friends for 5 years now and kept a very God centered relationship. His parents were missionaries in Paraguay for 13+ years but had to move back in 2000 because of his mother's health issues. They are fundamental independent baptists. never again do I want to hear fundamental independent baptists. What happened to just BELIEVER IN JESUS CHRIST!? Anyways.

His parents accepted me fine as his friend...but as we became closer and hit 16 and started developing feelings they have gotten continually more aggresive in trying to shun me. Caleb (my best friend) left for college August 2004. I believe his parents were PRAYING he would meet someone else at college, that was a fundamental baptist, and would forget non-denomenational me. ha. well that didn't happen.

two weeks before Caleb came back for summer (about a month ago now) his mom called me up and wanted to meet for coffee, so I went. During this time, she quizzed me about how much I should go to church, what a man's role in the household is and if a woman should work or not. I was taken a back...that she would even bring this up to me. I told her I didn't believe it was neccesary to attend church 3 or more times a week, but that it WAS important to fellowship with believers. this offended her. she believes you need to be at church ANYTIME the doors are open. (whoa, different mindset here)

When Caleb came back...things got continually worse. His parents really have never been there emotionally for him....just "spiritually" supposedly. His parents proceeded to tell him "if you two get married, you'll get divorced in three years" or "she's demanding and controlls you" or "you'll get her pregnant in the next two years" Mind you, we haven't even kissed yet and they know it. Well Caleb got upset, told them that wasn't true, etc.

Well, sorta got over that hurdle and Caleb decided to move out, got his dad's blessing etc. Few days after Caleb moved out, his parents decided they wanted him back. (he's 20 days away from 18.) They got him, pretty much put him under house arrest and told him 190 times (he counted) that he wasn't following God, that he was following Satan, that he was in the wrong etc. Is this sounding like spiritual abuse?

This post has become so long....I need to shut it off. At this present time, his whole family is upset with him, and as what often happens in abuse situations, Caleb is starting to feel the guilt of it all....and actually went to the fundamental independent baptist church this morning, that has been GOSSIPING about us all week. Dear God, save us all.

The sad thing about this is...Caleb and I both have a very intimate relationship with God. We really feel His blessing on our life and have already greatly been used by Him. Anyone that meets Caleb, loves him. He's accepting and loving to everyone he meets. Yet all his parents can do is put rules on him.

Sorry about the long post....my heart is breaking.

[Jerry]

my heart is breaking.
Mine Too,,,,,,,
Love Jerry

[butterfly]

Hello Livingondreams, My Heart Is Broken Right Beside You. I Know How Mind Set The Fundamental Inderpendent Baptist Can Be. I Had To Break Away From A Friendship That Was Over 25 Years Old In March. We Were Like Sisters Our Famileys Would Do Things Toghter. I Am Layed Back And Don"t Do Well With Christians Telling Me What To Do. Realey I Do Not Fit In There Mold. She Started Judging Me. She Is Poison With The Rules. She Started With My Sons Hair It Was Not Short Enough. If He Loved The Lord He Would Get His Hair Cut Short. He Loves The Lord. Hair Has Nothing To Do With Loving God. It Got Worse And Worse To Painfull Now To Share. They Shun Like You Said. This Is What You Have To Do To Fit In. Go To Church When The Doors Are Open. When You Have Children The Mother Does Not Work Out Side The Home. The Husband Is The Head Of The Household You Have No Say. If You Do Then You Are Being A Bad Wife. Where My Friend Goes To Church There Pastors Daughter Could Not Be Alone With Her Boyfriend Till After They Get Married. One Of Her Brothers Or Sisters Had To Go With Them. One Daughter Had Enough Of Them And Moved Out And Lived With Her Mother In-law To Be Home.. And Daddy And Familey Didn"t Go To The Wedding. Caleb Has A Hard Rd To Walk. This Is Christian Abuse. It Is Sad They Are Destroying Him And Not Allowing God To Work In His Life. And Judging You Because You Do Not Fit The Mold. God Has A Plan. Thru My Christian Life I Can See The Hurtfull Times Was Perparing Me To Help Someone Else Who Is Going Thru Abuse From Christians.this Forum Is A God Sent For Me. I Have Been Blessed Reading The Post And I Am Not Alone. I Thought It Only Happen In My State. How Wrong I Was. I Will Be Thinking Of You Often. May Your Dreams Come True. Butterfly

[jane]

my heart aches for you and for Caleb.

