My journey thus far

[Florence]

There was a time when I didn't know fear - only delight. I delighted in Jesus and saw "the church" as a gracious, loving, caring manifestation of His presence. Perhaps that is why I didn't see it coming . . . the abuse. When it began, I thought I was simply being "stretched" in my walk and growth. Gradually, I became confused. And finally, I was running for my life. . . fear had come. . .

Next we found a church where we heard all the right things - about woundedness and grace, healing and mercy. It's a large church and easy to stay anonymous. I just wanted to curl up in a corner and lick my wounds. I didn't ever want to "get close" to a pastor again - nor a church. . . I was so afraid.

Gradually, I began taking tiny steps toward getting involved - singing in the choir, doing some solos, playing and singing with the worship teams. Always afraid . . . and mostly of the senior pastor. . . that he (and the church) would reject me.

For years, I lived in fear. Fear that was fed by the little things I became aware of the more I became involved: the position that the staff is always supported no matter how outrageous their words or behavior or incompetence; the position that if you have money, status, or beauty, you have more "clout," etc.; fear that I would be judged and found unworthy . . . a nearly overwhelming fear of rejection.

And then it happened. What I feared most. Oh, I had experienced minor instances of rejection there over the years, but nothing compared to where I had come from. Finally, this time it was full and complete and directly from the senior pastor.

I was, at first, filled with self-blame. How could I be so stupid to have brought this upon myself? I was devastated, hurt, angry, - and not afraid to say so! After all, I no longer had anything to lose.

It didn't take long for me to realize that I was not the bad person for begin rejected - that it is the one who rejects that has the problem and I have absolutely no power or influence over who that person chooses to accept or reject. Nothing that I can ever say, do, be, or possess will ever be able to change his mind about me. I can only choose my response to him - and so I choose to be "for" him.

Recently, I realized that I am no longer afraid. I was afraid of being rejected and now that it has happened I don't have to be afraid of it any more. In fact, in the experience of being rejected, I have found that I am stronger, healthier, and more gracious toward the senior pastor than I ever dreamed possible.

Don't get me wrong - the pain isn't gone, nor the tears. But the fear has had to flee. I feel more "normal" than I have in a long, long time.

Florence

[Patty]

Florence, thank you for writing this. I too, got rejected (and thrown out and shunned) of two churches. I was really down on myself for not having learned my lesson the first time around and for getting into another abusive group. Your story is very similar to mine. Even the part where you tentativly tried another church, taking a long time to get involved, only to have it happen again. That is ditto my story. Only I have not found peace at all about what happened. Now, I just don't even try church anymore. That, too, does not bring rest, only guilt.

[Florence]

Dear Patty,
My heart hurts for you and for all of us who have had a taste of rejection. I don't have answers - only an offer of encouragement. I am so blessed to have a family, a couple of good friends, and a couple of jobs in the "Christian" area over the years that have helped me to cope and to regain my sanity. And, compared to some I have read and heard about and talked to, my experiences have been pretty tame. Finding this forum has been huge in helping me to see my own situation more clearly. What a wonderful cheering section you all are!
Florence

[Voyager]

Your experience mirrors mine Florence, except that I will never allow it to happen again. The first time was too much for me. This is precisely the reason that my shadow will never darken the door of a church ever again. Call me paranoid if you will, but I now see churches as more dangerous than crack houses.

:cool:

[ex-shep]

The fear factor is pandemic to those who have been in cults and abusive groups. It is an understandable defense mechanism. "Oh No!! I am not going through that again. It has taken me twenty years to get comfortable. The good news that once burned twice shy. Ex-group members have a good sixth to smell smoke. Like the robot in Lost in Space, an alarm goes off, "Danger!! Danger!! Hidden agenda is at work in this congregation. Proceed to nearest exit.

The downfall is I can be hypervigilant and distrust anything remotely evangelical. I used to dive for cover when I heard traditional Christmas carols or a Bach cantata.


I can understand a plight with a woman at work. Apparemtly "Lydia" was in an abusive marriage. Her response is to throw up barriers at every man who even waves, smiles, or says "Have a nice day", Obviously not every man has horns coming out his head [unless he plays in the brass section in the Dallas Symphony], Not every evangelical has a hidden agenda or is abusive. Trying to break the fear factor is a tough one. I just put enough one days at a time that with time it became a non-issue. If anyone has an idea of how to speed the healing process along, I am game.

Like the 1970 hit by the Who. We won't get fooled again.

