Is the entire traditional church system sick?

[newpal]

When I look today a the traditional church system I see something that is abusive simply by the methods it operates - performance based and legalistic.

Here's what I mean. "Pastors" today, especially those in church ministry of over 150 family units I think are more performance driven than truly ministry driven. Why? Because a great deal of their time is spent preparing for their next "sermon" which really becomes a performance.

Now, that is not said to throw sand in the face of true scholarship. Our education is derived from listening to those teaching us things we are totally ignorant in. However, the church is supposed to be a living body where we are all learning from each other in a quasi simultaneous manner. That is why I believe small group ministry, if carried out properly, is the closest model we have for true ministry. That is certainly the model Christ utilized in his ministry to the twelve.

"Pastors" today are paid on their performance which is normally tied to their oratorical skills in front of a large group. Their "message" and their oratory boost their ego as they hear their church members leave a service talking about how "good" he was. One could literally sit in a "Church" their entire adult life and listen to a man speak Sunday after Sunday, and leave thinking how good this man is, and yet know nothing more about the man himself than the manner in which he speaks.

Their performance is also tied to how well they are able to mobilize those under their direction into ministry. That's where the abuse comes into play in most cases because I think that most "pastors" without them even knowing it, are using people to meet their own goals of performance.

Typically, most "pastors" know very few people on an intimate basis. So, how can they truly pastor? Through speaking on Sunday? No, that leaves people getting to know each other by looking at the back of someone's head each Sunday.

Questions:
How many times have you had an intimate meal with your "pastor"?
How many times have you been in your "pastor's" home, or your "pastor" in your home?
How many times have you spent in a small group with your "pastor"?
How many times have you been in one on one prayer with your "Pastor"?
How many times have you been in a recreational endeavor with your "pastor"?
How often do you speak on the phone with your "pastor"?

Now, having asked yourself those questions, ask yourself this question, "Have I truly ever had a real "Pastor"? I know I haven't.

[lavendre]

Thanks for your post, newpal

Authoritarianism I experienced from those in authority over me and the judgmentalism/legalism from the pulpit I experienced growing up causes me to have pastor-phobia at times. The other day I saw a man in a suit and tie and panicked inside because the man looked like a pastor. I also have major triggers from sermons because of my upbringing. Some pastors remind me of doctors who have learned certain "professional" behavior - like not getting involved personally with the patient - maintaining the doctor/patient one up one down relationship. Some pastors I've seen seem to strut and wear a mask and seem unapproachable.

I knew a pastor once who really was positive . His sermons were gentle and even his talk about sin was flavored with grace and mercy available for the sinner. He just worked part time because of a heart condition. So the deacons in the church had to take on most of his duties. The church really became involved in things and the church just grew larger and new people became Christians. Then the church hired a full time pastor and things fell apart at the church.

Just some of my perspective....

[Willow]

newpal... it's all about controlling the masses... always was... always will be.

[Janice]

Questions:
How many times have you had an intimate meal with your "pastor"?

All the time!


How many times have you been in your "pastor's" home, or your "pastor" in your home?

Tons of times. We even have each others' house keys!


How many times have you spent in a small group with your "pastor"?

Alot!

How many times have you been in one on one prayer with your "Pastor"?

Alot!
How many times have you been in a recreational endeavor with your "pastor"?

All the time!


How often do you speak on the phone with your "pastor"?

All the time!

That's why this whole thing sucks! Makes things that much harder!

[Florence]

Their "message" and their oratory boost their ego as they hear their church members leave a service talking about how "good" he was.

I think that most "pastors" without them even knowing it, are using people to meet their own goals of performance.

This describes the pastor I work for to a "T". I think one of the reasons he doesn't seem to want to communicate with me beyond what is absolutely necessary to make it through the Sunday service is because I don't drool all over him every week telling him how wonderful his messages are. (And frankly, they aren't very good at all. He's always reminding us that he has been in the ministry for 30 years, doesn't preach in a way that is relevant, and says things that are very inappropriate. On a recent Sunday he referred to having a vibrator in bed, in another he graphically told about how sick his family was at Christmas constantly referring to the fact that they were "painting the walls", and the latest was when he used a hoe as a prop and tried to make a play on word by using a fake book title and author: Healthy Churches by Lotza Hoes. Some of the folks there that day were mortified because it sounded like he was saying that healthy churches buy lots of whores.)

Typically, most "pastors" know very few people on an intimate basis. So, how can they truly pastor? Through speaking on Sunday? No, that leaves people getting to know each other by looking at the back of someone's head each Sunday.

