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Florence
09-24-2004, 11:28 AM
I wonder if I will ever learn.
Several years ago, I was in an abusive church. Of course, I didn't know that until my husband and I described our situation to my brother-in-law who happened to work for the publisher of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and also attended the church pastored by David, one of the co-authors. My brother-in-law gave us the book and we could have been a case study for it - every single thing in there we had experienced.

God led us to another church that, though not perfect, offered us rest and healing - or so we thought. It took about a year before I was comfortable even showing up for a choir rehearsal there - I have a music degree and am currently working on a seminary degree, a Master of Arts in Religion with an emphasis in Worship Studies. I also, through this time, had a position for 5 years as a professor in Worship Studies at a Bible college. More on what I do now in a moment.

Anyway, about a year after I joined the choir, they hired a new, full-time "worship coordinator." Several of the people expressed their dismay at this man's hiring, but they were anxious to fill the position and he was the only candidate (of 2 who applied) who was viable.

This man opened the door for me to participate more and more in the worship ministry. It took me about 8 months to figure out that he cared nothing about the church or the people who attened there. "I hate the choir", "I wouldn't do anything for this church if they didn't pay me", and "Hey, if you look good I look good and if you look bad, I look even better" were just a few of the things he had the nerve to say to me.

After several months of extending grace to this fellow, doing the Matthew 18 thing and talking to him about my concerns (to which he responded, "You bet! I will do better!), I finally went to the pastor who steered me to the personnel committee (by the way, this is a church with an average attendance of 2500). They set up a joint meeting with me and this guy and from the moment I walked in, I knew that because I had pointed out the problem, I had become the problem. I was immediately labeled the "bad person" and told that I would no longer be able to work with him.

That was not a problem for me. I had faith that these were good people with the best of intentions - I had several lengthy discussions with the senior pastor in which we agreed that the guy should not be expected to be perfect and I was assured that he was being mentored, etc. In fact, the senior pastor seemed to be very interested in helping me in whatever way necessary for me to reach a point of healing from my past church experience, and I went on to confide deeply in him over the next several years.

I went on, over the next 3 years, to a co-leadership position with the worship team for the women's ministry. Unfortunately, the "worship coordinator" was doing his best to convince as many people as possible that I was definitely the "bad person" and it seemed that no matter what I did, there were a couple of people who would insist that I was a terrible person.

Several things came together about a year and a half ago - my boss quit and wasn't going to be replaced so I had to "take up the slack", I was taking more seminary courses, I had family obligations, etc. and I was tired of being condemned by one of the women on the worship team, so I decided to quit doing that and focus on my family, job (which was actually a ministry), and education.

Six months later (last summer), another local church that had gone through a terrible "worship war" asked me to come in and be their "worship coordinator." I said I would but that they needed to know that I would not be moving my membership from my current church, nor would my family be changing churches. I explained to them that these were not ideal conditions and that perhaps they should look for someone who could be "sold out" to them - something I could not do - I truly felt that God had placed me at my church, I had found some semblance of healing there, and my family and I were happy there. I talked to my senior pastor and he encouraged me to take the position. I ended up resigning from the Bible college and taking this worship coordinator position.

Because my home church has several services, I have been able lead worship at the place I work and to still attend a later service with my family.

Being in church broken over worship - and working in the midst of the pain as a worship leader has not been easy. I had come to the realization that the Lord was calling me away from that position. At the same time, the worship coordinator at my home church resigned they posted both a full and part time position to replace him. I immediately applied for the part-time position.

Well, I never heard and never heard until one day several people told my husband and I that the position had been filled. I sent an email to the senior pastor (my trusted confidante) and asked why, as an applicant, I hadn't been informed before the announcement was made. Well, come to find out, I was the only applicant, so they went out and found 4 other people who will "rotate" on a volunteer basis to cover this position because they don't want to hire me.

I was told that not enough time has passed since the trouble I had with the worship coordinator (6 years ago now) and I would need to work my way up, and measure up. I was also told that the leadership of the church would determine when I was "ready" to participate in the music/worship ministry again, but first I would have to quit my job and attend there exclusively, go to classes, and "work my way up." I was completely stunned. These kinds of expectations when I was the one who designed the Worship Ministries program at the local college, who has done this kind of work for years with great success? And now I'm supposed to "work my way up"? The stuff I had experienced at my previous church suddenly came rushing back and I am now feeling so naive, foolish, and betrayed.

