bound in heaven/earth? what do u think

[DLL]

i would like to know what do you think the verse in the bible means that says "and whatsoever shall be bound on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever shall be losed on earth shall be losed in heaven"? do you think this has any reference to loss of salvation? or loss of anything?
anytime this pastor (s)talks to me, he brings this up alot and if i question him on it, he just says that "it says what it says".
donna

[Kerrin]

Donna,
I personally don't think you can lose your salvation! :)
But I'm no theologian!

My Pastor used a lot of "binding and loosing" principles as basis for prayer, especially in His 'healing' ministry,(mostly based on Liberty Savard's teaching)

She has a Theology degree ,so does my former Pastor ,But I think they again, have twisted scripture to suit themselves!! :confused:
I have no doubt there will be lots of welcome discussion on this ;)

( Some of what Liberty says make sense but I also felt a lot of "shame" reading it.........THAT now, is my barometer that it's not Kocher :D When in "shame" don't!) :D (sorry that's a bit of dry Aussie wit!) :o

Love,
Kerrin ;)

[jane]

OK, I am not saying that I agree with this or condone it but this is what I was taught about that;

it means to be careful about what you say.


Because in the begining God created by speaking the world into place. We are made in His image. He gave us the power to bind and loose things in heaven.

So If I confess that I am sick, than I am creating sickness. If I confess that I am well, then I am creating wellness.

Never heard it was related to salvation unless I confess that my mother will never be saved! (in dismay) then perhaps I am Cursing her.

Honestly in my opinion, it is not that much different than witch craft. The problem that I have with this is that 1)Paul still had an ailment 2)John was beheaded 3)Peter was crucified upside down

and we are not God, we are the created.

Just my opinion.
Jane

[Jerry]

Dear DLL,,,,
Your "Pasturd" says it says what it says,,,,,,because the idiot doesn't know what it says !!!!!!!! :D Christ in this passage is talking to Peter.......Peter will in the neer future be left in charge of the minestery,,,,,Christ is telling him that ,,,,"Peter,,,,,you will have great power over their beliefs,,,,if you say it is so here,,,,,they will believe it is so there",,,,,,,,,THAT IS PROPER TEACHING.......
Love Jerry
P.S. DLL,,,,You need to forget everything that man ever taught you.

[jane]

Wow Jerry,

That is the first time that I heard that. Thanks for sharing the light. It just goes to show you that controlling people take scripture out of context.

You're right about him not knowing! People who don't like to admit they don't know something often make you feel stupid for not "getting it".

Jane

[Florence]

Let me start out by saying that I am not a theologian, but I looked at this verse in context (Matthew 16:17-20) and here's my "opinion":

The place that Jesus and Peter were at is a place in the Holy Land (referred to in the Bible as Caesarea Philippi) that you can tour if you go there. I can't recall the name of it, but in the face of this enormous rock-like wall are several nooks with statues representing "gods" that were (and perhaps still are?) worshipped - some pagan, many satanic. There is a very large hole at the base - like the entrance to a cave - and this was commonly referred to as the entrance to Hell - thus the reference to Hades. While some people believe that when Jesus said, "you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" he was referring to Peter, there is ample evidence that Jesus was not referring to Peter, but to the rock where Satan and other gods were worshipped - the very place they were standing. And to this hole at the base which was known as the entrance to hell. On THIS rock I will build my church - a rock that has been Satan's domain but will not be for much longer.

When Jesus said to Peter, "I will give you the keys to the kingdom" he very well may have been referring to himself being the way, truth, and life in opposition to the entrance to the cave they were looking at which was the way to hell. It is in this same sentence that Jesus then says, "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." He says nothing about hell or salvation or anything else at this point - only about the keys of the kingdom of heaven and, in a way, that now that Peter understands who Jesus is, there are no barriers between heaven and earth in his life.

My opinion is that Jesus was telling Peter that because he had figured out that Jesus was the Christ (see verse 16), he now held the key to eternal life. So often Christians live in such a way that indicates that they are afraid of Satan, hell, the trauma and turmoil of life, etc. when in fact, Jesus says there is no need to be afraid- Satan and hell are not stronger than God and we do not need to live in fear, hiding from the evil in the world, but rather, we should be going forward to impact the world - with life and joy and freedom and without fear.

