I'll Think About It...

[Willow]

Those are the words I found myself saying to a coworker yesterday when she asked... no begged me... to visit church with her just once. She said, "I am not trying to evangelize you... I just want to share something that is part of my life with you because you are my friend." How can I say NO to something like that? I told her I would think about it. The response I have come up with is that she should visit an all white biker bar with me once then I will visit all black church with her once. I don't think she'll go for the biker bar scene... hehe. Sneaky, am I?

[Willow]

OK... I've been corrected through a private message. I wouldn't REALLY take my friend to a biker bar. The point is... church is as much a part of my world as a prejudiced biker bar is part of her world.

[Willow]

The more I think about it.. the more I realize what a stupid post this was. I'd delete it if I could. All I can do now is flail my arms and torture myself over it.

[Satscout]

OK... I've been corrected through a private message. I wouldn't REALLY take my friend to a biker bar. The point is... church is as much a part of my world as a prejudiced biker bar is part of her world.

Think of it as the "weaker brother" scenario played out again. For her, the biker bar would be the trigger. For you, going to church is the trigger. SO... if it would drag HER down to attend the biker bar, she has the right to refuse - and if it would drag YOU down to attend her church, you have the right to refuse.

And everybody involved has the responsibility to be respectful about it.

(((((Willow)))))

Sharon

[Hope 98]

Don't beat yourself up - I understood what you were saying and I think you made a fair point.

Maybe it would offend some politically correct types...oh well...

[Voyager]

Willow,

I thought it was a great post. If I were in your shoes, I would have posted the same thing. Your accurate analogy of the biker bar comeback was right on the money, but unfortunately it probably would have offended her.

Have you considered telling her how wounded you were at your last church and that you're just not ready to try it again? That way she wouldn't take it personal if you turned her invitation down.

Please don't ever worry about your post not being "good enough". Around here we can just be ourselves without worrying about it.

:cool:

[Theodora]

Willow,

I thought it was a great post. If I were in your shoes, I would have posted the same thing. Your accurate analogy of the biker bar comeback was right on the money, but unfortunately it probably would have offended her.

Have you considered telling her how wounded you were at your last church and that you're just not ready to try it again? That way she wouldn't take it personal if you turned her invitation down.

Please don't ever worry about your post not being "good enough". Around here we can just be ourselves without worrying about it.

:cool:

I agree wholeheartedly with Voyager. This was a GOOD, honest post....but yes, he's right too.... your "comeback" probably would have offended her.

WOULD she be open to you telling her how wounded you were at your last church??? That WOULD make your refusal more understandable, I would think.

And yes....

DO "BE YOURSELF" here.

Love and prayers--

Theodora

:)

[Willow]

Actually... in feeling vulnerable about the post, I TOTALLY misunderstood the private message. There was no correction involved at all in it.

As far as my friend at work... she knows in detail about my experience at church. She also knows that her church is in the same family of churches as my former church. So much so that they have had my former pastor speak there. She just wants me to get past the woundedness and get into church again. I guess what I'll do is just tell her I'm not read yet... good suggestions. I don't want to offend her. Her church experience has been good and happy. I don't want to ruin it for her.

Thanks ya'll... for being so sweet. I didn't realize how vulnerable I felt about this post until my reactions kicked in! :eek:

[Jerry]

Dear Willow,,,
Oh yes ,,,,,,it is sooooooo important to protect your rights!!!!Soooo important to maintain your space.....She wants to share something with you,,,,,but your above what she has to share,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sometimes,,,,it's better to be kind,,,than to be "right",,,,,,,,,,,sometimes a kiss on the cheek,,,,,,is better than the truth ;)
Love Jerry

[Willow]

Yeh... maybe I should change my description as BIG FART instead of LITTLE FART. If I felt I could deal with it, I'd go with her to church. Maybe we can go to the zoo instead or something.

[Satscout]

Yeh... maybe I should change my description as BIG FART instead of LITTLE FART. If I felt I could deal with it, I'd go with her to church. Maybe we can go to the zoo instead or something.