I sent my senior pastor a lengthy email in which I explained to him my journey to spiritual health and how I simply cannot put myself in a position where I have to measure up. I cannot always be wondering if people are watching me and judging me and raising the bar whenever I seem to be getting too close.

He has not responded. I thought we had such a great relationship - he was like a brother to me and now I found out that all along, I was never in his "good graces."

I know that there are times when someone does something or shows a pattern of behavior (maybe they are just down-right mean) that would cause the leadership so say, "You're not quite ready for this", but why would my pastor recommend that I take a position at another church if he thought I wouldn't be good enough in my own? To get rid of me? He knew that wasn't going to happen.

I am so disappointed. Now I'm just trying to process what all of this means.
Sorry this is so long.

Boo
09-24-2004, 11:53 AM
Welcome Florence. This is a good place to let it out or as I say, let it rip. My husband & I were once in leadership positions, though not paid staff. We eventually left the church, then another...and now we don't attend at all...and to tell you the truth, I don't even know that I can call myself a Christian anymore.

The book, The Subtle Power is a wonderful resource. We too found that the whole book covered our story as well. There wasn't a page in it that did not apply to our experiences.

Oopsie Daisey
09-24-2004, 11:56 AM
Florence:


Please don't be sorry by your posts. I have not been able to read the books yet. All I know is that I have been counseled by a Christian counselor and he didn't come right out and call it Spiritual abuse but he gave me the definition and let me come to my own conclusions. I still found it hard to believe I would be abused by my church and stayed there long after the counseling ended. Then one day after a few threats and examinination and meeting a really terrific person who said to me that I was in a rotter for a church, I stepped aside of my feelings to see and like you said in your post, you became the bad person...well so did I and so did umpteen before me and umpteen after me and they still reel them in and do the same thing.

There are people here more versed in the abuse thing than I am but I just wanted to say welcome aboard and keep posting and you will find a great loving forum with diverse personalities and wonderful contributions...There is a saying here that was given to me when I came a few months ago, Take what works and leave the rest. I can't tell you how much God has used this forum in helping me get restored to sanity. I am still a long ways off but not near as far as I was.

I am so glad you had people in your life that helped you get here and get the right material. I have only the forum as my support system. I am an outcast because I dared to go against the majority. I don't know anything other than what I am learning on the forum and reading off the boards. I gave all my money to the church and energies and to helping and thinking I was doing it for God and realizing that it wasn't that I had been manipulated when I stopped and looked at my condition. So right now I am totally clueless and yet I wanted you to know that I am so glad you came online to the forum.

Please know that I will be right there reading your material and anything you want to share. I know that I will gain and hopefully you will see many things on the forum that you will gain from.

I know this is the one place, I can be me.

God Bless,
Melanie

Voyager
09-24-2004, 03:28 PM
I am so disappointed. Now I'm just trying to process what all of this means.

This is the very type of experience that has caused me to decide to never darken the door of a church again. You cannot trust people who base your worth on your performance (or lack thereof).

:cool:

Emerging
09-24-2004, 03:54 PM
I wonder if I will ever learn.
Florence, welcome and you HAVE learned!! You LEFT!!! And as you have found out, they are so CLEVER at lying and manipulating that it's really sad ... and so frustrating and even infuriating! As my counselors keep saying, it takes while to figure it all out ... and what took you 6 years the first time will take less the second, and less the third .... which is why I don't date at all ... for now ... sigh .... because I've realized that most "all" my radars are skewed. Still. sigh. :rolleyes:
It took about a year before I was comfortable even showing up for a choir rehearsal there
I wonder if you unconsciously already knew it was not cool there, but like the rest of us, you had to be a "good Christian" and "give them the benefit of the doubt". yep, me too, in so many different aspects of my life. sighing again.... :rolleyes:
It took me about 8 months to figure out that he cared nothing about the church or the people who attened there. "I hate the choir", "I wouldn't do anything for this church if they didn't pay me", and "Hey, if you look good I look good and if you look bad, I look even better" were just a few of the things he had the nerve to say to me.
How sad for you and everyone there! But after what happened later to you at their hands, unfortunately it sounds like they deserved nothing better than this. :o
He has not responded. I thought we had such a great relationship - he was like a brother to me and now I found out that all along, I was never in his "good graces."
Again SO sad!! I"m sorry that you've gone through this nonsense ... worst of all when they are soooo unkind and keep *pretending* like "nothing happened" ... that's what scares/ticks me off most of all. :(
I am so disappointed. Now I'm just trying to process what all of this means. Sorry this is so long.
My experience is that this will take some time to process ... just cuz it does, not to reflect upon you at all. And NO WORRIES about how little or much you post - we are all working really hard here to actually "live what we know" ... not perfect yet, but we keep on a tryin'. ;) Hang in there and I hope to hear more from you as time goes on. Take care! :)