I don't know this church that you speak of, but I get the jest.

I know it must be hard on you, can you imagen what it must be like for Caleb. He grew up depending on the approval of his parents, we all do. I can not imagen how he feels wanting to be with you and being told those things.

If he grew up in this, it is going to be very difficult for him to fight against the tide- if you encourage him to, It might verify what they are saying about you (in their twisted minds.) 18 years is a lot of time to be brainwashed.

I don't have any advice for you, I wish I did. If it is ok, I will keep you both in my prayers?

Jane
ps I have a son named Caleb too--it is a good name, remember he, not Joshua was the first person to speak up against the negative comments about the promised land. Maybe your Caleb will live up to his own namesake and speak up against the naysayers and proclaim the truth of God.

[Katie]

Livingondreams,

It sounds like you and Caleb have a very strong friendship. I agree with Jane that you don't want to become the wedge between him and his parents. It sounds like they are already doing enough to damage their relationship with Caleb.

Have you discussed your spiritual future with him? Does he see himself following the fundamental baptist beliefs? Is that important to him? It sounds like he will have some decisions to make, and the future of your relationship may depend on the decisions he makes.

I know that it is really difficult, but do everything possible to not add to the pressure he is under. Trust in the friendship you have, and be a safe and accepting place for him to turn to. Encourage him to love and honor his parents, but also that as a young adult, he has the right to make his own choices about his spiritual and religious beliefs. His parents will have to accept that also if they want to continue to have a good relationship with him.

I didn't really mean this to be advice, just sharing my thoughts. Take whatever is helpful to you, and please feel free to come here and share or vent.

Katie

[livingondreams87]

thank you so much for all your replies. i have tried very hard not to add extra pressure...but i know i have in some ways.

caleb has expressed very strongly that he does not want to follow the baptist denomination in any way. I haven't heard from him since this morning...so all I can guess is that he went home (for the first time in a week) and his whole family is telling him "how it is." I am so burdened...but also realize that maybe its time to let go.

Caleb's dad asked my dad last week if I was saved. That killed any respect I had left for them. I have sat in their house countless times and shared my heart and God's calling on my life, and then he asks somethign like that! No wonder they're so freaked out, they don't even listen!

His siblings have threatened to disown him, unless he apologizes to his parents for being "rebellious" Caleb is one of the most respectful and humble people I have ever met. Thats not just my biased opinion either. ;)

I know God has a plan....I just tend to want to weep til i have no more tears.

[livingondreams87]

Butterfly, I am so sorry to hear about your situation as well. I believe God sets some of us free from the religious bondage in order that we can help set others free.

My prayers are with all of you, thank you for yours!

[livingondreams87]

You do not want a sacrifice, or I would give it; You are not pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart. Psalm 51:16-17

[Voyager]

The sad thing about this is...Caleb and I both have a very intimate relationship with God. We really feel His blessing on our life and have already greatly been used by Him. Anyone that meets Caleb, loves him. He's accepting and loving to everyone he meets. Yet all his parents can do is put rules on him.
Sounds like it's time for Caleb to cut the umbilical cord and live his own life. He's a big boy now. He doesn't need to stay attached to momma's apron strings anymore.

What disgusts me is how often "Christian" parents use their distorted interpretation of the Bible to control their kids and keep them codependent. It's an epidemic.

:(

[jane]

I just tend to want to weep til i have no more tears.


I think I read somewhere that those tears are stored up and then poured out upon our heads as an oil of joy.... ;)


jane

[bad girl]

livingdreams,
bless your heart !(southern expression). I grew up in this type church, though not as strict as yours, but the thing about having to be at church 3 times a week and tithe, and be a tetotaler, .....I don't go to that type of church now, and I feel the spirit within me is free from legalism. That is, until I realized the church I moved to was even more legalistic in other ways!!

I'm so impressed at your sexual purity. That's rare these days. Be careful that if you marry him, he knows you can't handle this and is willing to look for another type church. I grew up baptist, and there are some really good ones also.