I don't think it says anything about gaining or losing salvation, our being able to "create" anything - sickness, wellness, (fill in the blank) or anything like that.

Does that mean that our lives will be "heavenly"? Not at all. But we can live with joy and peace knowing that no matter what comes against us, it will not, cannot prevail because ultimately nothing can come between us and heaven.

I know this is a bit rambling and not explained very well, but I hope it gives you some food for thought.

Florence

[Willow]

I dunno DLL, That one's a little over my head for now. I may come back to it and find an opinion or belief somewhere in my brain. Gotta say though... personally that scripture means more about God being all powerful on my behalf than it does losing salvation etc.

[teddy123]

I do not believe onced saved always saved, I believe that a person can fall away from God. God does not fall away from a person but if a person falls away from God they must repent to God, repent means to turn away from if they do this the and asked God t have mercy and forgive them I believe God will.

[SpinningHead]

I've always thought it meant similar to what NewLife said (Hi NewLife! :) ) with the additional thought that what we bind in earth are our temptations or fallings. What we let loose on earth is the spiritual positive in our lives (like compassion, empathy, wisdom, love, kindness, etc).

I've never heard Jerry's perspective (Hi Jerry! :) ) before so that's food for thought too.

I think you can't loose your salvation but you can turn away from it, throw it away, etc. As a Christian, I don't believe that a sin in your journey will blow it for you (although I did think that b/c I was raised to believe that in a AOG church). Then, when I went to a Baptist school, I was taught that no matter what I did ever, I could never loose my salvation and that if I get too far from God, He'll bring me to heaven via some car accident or other premature death. :eek:

But then I read about reputed (is that the right word) righteousness letting me know that I'm responsible for what I know...and not judged for what I truly don't know....(I'll double check this...it's in the NT and I was reading it not too long back...)

And I also read about in the prophecies folks who have turned their backs on God (to me that means they had to be facing Him at some point)...

[yeshua'smags]

Whoa whoa whoa! If you can lose your salvation that would mean you could earn it in the first place. There are two types of people in the world; bad people who know they're bad, and bad people who don't know they're bad. We know we are bad. We know we need a savior! We have imputed rightousness it means it doesn't belong to us. It's through Him that we even have rightousness to begin with. So how could we lose it?
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!

[ninaspirit]

when we left our marriage, our ex had his church people "claiming" or
"binding/losing" us to return to the marriage. they used "where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name....." so which ever way we looked at at, we didn't have a choice as far as they were concerned we were told "if you are a christian, you would do the right thing......" another form of control. we don't know how binding/losing works in christianity but this didn't seem right if we have a right to choose.

we didn't go back so now that made us the ones not listening to God. in their eyes, we were sinful, at risk for losing our salvation.

just our thoughts. ninas.

[hpsngbrd]

OK,

So If I confess that I am sick, than I am creating sickness. If I confess that I am well, then I am creating wellness.

Never heard it was related to salvation unless I confess that my mother will never be saved! (in dismay) then perhaps I am Cursing her.

Honestly in my opinion, it is not that much different than witch craft. The problem that I have with this is that 1)Paul still had an ailment 2)John was beheaded 3)Peter was crucified upside down

and we are not God, we are the created.

Just my opinion.
Jane

I have to comment on this. I was taught all my life that my words are containers for power either for destruction or restoration. whether that be healing vs. sickness, wealth vs. poverty. I have felt my whole like that if I spoke/confessed what I was feeling that it would happen.

Ex. I don't feel very well to day. I feel like I may be coming down with something.

or.

Ex: Money is so tight it's going to be hard just to pay the bills right now.

I was to the point that I would not say anything like this and would go around telling other people not to say these things. :o

I thought that if I said these things out loud I was speaking a curse on myself.

I also thought if I confessed healing or prosperity that it would happen.

Sometimes it did but more times than not I remained in sickness or without prosperity. :(

I was taught that when my sickness or money situations did not improve that it was due to a lack of faith or that I had unconfessed sin in my life.