[Dolphin]

Florence, I have been through some bad church things in my 20s. And due to that, and many other things, I don't plan to go again. I don't get involved in politics either. I never did to begin with. I lean conservative, but I am not a diehard at all, and I am disgusted with many things. At first I thought I could replace religion with politics, but it hasn't worked out for me. I don't like the us against them attitude in the political arena either. We don't live in a time where we really know who's in charge of churches or political things anymore. Just because I don't fit the mold of one of the religious sects or political parties doesn't mean that my thoughts, views, conscience and sensitity isn't valid. Volunteer work looks good to me. . I think people are more important than views

[Florence]

Voyager,
One of the coolest realizations I had last fall when this guy did the whole "You don't measure up" bit, was that I didn't have to "allow it to happen again." I set the guy straight right then and there about my opinion of what he was saying and about just about everything else I thought about his politics, his abusive position, etc.

During my first experience, I was naive, unprepared, and uneducated in what was happening. This time, I was prepared - and I gave him both barrels. It was kind of a "Go ahead, make my day" moment. He may have tried to shame me - and I DID tell him I was ashamed - ashamed that I had been so consumed with trying all those years to be, say, do, and possess all the "right things" so that he would find me acceptable. Yep, I was ashamed, and rightly so. But not of having opinions or asking questions or expressing concerns about a staff member who blatantly misused his position. Nope. Nobody is going to heap shame on me for doing what is right.

I sit right down front in that "inner circle" every Sunday and heap burning coals. No shame. No guilt. No fear.

I think you should be happy for me. :D :p :eek:
Florence

[Voyager]

Florence,

I am extremely happy for you. I am so glad that you now have the strength to stand up against these wolves. I have regarded you as a trusted friend on this forum, and it's hard for me to trust anyone.

I actually tried to find another church after my first bad experience. However, my trust was so deeply wounded due to the excessive abuse at the first church that I simply couldn't stomach sitting through sermons full of triggering scriptures. I probably tried six different churches, and each time I found myself abruptly leaving during the middle of a service due to triggers. So, if I could have went through it a second time, I would have.

I think my first experience was so far off the map that it was just too much for me. I mean, this pastor was telling people who to marry, where to live, how to wear thier hair and nails, how to dress, where to work, etc. It became a full-blown cult. After that experience, I am done with church for good.

:cool:

[Doug64]

Florence...You go, girl!

Our experience was similar in some ways but because our former group was beginning to make some positive changes, it was easier to leave. We never got into any one-on-one confrontations. We felt more changes were required and got tired of waiting. We are watching from the wings to see how it will all turn out.

We have attended a few other churches on occasion but mostly watch Televangelists on Sunday morning. Control shows up there every so often.

Doug

[Florence]

Voyager,
Yeah, I remember the dictates on dress, make-up, hair, etc., too. Isn't it amazing that they can back it up with scripture and make it sound sooooo necessary to salvation? In my experience, once the pastor decided he was gunning for you, you couldn't do ANYTHING that he couldn't find a way to preach against - with scripture to back it up! Once, when one of the men at that church brought some tapes of the sermons to an elders meeting and played some excerpts to show how the pastor was constantly contradicting himself and using different scriptures to support opposite positions - depending on the person he was building up or tearing down, whatever the case was that week - he was told that "It's the pastor's perogative" to say that what is okay for one person is not okay for another. :confused:

I count you as a trusted friend, too. If we could, I'd invite you to "sic 'em" with me! :eek: :D

Florence

[ex-shep]

Your experience mirrors mine Florence, except that I will never allow it to happen again. The first time was too much for me. This is precisely the reason that my shadow will never darken the door of a church ever again. Call me paranoid if you will, but I now see churches as more dangerous than crack houses.

:cool:


Well, I would not go that far, but I 100% understand where you are coming from. Next latte on mee :)

[mountain]

I don't like the us against them attitude in the political arena either. We don't live in a time where we really know who's in charge of churches or political things anymore. Just because I don't fit the mold of one of the religious sects or political parties doesn't mean that my thoughts, views, conscience and sensitity isn't valid. Volunteer work looks good to me. . I think people are more important than views

This is good . Thanks Dolphin.

[Dolphin]

Mountain, from the Baptist church I was shunned from after I went in a depressed hospital and left high school because of that church, to the christian rehab I got thrown out for defending myself when hit, to the charismatic church that had me thinking working outside all winter 60 hours a week could be done with "faith" and if I didn't make a good salary I wasn't in God's will which led toproblems, to this really bizarre group that had a public business and hid their beliefs from me and all these things happened that I kept justifying until i found out what their beliefs were much later, to the "deliverance church" I was in, I have had enough. I have never seen a healthy church, and I have always been treated as if my worth depended on my ability to flatter, agree w ith a lot of emotion, look extra pretty, make alot of money, or allow myself to be degraded in some way for someone's ego. It doesn't s eem to be a good place to go at all. I beleive in a fair good God and I am pretty much done with others who think t hat they are God.