Here's a story. I double dated with a couple (and they were Baptists also) Her parents didn't "approve" of him (he wasn't that great at academics)and the girl ended up marrying someone else. Well, that husband had an affair and left her with 2 little kids. After a year being divorced, she got back together with the previous boyfriend who never married (now about 40 years old) and are happily married with a baby! :) Too bad she went through all that suffering because her parents saw fit to judge her true love unfit.

God Bless,
Pat

[bad girl]

if you stay with him, he'd better be willing to stick up for you to his parents. If he doesn't, you're in for a lifetime of heartache. I know, my husband always defends his mom when she says hurtful things to me. I have other friends with the same situation. I used to cry all the way home from his parents about something she said and he just backed her up. It caused me to feel he loved her more than he loved me. :(


Pat

[Jerry]

For Livingondreams & Caleb,,,
Here is a basic "Axium" to sharpen your disearnment,,,,,When you come out of a Church,,,,,if you don't feel more spiritually secure than when you went in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's NOT a Church ;)
Love Jerry

[Reg]

livingdreams,

You poor thing. My heart goes out to you. You shouldn't have to be subjected to their insensitive manipulative, control tactics. Where's the love?

You sound like you have your head screwed on properly. I am also impressed with your sexual restraint and maturity. Hand on to it. It is very precious.

Remember, God is close to the broken hearted.

Ps 34:18 The LORD [is] near to the broken-hearted; and saves those who are of a contrite spirit. (MKJV)

Ps 147:3 He heals the broken-hearted, and binds up their wounds. (MKJV)

Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah [is] on Me; because the LORD has anointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; (MKJV)

[livingondreams87]

Thank you all once again. Its encouraging to read your replies.

Caleb didn't contact me at all yesterday after he went to church. I assumed he went to his parent's house afterwards. I assumed right. He went home to his ENTIRE family. All of his siblings came home (from out of town) to support "the parents" and in turn I suppose brainwashed him AGAIN.

My mom called him up this morning, to tell him he should have atleast called. I spoke to him for a moment and said, "If your parents are not willing to apologize and own up to how they have hurt me and you, then its over for me and you."

In other words...he's chosen his parent's legalism. He was SOO close to letting it go...I feel like there just wasn't enough time for him to heal.

So now...I'm left. (sigh) Trying to rest in God and not fall into depression. I'm very very heartbroken.

[livingondreams87]

if you stay with him, he'd better be willing to stick up for you to his parents. If he doesn't, you're in for a lifetime of heartache.

I know, all too well.

[livingondreams87]

For Livingondreams & Caleb,,,
Here is a basic "Axium" to sharpen your disearnment,,,,,When you come out of a Church,,,,,if you don't feel more spiritually secure than when you went in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's NOT a Church ;)
Love Jerry

Completely agree! I've even told Caleb that. He grew up in Paraguay and so he had a very limited social life. Church was his main social life. Now that he is back in the States, he is blind to all the legalism around him, because he doesn't want to lose his family and friends (who can blame him?!). Its awful that his parents and friends stick him in a situation where he has to choose.

Jesus calls us to be setapart....there are those of us that are called to be setapart even more. It reminds me of the quote, "God doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called."

[butterfly]

Hi Broken Heart, I Am So Sorry This Is Happening To You. I Feel Bad For Caleb Also . For His Famly To Gang Up On Him This Way. Another Sad Part Is They Treated You Well For All Those Years. Then To Do This. He Didn"t Have Time To Heal It Takes Awhile To Sort Out All The Feelings. I Care About You And Caleb I Know How Those People Operate.butterfly

[merry-go round horse]

How ya hanging in there broken hearted living on dreams

know one thing. Jesus is Jesus and chrurches are churches. Once a single black woman in ministry tried to explain the difference to me when I went through my first bad spiritual experience. Be strong and know that if this young man trully loves you...He will have to come to his own conclusions in time. I have been trying to talk to people at our church about the things I see that are wrong. Give people time and know the truth in your heart. It sounds as if you have waited for love thus far. God will trully bless this if you let Him fight your vattles. Ihave learned He fights much harder than we do...and then no one has us to blame for coesion. Sounds hard at your young age...please give it a try. Fight with prayer...and let Caleb come to you.