So is it any wonder that I have been a mess all this time. I remember telling a friend that I was so depressed and not feeling right that I was going to have to check myself into a mental hospital. I was expressing my deep feelings and thoughts and concerns. She told me that I should never say anything like this or I would wind up in a mental institution. :eek:

Why would me checking myself in for treatment be so terrible if that is what I needed??? Why does it have to be this horrible taboo to admit that you are not mentally well????:mad:

I wonder how many christians suffer in silence for fear of telling others what they are feeling and thinking. How many of those same people have taken their own life because they just could not get free. Maybe what they really needed to be free from was the narrow mindedness of other people and their distorted teachings of scripture. :mad: :eek: :(

I have been prayed for many times to be delivered from a spirit of depression and lo and behold I still suffer from chemical imbalance. :confused:

I have also suffered with health problems(low immunity and asthma) since my childhood and I still suffer and have been hospitalized 100's of x's and I had a miscarriage because of a sickness dealing with asthma.

I was assured during this pregnancy that God was going to heal me and the baby would be fine, that no way was God going to allow Satan to take my baby from me after I had fought so hard and everyone from church had prayed so hard.

Two weeks later I found out that I had miscarried. I was devastated. I was in such shock that I actually prayed that the doctors were wrong and believed that somehow they would see they made a mistake. I was sent to two doctors just to confirm. Both said miscarriage.

It was hard for me to pick up the pieces and move on from there. I could not pray for a very long time. My heart broke in a million pieces. I got through that time and learned that it was not my fault that I lost the baby that it just was not meant to me.

God had given me a dream the day before I had the doctor appt that told me that baby had died. In that dream I had the baby but the baby was not breathing normally and was struggling to breathe to point of exhaustion.

I woke up in a panic. I was sure that satan was tormenting me and no way did that dream have any merit. I pushed the dream aside and rebuked satan to get out of my head. (sorry if that triggered someone, it just did me. )

Anyway you know what happened next. So after I dealt with the loss and asked God to heal my heart He reminded me of the dream. I felt comforted that God had given me that dream to let me know that the baby if it had survived to full term probably would have had lung problems and not lived very long.

I was able get on with my life and begin to live again after this. 4 months later became pregnant with my daughter, now 4 and then had another child a year later, who is now 3. God most certainly helped me pick up the pieces.:D

I did however suffer from severe post partum depression that lasted 3 months with my daughter and almost a year with my son. I did not get healed from the depression and still am struggling daily with it. but I am still holding on to God and eventhough it's been a battle I have chosen to trust Him regardless of where I am or what I am going through. ;)

But I am blessed to have my two beautiful children even in the midst of my trials. They remind me of how much God loves me. :D

So I have had first hand experience with the bind/loose scriptures spoken to me and over me. I no longer believe that this is what these scriptures mean. :mad: :(

Don't believe everything that people say, always check the meanings of scripture out for yourself. The bible was never meant to be a book of spells and incantations. Say this and all your dreams will come true or say that and you will curse yourself down to third and fourth generations. :confused:

come on people do we really believe it works like this? I know I did at one time in my life but now I see how messed up this line of thinking was. I agree with with the comment, too much like withcraft to me. :eek:

For me it's works like this. If God wants me to have something and it's for my good and will bring him honor then I either will have it or I can choose to walk away from it. meaning sometimes God gives us things but we choose to not accept them.

Also if I am sick and it is His will for me to be healed then I will be. If not then I remain sick. Whatever the reason I still trust him.

I do not believe that it is God's will that everyone be healed and have wealth. it's just not biblical, if it is then I am reading an entirely different bible than the rest of the known the world. :)

I am reminded of Paul who three times asked Jesus to remove the thorn in his flesh, what was it? I don't know, but I do know that it was never removed. so what does that say to you? it says to me that it was not God's will that he be healed. I certainly don't think it meant that Paul did not have enough faith.

are you seriously kidding me. although I am sure some people would say this. sad. very sad.:(

I suffer from chronic sickness, extreme exhaustions, chemical imbalance and chronic pain most days and I do not have material wealth. So to some I guess they would say that I do not have faith to be healed or to live in prosperity. I say that God loves me and uses me in my imperfect state and that where I am is exactly where he wants me to be. I see my life as an opportunity to be an example of what it means to love and serve God despite my circumstances or what he does or does not do for me. He is not conditional with me why should I be with him.

I must say I do believe in God's power to heal and I do believe that God does bless with prosperity including material wealth, but I believe that our love, faith, trust, and dependence on Him should not be not based upon whether or not we recieve that healing or walk in that type of prosperity, but rather be, just becuse.