That's why I said what I did about respecting each other's weakness. If you can't deal with going to her church yet, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. You have the right to protect yourself, your sanity, and your recovery.

(((((Willow)))))

And if her main goal is relationship, she will be willing to accept that a relationship with you - for now at least - will involve other people and other places than her church.

Sharon

[Janice]

Personally Willow...LOL....I thought your post was hysterical! :D

[Voyager]

Willow,

It's sad that in her eyes, getting you in church is "the ultimate cure" to fulfill all the emotional needs you could ever have. Little does she realize that just her friendship alone could probably produce much better results.

:cool:

[Jerry]

Yeh... maybe I should change my description as BIG FART instead of LITTLE FART. If I felt I could deal with it, I'd go with her to church. Maybe we can go to the zoo instead or something.
Dear Willow,,,,
Don't be that hard on yourself,,,,,I just ment to be careful of her feelings thats all.....I didn't mean that you should compromise your beliefs ;)
Love Jerry

[Willow]

Thanks for the feedback ya'll. I hear ya Sharon. I hear ya Jerry. I'm really glad I talked about it here before I hurt someone's feelings. *****HUGS*****

((((((Janice)))))) You're sense of humor always lifts me up!

Voyager... I think there is potential there for a friendship outside of church. I was suspicious of her motives in wanting to get me to church... but that might just be my paranoia. If it's just paranoia, then she'll be just as happy to share a different part of her life with me, no?

[Voyager]

I'm probably too biased to give a good answer on that one. I see people who push church as though they are drug pushers trying to get me to become addicted to a toxic poison.

:(

[Willow]

Well... I'm like that too. I need to give people some quarter until they prove to be unsafe for me. I'm not completely sure of a relationship out side of work with this person. I suspect I should give her a chance. I'm forever avoiding and putting off invitations, etc. I'm not sure if I'm paranoid or truly feeling pressured. I think maybe she's somewhat overbearing. Does that translate into unsafe? I'm not sure... :rolleyes:

[Patty]

I am finally letting go of the exact kind of friend you describe. She (and her husband) were the last remaining remnants we have held onto from our awful cultic church experience. Their attempts at getting us back in a church (which always seem to be connected to our original church) were nothing more than them operating in the same guilt procuding, judgemental, self-righteous methods that we all learned so well at the foot of our abusers.
I guess if it is possible that God was behind getting you out of your old church (cult) mess, could it also be possible that He wants you to "never return to Egypt?" Like not looking look back. This may include any people, habits, mannerisms, language, music, practices, etc. that you picked up while in that false church. Could this be a possibility?

[Willow]

Good point Patty... I think my motive is guilt more than desire in this case. I hate to admit it. I'm happy being her friend at work, but not so sure I want to start "hanging" with her outside of work.

Thanks for the great feedback :) HUGS! Miss your voice around here!

[Voyager]

It reminds me of people who are addicted to drugs. It's not good enough for you to just accept their habit. They want others to participate in their addiction. It's like, "Hey man, go ahead and take a toke! It will chill you out, and we can take a wild trip together. Come on, don't wimp out on me! Let's take a walk on the wild side." People who don't do drugs with them don't fit into the "in" crowd. It seems to be the same with people who push church. You're not in the "in" crowd unless you can talk church with them - and if your unchurched, then you are "uncool".

:(

[Savedbygrace]

It reminds me of people who are addicted to drugs. It's not good enough for you to just accept their habit. They want others to participate in their addiction. It's like, "Hey man, go ahead and take a toke! It will chill you out, and we can take a wild trip together. Come on, don't wimp out on me! Let's take a walk on the wild side." People who don't do drugs with them don't fit into the "in" crowd. It seems to be the same with people who push church. You're not in the "in" crowd unless you can talk church with them - and if your unchurched, then you are "uncool".