Blessings, Merry

[Kerrin]

. Be strong and know that if this young man trully loves you...He will have to come to his own conclusions in time. It sounds as if you have waited for love thus far. God will trully bless this if you let Him fight your vattles. Ihave learned He fights much harder than we do...and then no one has us to blame for coesion. Sounds hard at your young age...please give it a try. Fight with prayer...and let Caleb come to you.

Blessings, Merry[/QUOTE]


:)
It's a hard pill to swalow ,and we all know intellectually to 'hand it over to God" ,To let Him fight our battles!
And we can say it! And think we've meant it BUT with ,me I found I had prayed it and said It was in God's hands ,I have left it to him..........only to discover after much frustration and no sense of peace, I hadnt at all! :confused: :(

When I was so tired of crying and no-one listening , and, being so alone ,depressed, distraught..........then ,and only then, did I actually REALLY cry out to God and say i can't do it, I can't take any more, I know ' what I want and I don't know whether you're going to give it to me, BUT here take it ALL I can't be any more broken.Then I slept at peace for the first time in a long time.

Some things I got, ie ( full custody of my daughter), other's I lost (the love of my life).
But that is too long a story for here! :(

All of this may have absolutly nothing to offer you!
If I've waffled, as often do , I'm sorry, just skip me :o .
Blessings,
Kerrin ;)
My prayer is you will continue to pray and have Hope!

[merry-go round horse]

Dear Broken Hearted...I'm sorry. I am guilty of quoting those wonderful cliches I hate to hear. Please know You are in my prayers. It sounds as if you an Caleb have something special. It would be wonderful if God graciously allowed you to be together someday. I'm sorry to hurt you too Kerrin...We definitely live in a fallen world. All is not well until we are home. I hope God will restore that which you have lost somehow...or at least provide you some comfort. I know I am not happy with my circumstances. It irks me to hear people say..."it's all for the best" This is not what we need to hear is it. ''Please forgive me :(

No advice..but you are loved
merry grh

[livingondreams87]

(sigh)

Thank you for the continued posts. The latest as of now.

I talked to Caleb yesterday (Wednesday morning). He said he wanted to meet with me that night. We went to dinner and had a pretty good conversation and i was able to lay alot in the open. I feel like God was with me with alot of what I said, but I know I let my flesh/heart get involved some too. Anyhow. I dropped him off at the place he is living. Later that night (around 10) I called. He was sleeping, but he said, "My parents told me I have to choose between you and them" I said, "are you serious?!" He said yes. Can you IMAGINE a son having to choose between a girl he loves and his family? Broke my heart. So I told him God would give him peace no matter what, because He promises us that. I also said, "Caleb, do WHATEVER you KNOW God is telling you to do. Don't listen to what I have said, what your parents have said, or what "church" has been telling you your whole life." He accepted it.

Didn't talk to him again until today (thursday) at around 4. He told me he was going to his house to pick up his car and then he was coming to my house. I said, "alright" Called me back at 5 and said "I'm at my parent's house, my car won't start. Dad wants you to come over and talk to me and him. This was our conversation.

Me: No way.
C: Please. I really feel like it would be good if he heard what you had to say.
Me: He won't LIKE what he hears.
C: I know, but I feel like he really needs to see you and your heart for God. Please be humble.
(in the background his dad is talking, 'has she made a decision yet?' 'i need to know' 'get off the phone')
Me: He doesn't sound too humble himself! Okay. Do you promise we'll be united though? That you will support me.
C: Yes.
Me: Okay, I'll see you around 6.

So, we got off the phone. I went to my house to change clothes. Just as I was getting ready to head back out, Caleb called again.

(see next post)

[livingondreams87]

Our phone conversation

C: Nevermind, don't come over.
Me: Why?
C: Just because.
Me: Caleb, tell me why.
C: Because if you come over here, my parents will spit on you.
Me: Okay. Are you alright?
C: No.
Me: Okay, I'm coming over.
C: No, trust me. Don't come over.
Me: Give me a good reason, or I'm coming over.
(in the background, his dad goes, 'get off that phone' and I hear a click)

Now just to clarify, I wasn't DEMANDING on the phone, I really wanted a reason and wanted to make SURE his dad wasn't forcing him to say stuff. I wasn't convinced.

So I headed over to their house.

I drove up in their driveway and they were all sitting on their porch. Caleb walked up to me and said,

C: Please keep driving
Me: No way, your dad wanted to talk to me, and I have some things to say.
C: Please keep driving Courtney. (pleading in the sense of wanting to protect me)
Me: Caleb, do you want me to listen to you over God's leading?