[Dolphin]

Yes, the Baptist church was the reason for going into a depressed hospital for a while and then when I came out I was shunned and gossiped about. I was walked away from when I went back to the church. That was in my teens. Then I was told that those that walk away from God once will always go to hell. I felt continually bad after that and I could not shake it. And that was only number 1 of my church experences. I am an introvert by nature. I'm not one of those that stand around laughing with others in the churches. I have developed a sense of humor that is dry and somewhat creative over the years butI am not highly emotional as a person and I don't jump into groups of people in the churches easily. I am attractive and I ask questions. Leaders hate that. They hate the most innocent, obvious benign questions asked softly. I see nothing but a group of manipulative self-righteous people that are phony and controlling. Basically despite the fact that I am attractive, and am somewhat intellectual and curious, I am not very outgoing, and I look somewhat transparently insecure on top of that. I am merely in touch with my feelings and I am not as nearly as insecure as I look and if I am insecure it is because I am only human and I am full well allowed to be. This projected combination gets me hit on by leadership slime, and in t rouble for asking questions if I do, and if I do not quickly laugh at others jokes that I do not know especially those arrogant prophets that like to flirt which upsets me, then my lack of a response they are looking for gets me alot of scowls and the conversation quickly turns into some kind of inquistion about myself in a way that they are obviously looking to make me feel bad; they want to test to see if I will support their ego and power willingly with jokes a nd amen's and listening to really presumptuous advice if I do not give them enough of the type of response they are used to, even if I do give a positive response-which I normally do-being polite, but anyway I am then struck with all kinds of invasive questions with a vibe that is arrogantly pulling on me to take information and give back literally stinging intimidation to try to take more. I see people bowing to this kind of thing so often with these anointed ones that the gifted get very spoiled. They fail to realize that the Jewish prophets were often condemned in the Old Testament by others despite the fact that they had power. I think they are slime. Real slime. I can feel they are on some kind of high that while they think they are superhuman they are also inhuman/unhuman at the same time. I rather be aware of my feelings and others and feel all my emotions then be where they are and be sucked into thinking that I should be where they are. some fictional placewhere human feelings are not of God because they contain some doubt and occasional sadness and disagree occasionally and have questions. I cannot communicate with them in a normal way. It is like talking to a drunk in a bar that wants all the attention on him. I told you I have a transparent look that shows doubt and insecurity before, somewhere someone(s) in every church will try to jump on that. I literally have had people look at me from across a room, and trudge over with their eyes fixed on me just to give me a word from God that is not from God. They clearly are loooking for someone to dominate and when I am n ot compliant with their words then they recount to me how they are respected someway in the church while they do not know my name and have been scowling from the beginning and then they want me to impress them somehow with my life. It feels sickening and dominating. Its all intimidation a nd there is no way you can tell me that that is from God. I like who I am and I am not looking to alter my personality- only trying to improve my character constantly. I do not want to be in the spirit as they claim I should be and think I am not, or dress different or be more emotional. My responses are fine enough. I am in the range of acceptable behavior. I do not need to be made over or be taken under another's wing. I do not need painful events of my past thrown up in my face and in front of others at that and smiled over on top of that, that are off the orignal subject but related in t he sense that they are displaying their superior/control agenda techinques. That happened once in the deliverance church and I cannot shake that off myself. That was literally so horrible. And I have so many other horrible experiences that have affected me. I am an idealist and I kept trying. But I have decided that my esteem is somewhat low in general and I attract these kinds of people in church. I am not a whiner or in need of alot of emotional support fromothers. I am basicallly emotionally independent and I do not look for others support. I have had equated verbaling my feelings to eventually being controlled by others. My wounds from the past although tolerable to myself do show up to others as them seeing an insecurity at times and there are many people who are willing to jump on me in church and know how to get away with it under claiming concern, or a word from god, or whatever. It is the truth. It's surely not from God either because it is not said with actual care but obvious trying to control a "thus sayth the Lord" thing. My personality is fine but I am aware that others who are without feelings seem to enjoy trying to provoke my feelings, like t he sociopath they might be, and trying to put me on a false high, or delusion, or some harmful mindset that is unpractical and will cost me some bad decisions in the long run that would be probably related to career or financial wise. I need to think with my God given mind and spirit and not listen to some blowhard know-it-all claiming they are spiritual. Like giving to I'm in debt and giving up going to school to attend their services in the evenings -this has been commanded of me to do before, when I was in t he deliverance church that I didn't even belong to before

[mountain]

I am an idealist and I kept trying.