The pastor of my home church sees his role as teacher and CEO. He is not a pastor in the sense that he knows very many people personally or intimately. He is intent on pastoring his staff of 30 or so as well as his executive board and knows them pretty intimately. Anyone beyond that must have money, social status, or something that he can use to get more than a passing "hello" from him when they meet him in the hallway. All the years that I was giving 15-20 hours per week to lead the worship for the women's ministry he barely tolerated me - I wasn't staff, board, or high enough on the food chain of money or status.

Questions:
How many times have you had an intimate meal with your "pastor"? None

How many times have you been in your "pastor's" home, or your "pastor" in your home? None - I have invited, neither he nor his wife have ever even responded with a "Sorry, we can't make it but thanks anyway."

How many times have you spent in a small group with your "pastor"?
Never

How many times have you been in one on one prayer with your "Pastor"?
Maybe 4 - and that's because I insisted on meeting with him about some concerns I had with a staff member.

How many times have you been in a recreational endeavor with your "pastor"?
Never - to do that, you have to be a basketball player - his oldest son plays in the NBA. He claims basketball means nothing to him but two months ago he turned down my request for 10 minutes of his time because it was basketball season and he was too busy.

How often do you speak on the phone with your "pastor"?
I think I've spoken with him on the phone 3 times in 8 years. The last time was 2 years ago.

Now, having asked yourself those questions, ask yourself this question, "Have I truly ever had a real "Pastor"? I know I haven't.
Yes. When I was in college I had several real pastors. One was the senior pastor of the church where I was saved - a charismatic Missouri Synod Lutheran church - you don't see those every day! And every year we got an intern who came there for their third year of seminary and worked with the college students in a campus ministry setting. They were all like fathers, brothers, and best friends to me and to everyone else. They set the pace for what I thought a pastor should be. I have never found anyone else like them anywhere I have ever been.

Florence

[Reg]

newpal... it's all about controlling the masses... always was... always will be.
Amy,

You nailed it girl! :D

[Willow]

Thanks Reg... Love ya Bro :)

[ChurchHappens]

I think the problem comes in when we have expectations of a person that holds a position that is not Biblical in the way we are seeing it expressed.

Here is a great article on: The Pastor: Where Did He Come From?

http://www.ptmin.org/thepastor.htm

Also you might find other articles on http://www.churchhappens.com helpful.

[moose]

Maybe this is a poor analogy but I am starting to see churches alot like a restauraunt that you might frequent....sometimes the food/service/atmosphere is excellent & sometimes it is poor...most of the time it is in between.

I would not paint all churches with the same brush. The body of Christ is extermely large indeed. There are some very sincere, well meaning Christians out there who are motivated only to do good. The trick then is to find these healthy communities whereever you may live.

We need to start looking at churches like any other organization. The church is just a community of believers and is much like any mutual interest organization. We put the church on a high pedestal that does not warrant it. Of course, we should have respect for the institution assuming that it respects/values us.

In the workplace, have we all not had a bad boss or backstabbing co-workers???...I sure have......same goes to churches...logically then, why should churches be any different?? The people that make up the church are only a cross section of the local community.

Regards,

Moose

[Jerry]

Dear Newpal,,,,
No the Church is not sick,,,,,,the Church is unbelieveably stupid and ignorant!!!!They dwell so much on the perpetuation of their particular denomation,,,that they miss it all.Newpal,,,,,your post was written 2000 years ago,and if you plead this case to your Church,you also will suffer for your sanity just like 2000 years ago,,,their not listening still :( Matt 23 vs/13-36
Love Jerry

[newpal]

[QUOTE=ChurchHappens]

Here is a great article on: The Pastor: Where Did He Come From?

Good article. Another good link to consider consider:

http://klmministries.ihostvm.com/page25.html

[newpal]

Check out the Kingdom Life...

klmministries.ihostvm.com

[Kerrin]

[QUOTE=moose]Maybe this is a poor analogy but I am starting to see churches alot like a restauraunt that you might frequent....sometimes the food/service/atmosphere is excellent & sometimes it is poor...most of the time it is in between.

No ofense Moose, but in a city of 5-6 million people,(known for it's "quality" restaurants), Melbourne is in serious trouble. :eek:

The lines have become so blurred now! :confused:
Love,
Kerrin

[jane]

Church Happens;

This is some great food for thought. My husband and I have been reading this over and over. It is exactly what we have been questionning over the last year but wondering if we had become heretical!

I had a friend once say, "The Lutheran reformation did not go far enough, they just scratched the surface with unveiling the heresy in the organized church"


Thanks for sharing that site; and all the others. Post more if you get them!!

Jane

[pblondeau46]

[QUOTE=ChurchHappens]

Here is a great article on: The Pastor: Where Did He Come From?

Good article. Another good link to consider consider:

http://klmministries.ihostvm.com/page25.html


Hi newpal :)

I'm new too. :D

Thank you for that link. The article is really good. I am really enjoying it. Lots of History which I'm starting to appreciate more and more in my studies.

Thanks again.