Just as I finish that sentence, his mom SCREAMS/WAILS and says, "Go to H*LL"
I was so shocked I laughed. I said, "Oh my word, did she REALLY just say that?"

His dad and his mom walk into the house, with her sobbing. Then his dad walks out. Conversation is as follows.

HD: I want you to leave now
Me: Mr ___ You asked me to come over here
HD: Yes, and then I asked you not to.
Me: I was already on my way back over, and I don't think its fair for you to change plans on me.
HD: I don't care whats fair to you. You have proven over and over that you can't handle authority. (don't know where he gets this, just because i won't accept his legalism i guess) I don't trust you. you think you can come over here and be a big girl.
Me: That is not the attitude I have. I really feel like I need to say some things. will you please listen to me.
HD: NO. I will not. Leave.
Me: (I just stared at him)
HD: Fine, I'll do what your dad did. Come back in 45 minutes. (VERY mocking tone. To clarify what he meant by that, is several days ago, he showed up at our house at 8 oclock in the morning, demanding to talk to us. My dad told him to come back in 45 minutes, when we were ready)
Me: Alrighty. I'll come back in 45 minutes.

Well, I'm sitting here at my computer now...trying to get up the energy to conquer College Algebra. ;) I didn't go back over to their house, because my parents and I are both scared for my safety.

I am SO worried about Caleb right now. I'm almost scared its turning into physical abuse. What should I do? Some of you may say "let go" but I don't think God is calling me to do that! Ah.

[merry-go round horse]

Hmm...Poor Caleb. But it doesn't sound like he is ready to put you first. If you wait it out...what would happen? I might even say, play hard to get cause if you are worth it...you'll be worth it in the long run..

Hugs MGRH

[butterfly]

BROKEN HEARTED, I WANT TO SAY TO YOU I AM PROUD OF YOU. THAT YOU ARE STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF. LET NO ONE TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU. CAN CALEB GO SOMEWHERE SAFE? FRIENDS HOUSE OR SOME CHRISTIAN FAMILY HE FEELS LOVED AND SAFE WITH? GOD KNOWS YOU BOTH WANT TO LIVE FOR HIM.YOU ASKED FOR PRAYER AND I AM PRAYING FOR YOU BOTH. THANK YOU FOR GIVING AN UPDATE. I WAS WONDERING HOW YOU WERE. butterfly

[livingondreams87]

Its an unending cycle.

MGRH, I don't think that he's not willing to sacrifice for me...I think he is so torn between his loyalty to his family and his loyalty to me. I can hardly blame him.

Butterfly, there ARE places he can stay...he is just contemplating "sticking it out" for 20 more days until he turns 18. I'm afraid by then it will be too late. :confused:

[merry-go round horse]

I see. You both are special. I know that God in his mercy has a plan...for the long run. It is so so hard to wait for that. In the meantime...we'll just pray that he is protectected. Love endures a huge amount of suffering...and you sounds worth it to him. :o
mgrh

[Jerry]

Butterfly, there ARE places he can stay...he is just contemplating "sticking it out" for 20 more days until he turns 18. I'm afraid by then it will be too late. :confused:
Dear livingondreams,
Most contemproary Churches teach that the Book "The Song of Solomon",is about Christs Love for the Church and no more.This is absurdly shallow and incomplete teaching.The Bible is written on "3" different levels.Celestial,Terrestrial,and Profetic.Any given passage can have only one meaning or it can have up to "3" meanings depending on the syntatical and literary structure utilized by the writer.Also the "Historic" and "Contemproary" meanings can be different.When Solomon wrote the book,he was not writing about Christs Love for the Church(the celestial meaning/profetic) meaning.Solomon was writing about his love for a woman(the love of his life).With that new information in mind,I want you to reread "The Song of Solomon" it will also clarify what Paul ment when he wrote,,,,"Husbands,love your wife as Christ Loved the Church".I hope Caleb loves you like that ;)
Love Jerry

[livingondreams87]

Found this in an article on spiritual abuse. It's talking about gods (pastors/spiritual leaders) being abusive.