Jerry
09-24-2004, 07:35 PM
Dear Florence,,,,
Ah!!!!!! The old "Point out the Problem/Become the Problem" syndrome :( ...........Although you didn't say it ,,,,,,,, I bet it stuck in their craw that your a woman also.....I bet you were also told,,,,"Pray about it,,,,,God Understands your Frustration" Christianeese for "Keep your mouth shut!"Yes they will exact a great price for your insolance.....They will say and do many things to insure that you be brought into line.They will make sure your burden becomes more ponderous,until they have driven you away.When you leave they will say you are decieved that your spirit became rebellious..........And God will say,,,,,"Well done Florence,,My good and faithful servant!!"
Love Jerry
P.S. In seeking to place you in chains Florence,,,,,,,,,They are forging the chains of their own bondage............selah

MCM (Mary)
09-24-2004, 09:21 PM
Hi, Florence

I am so sorry about all of this. I know the feeling of being expected to work my way up, and then to find there is never an end to it. I think a lot of it is about being a woman. Women are judged much, much more harshly in the church than men are.

Once a picture came to me. It was something rising up from a church, then the same thing rising up from another church, then more and more. The picture panned out, like to cover the U.S. I realized that it was hatred, and that it was hatred against God. That hatred was rising up from the churches all across our country.

This hatred shows itself against people when they are uniquely gifted, more genuine, more accomplished, more studious, or in any other way a threat to anyone's ego. You are accomplished, studious, and caring.

I know from your letter that your pain is really deep and intense. The treatment you received over this last rejected application is truly shocking.

How I wish it wasn't this way for you.

Caring, Mary

Florence
09-25-2004, 11:09 AM
The "woman" question was a huge issue at my first abusive church. Of course, I didn't know the rules until I broke them. I'll never forget the day the pastor asked me to close a meeting in prayer which I was happy to do. Afterward, the other woman who was present at the meeting chastised me and told me women should never pray aloud when men are present. Iwent back to the pastor and told him what she had said and he replied, "She's absolutely right. I was testing you and you failed." And to think I stayed for nearly two more years trying to measure up!

My current church has many women in staff and leadership positions. I do think there is merit in saying that there is a bias against me because of my being "uniquely gifted, more genuine, more accomplished, more studious" and a "threat". I think it also has to do with the fact that the leadership is very political. The senior pastor is very intentional about getting on and staying on the good side of the people who have money, social status, live in the right neighborhood, have power and influence in the community, and are willing and able to fund whatever vision he comes up with.

My husband and I, on the other hand, though we are both very highly educated and could be all of those things, have chosen to put God and our family first. My husband has been offered many promotions in which he would have to work unlimited hours. He has refused because he wants to be a father to his children.

I have chosen to remain in part-time positions until our children are grown. We are people who prefer to serve in the background. (Even though I am now a worship leader, my ultimate goal is to train up and empower others for leadership and that I will no longer be necessary on the platform.)

We live in a turn-of-the-century home in the country and drive very used cars. We shop at Wal Mart and haul around picnic lunches when we can't eat at home. We are renovating our home ourselves (on the 20-year-plan) because we can't afford to hire a contractor. Therefore, I can now see that I was never the right material for the senior pastor or his cronies. The reality is that, within his politics, I didn't measure up even before he met me.