Simply put, just because. ;)

HP

[hornblower]

This is what that verse means...........it is in context with what is written above it. When a person sins against you you should go to that person aand confront them with it if they listen to you and learn from it and repent then you have gained a brother or sister but if they dont then bring two or three others with you to show that person they are doing wrong if they listen and repent then everything is done as its supposed to be done if then they dont take it to the entire church and if the person doesnt listen to them...............then loose them to the judgement due them for their offence.
Paul did this with sinners in the church.
Binding to me is holding onto something to get something from them..........a repentance in this case
and loosing is the letting go of the thing to be taken care of with Gods judjment.
Loose it, let it go, leave it alone, dont have anything to do with it at all, set it free to experience whatever will be teaching them what they need to learn.
My bible says it is church discipline.
It says it is a method of restoring or disciplining a disciple.

[tke316]

i would like to know what do you think the verse in the bible means that says "and whatsoever shall be bound on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever shall be losed on earth shall be losed in heaven"? do you think this has any reference to loss of salvation? or loss of anything?
anytime this pastor (s)talks to me, he brings this up alot and if i question him on it, he just says that "it says what it says".
donna

Matthew 16:15-19
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:15-19
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

As much as I hate to admit it, it is really easy to see the Catholic interpretation. Jesus was talking to the Apostles. He seems to be telling them, Peter in particular, that they are going to be given authority to set the standards, to bind and loose. But I would speculate that it is just Jesus telling the Apostles that their teachings (the Epistles they write, for instance) will have authority.

It's a must longer stretch for me to take that to the next level of believing om Apostolic succession, that the Pope and the Bishops can still be binding and loosing.

[tke316]

As much as I hate to admit it, it is really easy to see the Catholic interpretation. Jesus was talking to the Apostles. He seems to be telling them, Peter in particular, that they are going to be given authority to set the standards, to bind and loose. But I would speculate that it is just Jesus telling the Apostles that their teachings (the Epistles they write, for instance) will have authority.

It's a must longer stretch for me to take that to the next level of believing om Apostolic succession, that the Pope and the Bishops can still be binding and loosing.

I was hoping more folks would have thoughts on this topic. ;)

[Carmen]

Some scripture verses, may trigger.

Amen Jerry!

I hadn't heard that interpretation about the rock before, NewLife, but it is worth thinking about.

I don't think that the apostle's letters could be given so much significance, that they would not only make or break situations on the earth, but also in heaven. To be sure, they will have high places in heaven and much authority, but that is after they get there.

Maybe the passage is referring to their particular authority to cast out demons, diminishing strongholds in the spiritual world. I am talking about a valid form of spiritual warfare - but not the one connected to the modern and unscriptural idea of spiritual mapping.

The best spiritual warfare in my opinion is to live a life devoted to Jesus Christ/God, loving first him and then others, telling them the gospel and helping where possible, so that the devil's influence within ourselves and those that also believe is diminished and destroyed.

People coming to Christ and rejecting sin does have an effect in heaven. "Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15:8-10.

The benefits of such Christian behavior that comes from the heart can radiate far beyond Christian circles as well.

As far as salvation, I'm with the others that say you can't lose it.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. John 6:39

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one. John 10:27-30.

Instead of this causing laziness, as some think believing in it does, it causes me to redouble my efforts to obey God's commands. Knowing that he won't let me go has taken the pressure to behave off. I think that was the goal of what Jesus did for us, he not only took the sin, but the pressure of the law away as well. We are free to follow the law, not forced to follow it. Paul has some great arguments on that one in Romans 2 and 3 and 7, Romans is full of verses on that theme....

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Romans 6:14.

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36.

Yippee! I can't help but get excited about this! :) :)

[yeshua'smags]

Amen Carmen!! GREAT VERSES!!!! Thank you!



Whoa whoa whoa! If you can lose your salvation that would mean you could earn it in the first place. There are two types of people in the world; bad people who know they're bad, and bad people who don't know they're bad. We know we are bad. We know we need a savior! We have imputed rightousness it means it doesn't belong to us. It's through Him that we even have rightousness to begin with. So how could we lose it?
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!

[Carmen]

I didn't want to leave you out, Maggie, was thinking of your entry too. :)

[yeshua'smags]

Oh my gosh! I know! I didn't mean it that way!;) :D I just wanted to give you confirmation.:p