If these gods are merely distortions of the true God, then what we should do is to try to undistort them. Maybe we can rework them somehow. Negotiate with them. Restructure them. Reframe them. This is not, however, the approach suggested in Scripture. What ought we to do when we find that we serve a god who is not God? There is only one answer in the Bible. Throw the bum out. Get rid of him. It is an idolatrous attachment, and it can’t be reformed, restructured, rehabilitated or restored. This is not a point where it is appropriate to be moderate. We need to clean house. The god who gives us nothing but fear or shame is not God. Fire him. Or her. But what about the baby in the bathwater? There is no baby. If we live in relationship with a god who gives us nothing but fear and shame, there is no baby in that bathwater. We need to throw the bum out.

But what about all my good theology? Do I have to throw that out? Well, not necessarily. But we may need to give it a rest. We need to take time to clean house. We need to find out why we have tolerated an abusive god for so long. We probably need to get back to spiritual kindergarten. We may have missed—or have forgotten—the basics.

I won’t pretend that cleaning house of idolatrous attachments is easy. It isn’t. It takes time, and we will not be able to do it alone. We will need help. The not-Gods may return to disrupt our lives. We may need to “throw the bum out” more than once. We may need to return many times to the most basic of spiritual truths. But the living and true God will see our spiritual brokenness and will not shame us. In our spiritual poverty the true God will see sure signs of the coming of his kingdom. May God be praised.

[livingondreams87]

and this is WONDERFUL! I was reading a book on youth ministry (something I feel very called to) and I found this.

Before the end of young teenhood, youth come to complete physical development. The sex powers are at their height. Marrage is likely to take place. Settling down and going "steady" with one person is the usual social pattern. How grownup they are is now measured in terms of behavior. The thinking and behavior of these young people reflect some sort of philosophy of life which the began working on in middle adolescence. How do they look at life? If they have had the right kind of guidance, at its center is faith in God and commitment to a principle of serving others. In later adolescence, leadership has been discovered and, to some extent, trained. This is true when adults have allowed youth to assume leadership at whater age it has been demonstrated. If an adolescent says, "I'm just a slave living under a dictatorship; they are always telling me what to do," it is glaring proof that initiative has been curbed and somebody is responsible for checking the potential that God deposited in that life.

[molehills]

whoa, could you post a link to that article?

[Kerrin]

meaning.Solomon was writing about his love for a woman(the love of his life).With that new information in mind,I want you to reread "The Song of Solomon" it will also clarify what Paul ment when he wrote,,,,"Husbands,love your wife as Christ Loved the Church".I hope Caleb loves you like that ;)
Love Jerry[/QUOTE]

Song of Solomon, is a beautiful book about love!
It is sensual, and shows how God intended for us how to express our love during courtship and , then within marriage.
( for some of us we ,never got that gift early enough!) :( :o
Not meaning to seem arrogant, I thought ,as God invented love" ,therefore "sex" etc.... "the Song Of Solomon" was His way of demonstrating in a beautiful 'human' way, love!
Especially love between a man and wife! (because it's not just the male perspective).

I also always interpreted it to exhibit the love between two "courting" people very much in love,

It is a book heavy on symbolism.
I think ,(my opinion ; :o to interpret it as how Christ loved the Church is not accurate,.........as Jerry says ,it follows with the obviuos: "Husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the Church".

It is typically narrow of "religious" groups/Churches to twist this book and make 'sex' and love and passion "wrong"!!!

I hope Caleb loves you with this passion and ,(most of all respect !), that King Solomon did his "love". :)

Love
Kerrin ;)

[livingondreams87]

Which article are you wanting a link to?

The throw the baby out with the bathwater one, is right here.

http://www.spiritualabuse.com/dox/dr1.htm

The other paragraph was from a book.

[molehills]

I was interested in both. I mistakenly thought they were both from the same article.
Thanks for the link.

[LilJ@B-FLCRF]

Well, this is definately a first for me. Let me begin by establishing a brief background. I am young, headstrong, with a talent for remonstrance. I strongly believe these forums are a place people come to express inward emotions and conflicts in exactly the wrong place. The people rely on the righteous feeling others give them for the feel good reassurance of their actions. Especially in "christian" forums, people often reply with uplifting and support. That should be met with concrete opinions both supportive and objective to the cause.