Good for you. Don't ever change. So was David and Joseph. Both were rejected by their societies but kept faith and kept the ideals. They were successful.

I am sorry that you have had such experiences with churches. To be honest, this is one of the biggest disappointment for me as an adult. It is so sad there is such a problem finding a healthy group of people that provides a place for those like us to come and find a safe place to heal from our past.

It seems that churches are just like all other groups of people where tribes are formed consisting of a chief, a set of ranking leaders, supporters, general members, and those on the fringe. Order is maintained based on a combination of characteristics used to rank membership which include chrisma, intellect, attractiveness, and other strengths, mental and physical. Those that have below average qualities are forced into servant capacities and, if they rebel, they are pushed out. This concept is true in tribal animals and, of course, human society.

Jesus came to bring a new order, one based on equal access and one without rights by merit. Why churches have missed this and continue to conduct business as all other organizations is beyond me. Maybe it is this way because humans are running the show instead listening to Jesus Christ....

Peace to you. Remember to forgive. Remember Jesus's words which was "...forgive them Father for they know not what they do..." I am convinced that this is as true today as it was 2000 years ago.

Peace makers see God. That should be our focus. To do so we have to be careful not to threaten church leadership individually. I have found that if I return grace when wounded then God can deal with the offender. If the problem persists and is tolerated at large, then I renew my search for Gods people elsewhere.

So I am like you. I am still looking.

mtn

[Sheep]

It didn't take long for me to realize that I was not the bad person for begin rejected - that it is the one who rejects that has the problem and I have absolutely no power or influence over who that person chooses to accept or reject. Nothing that I can ever say, do, be, or possess will ever be able to change his mind about me. I can only choose my response to him - and so I choose to be "for" him.

Florence

This is good insight for me, Florence. I still struggle with the fear though. I'm glad you shared your journey with me.

Sheep

[mountain]

Thanks Sheep and Florence...

I had missed this one in your earlier post...

It didn't take long for me to realize that I was not the bad person for begin rejected - that it is the one who rejects that has the problem and I have absolutely no power or influence over who that person chooses to accept or reject.

This is at the very essence of what it means to be healthy in an unhealthy world. We can only control our reactions to others. Others still control their actions, not us. With some people, we can improve things by appealing to whatever good nature we can find in them and hope to seek mutual higher ground. However, with some, all you can do is do your part and pray for God to improve or change things.

Learning to give up control of others and stop allowing their failure to change to keep us in a black hole, is what it is all about.

mtn

[Kerrin]

[
Learning to give up control of others and stop allowing their failure to change to keep us in a black hole, is what it is all about.

mtn

So glad I stumbled on these pearls........
I have to meet with Doctors next week and tomoorow to talk about long term care for my 66 y/o demented dad!
He was as abusive as they come while I was growing up!!
So talk about , well, you can imagine where I'd like to put him.
Anyways, He went and made me his legal guardian before all this!!
I think you've helped me solve my dilemma, I can relinquish "control" (legally).. and I don't have to feel guilty!!
Thanks
Kerrin. still :confused:

[mountain]

Yep... it is a big relief to accept others as they are and just work on changing #1 first. You can do something about that, or at least you can most of the time. :)

The real bonus here is when you stop treating others the way they deserve and start treating them out of the goodness of your own heart, a lot of time, they DO change for the better. That is a HUGE bonus when it happens.

Grace works for those that want to make peace... However, if you give it to the point they just expect it and take advantage of it, that is when I look for new company.

We are called to be peacemakers, not door mats. Even Jesus chose his company for miracles. Grace is the greatest miracle of all...

Thanks Kerrin... my hope is all goes well with your dad.

mtn

[Kerrin]

Yep... it is a big relief to accept others as they are and just work on changing #1 first. You can do something about that, or at least you can most of the time. :)

Grace works for those that want to make peace... However, if you give it to the point they just expect it and take advantage of it, that is when I look for new company.

We are called to be peacemakers, not door mats. Even Jesus chose his company for miracles. Grace is the greatest miracle of all...

Thanks Kerrin... my hope is all goes well with your dad.

mtn

:( :)
I can't tell you how timely this "message" is, as I'm so confused over how my dad and my husband have been treating me.
I just started reading, "When Pleasing Others is Hurting You", Dr. David Hawkins, and it's so appropriate about co-dependancy,
I think the fog is slowly lifting, and I can see where I have been wrong in both these relationships, (Both were/are alcoholics),
I have to change in order for them to change their bad behaviour,
Thanks again,
Blessings
Kerrin :(