Thanks to all of you for your words of comfort and encouragement. I "process" through writing so I appreciate just being able to tap out my thoughts and read your responses.

Florence

Emerging
09-25-2004, 01:17 PM
Florence, I do agree with MCM (Mary) that just maybe we've all gotten it so terribly done to us all because we are SO much more uniquiely ... spiritual? I remember at my former church hearing someone say how they couldn't go a week without going to church because they felt so lifted there. That really scared me - because, didn't they feel that Spirit elsewhere in their lives at ALL??

So I do think that we are targets by those who hold fast to the darkness because we are such an unwitting threat to them. Maybe that is why Jesus says for us to stay on the high road ... it's safer there.

ex-shep
09-25-2004, 01:23 PM
Florence, welcome and you HAVE learned!! You LEFT!!!

[like "nothing happened" ... that's what scares/ticks me off most of all. :(

My experience is that this will take some time to process ... just cuz it does, not to reflect upon you at all. And NO WORRIES about how little or much you post - we are all working really hard here to actually "live what we know" ... not perfect yet, but we keep on a tryin'. ;) Hang in there and I hope to hear more from you as time goes on. Take care! :)


Congratulations for leaving!!!! [Applause, confetti, balloons, brass bands]

It has been 20 years since I left shepherding. I too recognise the "conditional" love. I experienced it in my groups. I was programmed with the faulty belief in my family of origin. A leader of a treatment center for former cult members spoke of his group, "I got tired of banging my head against the wall trying to please the elders. I burned out" This is how most walk out of destructive groups.

I happen to be reading Galatians. I realize I am taking great liberties with interpretation; but I cannot help but realize the short fuse the Apostle Paul had against conditional salvation. His reaction, "Ok, That's it. Everybody OUT OF THE POOL!!"

The recovery process can be disorienting. The transition for group to post group self can have something of a Twilight Zone quality. It does pass, not fun until it does. It sounds like you have a good handle on things. I can see the beginings of recovery.

Feel free to do search engine search on spirtual abuse. Recovery sources I usually reccomend are AFF, Re-Foucus, Wellspring, and the website of Bill and Lorna Goldberg. They may be offer referals in to live recovery groups. You may have to drive a few hundred miles, but it is worth the trip. Al-Anon, Children of Alcoholics, or Codependents Anonymous are helpful resources. As always take what you like and leave the rest.

Keep sharing. Glad you are here. There is always somebody on line. Virtual coffee pot always brewing.

MCM (Mary)
09-25-2004, 01:33 PM
Hi again, Florence

I keep thinking I'm beyond being surprised/shocked at the cruelty of church people, and then ...

Regarding the man who supposedly "tested" you by asking you to pray, that was complete trash. You did what you were asked to do, and for that woman to "correct" you and for that man to turn on you that way... It's cruelty. At least you're out of that church.

This makes me think of a time when a women's study leader "corrected" me for telling the group something that I hadn't told them. She was the one who told it to them. I said to her, "You are trying to correct me for doing something you did. Does that make sense?" She never got what I was saying. Truth is what you want it to be?????

The situation you're in now... too much. How can anyone think that it is right to intentionally cultivate people just because they have social status etc?

At least you have opportunities, though they are coming at a cost. At least you and your husband have some unity of purpose.

It's like Emerging said. "we are targets by those who hold fast to the darkness."

Anyway, we care. Post here anytime, any length, any topic, any mood... Mary

ex-shep
09-25-2004, 02:08 PM
I remember at my former church hearing someone say how they couldn't go a week without going to church because they felt so lifted there. That really scared me - because, didn't they feel that Spirit elsewhere in their lives at ALL??


That is too close to home for me. I remember bible school students saying, "Gee!! I really missed the prescence of the Lord when I went home this weekend". I smartened up to that myth about a month before I walked out, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. WAIT A MINUTE!!!!! Everybody out of the pool. If the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof, why in the [Expletive deleted] do I need to go [my former group] to find the prescense of the Lord with even having to take the Merchants Limited. Shep, you have an idol problem."

I am a meber of a great church. I have respect for the staff. the media ministry and the music programs. I go to great pains not to deify the church. Even my prayers go "I thank you for the little corner of the world at ------"