I also ask in the midst of my point of view that this not be taken as a bash, but as a light shining from a different angle, not meant to be hurtful, although it very well could be.

I am a firm believer that there is two sides to every story. I find a few points in your narrative to be very questionable. My presence here is to leave you with some questions to answer yourself. Is it possible this is a overflowing tale of deciet? Are you the direct cause of the situation you have surrounded yourself with? Are you giving his parents a fair chance? How well do you know your boyfriend?

An overflowing tale of deciet. You have left readers and commentors with your very shady view of this topic. You made a point stating "his parents have never been there for him emotionally, just spiritually supposedly". Would have never caught my eye EXCEPT for that wonderful little adverb you tacked on to the end. Supposedly. That one word added a whole new meaning to your statement. So you don't really know if they have been there for him emotionally. In five years of best friendship, you honestly don't know for sure if they had been there for him in any type of emotional way? Is it also possible your boyfriend had pushed his parents so far away that it's difficult for them to reach them on that level? That their only resort is the spiritual end of things? If after five years of friendship you don't know if they have or not, is it possible this is some line he's given you to feel sorry for him?

Someone in a response to your story mentioned that "18 years is a long time to be brainwashed." 5 years is also a long time. In these past five years, is it possible your boyfriend has been using you as a crutch to rebel against the authority place over him?

And my next point. And I quote "The sad thing about this is, Caleb and I both have an intimate relationship with God." Does your God say to fight against the authority of that which he place over you? Or does it say to honor thy mother and father?

I find it kind of hard to believe, that a parent would give it's blessing for it's young to leave, then immediatly demand them back. Did he actually ask to leave? Did he actually get their blessing?

Does the pot call the kettle black? Does the gossiped about gossip themselves?

Is it possible to also be blinded so strongly by love that it has clouded your relationship with God? Is it possible there is such a struggle because it isn't meant to be in his plan, OR the timing just might not be right? Is it also possible you don't want to accept the truth in front of you?

Be honest within yourself and God. Search deep down for the true answers. Lying to yourself can only damage your own integrity.

[jane]

My first response to your post is,

"why are you here?"

If you think this is a wrong place to post, why did you post?

Are you now lying to yourself?

just wondering.


Jane

[jane]

LilJ@B-FLCRF-


You speak to that girl about going against authority. Have you read the guidelines here? Some respect would be appreciated. I posted them in case you didn't know they existed. A few that I don't want you to miss- "seek or offer amateur therapy"- "empathize rather than advise"- "talk about yourself and your own issues"



Welcome. If you have not yet registered, do it! You will not be able to post until you have registered. I know it is a little more work but I suspect that over the long haul you will see some significant benefits for having a more secure and fully-featured forum. A few suggestions:

1) Use the 'Testing' forum to get familiar with this software rather than this forum.

2) Posts to this forum are NOT moderated prior to being posted. We are able to turn on moderation at any time -- for all participants or for individual participants -- if the need should arise.

3) Please remember this is a place to:
POST about HURTS and HELPS
ASK for feedback or suggestions.
SUPPORT others with what has been helpful to you.
FIND sanity and support in discovering you are not alone.
And this is not a place to:
Expose specific persons or groups publicly.
Launch campaigns to bring them to justice.
Seek or offer amateur therapy.
4) Some of the best advice I've ever received about online groups:
Take what works and leave the rest.
If you don't read what you need to read, write what you need to read.
Respond rather than react.
Empathize rather than advise.
Focus. (We love your pets too! But this forum is about spiritual abuse. Talk to us about how you are doing with that.)
Talk about yourself and your own issues.


So why not tell us now a little bit about why you are here??

Jane

[jane]

And my next point. And I quote "The sad thing about this is, Caleb and I both have an intimate relationship with God." Does your God say to fight against the authority of that which he place over you? Or does it say to honor thy mother and father?


In my opinion- the boy is almost 18- does honoring your mother and father have anything to do with obeying them without questionning the control that they exhibit over your life about very personal decisions?


Jesus also spoke often about questioning false teachings, about calling no one father or rabbi (teacher) and about laying down our lives one to another in mutual submission.

Where does this authority come from that you describe?

Your letter attacks this woman's belief that she has an intimate relationship with God. Does an intimate relationship with God mean that we are perfect and committing no sin or error? wow. even Peter denied Christ 3 times and was intimate with Him.