:(

I guess it is all how you choose to look at it. I truly believe that most people who try to "push" church on others they care about may truly believe that church will help that person with the struggles of life. I think that maybe, just maybe, this friend of Willow has truly been blessed by her experience at her church, and truly desires to see others find that blessing. Whether it is the right thing to do, well, that depends on just how "pushy" the person gets. If you say "no thank you" and they continue to push, then they need to cool it. But as far as motives, I do not think it a fair assessment to compair to a drug addicted pusher. She probably is very well intentioned.

I think it is easy to start taking our abusive experience at church, and then project our feelings of our abusers to see all people who are enthusiastic about church as abusive. Just cause we had bad experiences does not mean that "all" church is bad, and that all church goers are bad as well.

Just my thoughts.

Trish

[Voyager]

Most people who believe that drug use is okay have pure motives too. They think it's fine for them to smoke some weed to take away life's rough edges, and they usually think everyone else should too. They don't feel like they are promoting evil, anymore than the zealous evangelical does. However, once you get sucked-in to either one of their webs - then you become addicted. The only way out is "cold turkey", which usually means finding a whole different crowd to hangout with.

I think the analogy is very fair and accurate. It would be great to think that the church people are more pure and holy than the drug users, but I haven't found that to be the case. That's my opinion, and I am entitled to it. If I ever see evidence to change it, I will. However, based on everything I have seen in my 42 years on this earth, this is the conclusion I have come to.

:cool:

[Voyager]

Not to defend the drug pushers, but it's not because of them that we are on this forum. It's because of the church people who pushed their toxic substance on us. I wish it was only drugs that I had to deal with. I would have been able to get into rehab and recover by now. However, the psychological damage that came from the "drug" that I was given by the good church people was way more destructive than any drug available to mankind.

To me, being on a spiritual abuse forum and trying to speak kindly about church would be like being on a rape abuse forum and trying to speak kindly about rapists. Others may not agree with this perspective, and if so, I respect your views also. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

:cool:

[ex-shep]

Not to defend the drug pushers, but it's not because of them that we are on this forum. It's because of the church people who pushed their toxic substance on us. I wish it was only drugs that I had to deal with. I would have been able to get into rehab and recover by now. However, the psychological damage that came from the "drug" that I was given by the good church people was way more destructive than any drug available to mankind.

To me, being on a spiritual abuse forum and trying to speak kindly about church would be like being on a rape abuse forum and trying to speak kindly about rapists. Others may not agree with this perspective, and if so, I respect your views also. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

:cool:

I am glad am not the only one who felt that way. I am not gloating in pleasure; rather it reassuring I was not the only who encountered this struggle. The anger is part of the grieving process. I wish it were not, but its is. The abuse experience is addicting. I have given talks on cults and made mention of the fact the mind control and worship dynamic can be just as addicting as drugs and alcohol. The " detox process" can take a long time.

I can relate to the second paragraph. I get tired of having to educate evangelicals to go easy if someone has been in an abusive church. I use the slogan "pray for them, don't prey on them" [Chessy, I admit, but it gets the point across] Telling somebody to go to church before they have fully recovered and they are comfortable is like giving a rape victim a subscription to a hard core pornography publication. I have never had the courage to use the analogy. Thanks your bluntness in fact respect. It was dead on the money.

[ex-shep]

I guess if it is possible that God was behind getting you out of your old church (cult) mess, could it also be possible that He wants you to "never return to Egypt?" Like not looking look back. This may include any people, habits, mannerisms, language, music, practices, etc. that you picked up while in that false church. Could this be a possibility?[/QUOTE]

Very thought provoking.

In my experience, there were times that I as much distance from my former group to get the groupspeak out of my head. Moving out of state was the best thing I could do.

As time went on I could look back at some the more positive aspects of my groups. Sometimes there were just some wild and nutty things that went on that were the things of slapstick comedies.

I need to look back to for points of reference so I see the warnings signs of potential group abuse. I also do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past. My experience strength and hope have helped others. I gave a talk at my alma mater on cults. As a result, I met several years later the brother of student who was lost to a mind science cult. The next day after the talk, somebody called Wellspring after reading a write up in the school paper. He was educated about his group and made the decision to leave.