Can't help but wonder- are you Caleb's parents or sibling? This girl's post was in May- HELLO? and you posted no where else. Why don't you leave her alone and if you are really concerned, pray quietly for her- that she would know how deep and wide the love of God is towards her.

jane

[jane]

Especially in "christian" forums, people often reply with uplifting and support

I certainly have not seen that in this forum. I have seen support when it was warranted- but man I have also seen confrontation and questionning. No one pretending to be "good little christians" here.

read a little more about who we are before you presume.

jane

[jane]

That should be met with concrete opinions both supportive and objective to the cause.

well, that is your opinion about how we should respond. I am a big girl now, I'll resond as I want and when I want. thankyou.


jane

[jane]

Does the pot call the kettle black? Does the gossiped about gossip themselves


I don't even know how to speculate your meaning here. Are you suggesting that because someone posts here their views and their feelings that they are gossiping?

again, sounds to me like you know her and want to attack her.

Not really "christ like" or loving in my opinion-

oh would that comment of mine be meeting yours with "concrete opinions"; or is it "gossip and rebellion".

hmmmmm praise God and that is all I have to say about that.

jane

[InTheory]

Jane, you are a tough one :)
Kudos to you for standing up for the person that originated this thread.

Us Christians are often so ready to jump in and preach-sometimes we just need to listen. :eek:

Big newsflash to anyone that may stumble here and feel the strong desire to deliver a "word" or "correction" to someones story of abuse. EVERY person has a point of view that is entirely their own, and every point of view is inherently flawed and correct at the same time.
It's all about perspective.

Anyway, I love your spirit, Jane!

Dan

[jane]

the toughness came from the scabs of many wounds.......

thankyou for your support. I just hurt so much when it seems like someone is being attacked for just speaking their mind.

jane

[LilJ@B-FLCRF]

Jane, Jane, Jane. Hmmm. You did exactly what I asked not to be done. I can not exaggerate enough in this post that I do not want what I said in the other "thread" or this one to be taken as a attack, or bash if-you-will.

I came to this forum as an unbeliever and will leave as the same. I have had two similiar circumstances in my life as this lady has. I wish I did know her, my "attack" as you put it, might not have seemed so offensive.

I do not believe these forums are a gossip center stage at all. I think the anonymous part, of not really knowing who these people are cancel out the gossiping. My point, being lost in translation, was that everyone gossip, including you, her, me, neigherbors, "pastors", co-workers. It's going to be more so in a church setting. Let them gossip, just know a true friend would come to you about it. Not to others.

My not very "christ-like" comment, was exactly that. It was mine, not his. As far as loving, call me heartless, devil, heathen, sinner, but in reality the true context of my statement was nothing more than the truth. Everyone gossips.

And the question of the hour. Why am I here? To very simply put it, I wanted to see the "christians" realm. It's amazing just how much farther away I am now. My difference in point of views conflicted with yours and these "christ-like" and loving responses, man, wow, I"m just simply astonished. The thought in your mind now is "go to church", wow tried that. Let's go and watch people put on a mask and listen to the gospel. I thought there would be this warm, loving welcome. But in reality it was whispers and stares that drove me away. Again this is not a bash, this is not an attack. Just one of my experiences.

I will not apologize for my thoughts. I just must be slow and stupid, I don't understand the whole distinction between our two worlds. All I offered this lady was the exact questions that helped me out with my two past realtionships. Man, I must be horrible. Way to go Jane, way to go. With this in mind, reread what I posted before. IT was not an attack, neither is this.

Charlie

[jane]

The thought in your mind now is "go to church", wow tried that.

this is the furthest thought from my mind. Do you even know what this forum is about?

It is about exactly what you are saying. It is for people who don't want to do this anymore.

Let's go and watch people put on a mask and listen to the gospel. I thought there would be this warm, loving welcome. But in reality it was whispers and stares that drove me away.


I think you are confused about what this forum is for and frankly I am more confused by your posts because the first post appeared to me to be the very attack that I heard churches do to other people.

Whether or not you are a believer before or after you came here matters not to me. I just don't want to see someone else open up and get attacked for their beliefs.

On one hand you say you are not a believer but in your first post you quoted scriptures much like legalistic church's do against anyone out of their "norm".

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

jane