There is a saying in the 150 years old church I attend which could summarize one's group experience, "We have to own our history; but not let it own us".

[ex-shep]

Well... I'm like that too. I need to give people some quarter until they prove to be unsafe for me. I'm not completely sure of a relationship out side of work with this person. I suspect I should give her a chance. I'm forever avoiding and putting off invitations, etc. I'm not sure if I'm paranoid or truly feeling pressured. I think maybe she's somewhat overbearing. Does that translate into unsafe? I'm not sure... :rolleyes:


I am really careful with Tammy in that respect-- but that is another post.

I struggle with the above issue too. My 12 step groups and the downtown church are safe venues. Work can be iffy for me too sometimes. Am I being too vigilant or it is once burned twice shy. Good points. I am glad am not the only one in that respect. :)

[Florence]

I have very little good to say about "church." I have a lot of good to say about God. I have struggled with getting the two mixed up - after all, the church is supposed to be the "body of Christ" and Christians are supposed to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I used to think that if a "Christian" - especially in pastoral role - thought poorly of me, then God must think poorly of me.

I know better now. I don't have to invite people to church to share with them the goodness and love of God. I recently was at a conference in which Martha Williamson (producer of "Touched by an Angel" and "Promised Land") was the keynote speaker. She said they never used the name "Jesus" in those shows. Her exact quote was, "We want people to see Jesus, but they have to see us first." She also said, "Don't hit people over the head with Jesus, hit them in the heart."

I am much more concerned now with being kind and caring to my friends, neighbors, and co-workers than in whether or not they are going to church. I want them to see Jesus, yes. And I know they have a better chance of that through me than through any church I could ever invite them to.

Just my two cents worth.
Florence

[Voyager]

To me, being on a spiritual abuse forum and trying to speak kindly about church would be like being on a rape abuse forum and trying to speak kindly about rapists. Others may not agree with this perspective, and if so, I respect your views also. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

You know, I can see how this would come across to some people as a little extreme - and it probably is. Putting all churches in the same league as rapists is probably about as extreme as putting all men in the same category with rapists. But, some women who have been raped do that too.

I guess the patterns of recovery are very similar with many different forms of abuse. We tend to go to extremes as a form of natural defense. I can see where women who have been raped might want to stay away from all men - maybe even for good. In the same manner, many spiritual abuse victims write off church for good.

This is where the controversy comes in. People in general seem to be very willing to understand and accept the notion that rape victims might want to stay away from men. But many religious people cannot accept the fact that spiritual abuse victims might want to stay away from church. That goes against their whole philosophy that church attendance is a requirement by God, and that staying away from church equals rejecting God - possibly even for eternity (and they are quick to inform you of it).

Can anyone relate?

:cool:

[LadyLavender]

Something similar to this happened to me. I took a belly dancing class(yah i'm burnin in hell *sarcastic* ) anyhow i love the class, the music, the dancing everything. And my teacher was just great. However she kept asking me "What church do you go to?" I named a church i visit occasionally and immediately clammed up which im sure she noticed. Anyways, She kept saying that I am welcome to come to her church. I always said thank you but never went any further. Finally she asked me to go to church with her and i was caught off guard. And as usual i did the people pleasing thing. I wanted to say no, but found myself floundering with actually saying it and ended up saying yes.
On the way home i literally felt sick. By the time I got home I was very distraught and crying and felt trapped.
It wasn't until my mom told me "CALL HER AND CANCEL" I mean it seems so obvious. I mean i was almost hyperventilating from my crying and paranoia.. I still couldn't do it. It wasn't until the next afternoon after i'd really cried to God about it that i was able to call her and i just told her I couldn't do it due to me coming out of a bad church experience and i totally and completely was not interested in church.
And she was very nice about it and hasn't bothered me about it since.
But it was a difficult experience...
LadyLavender :eek:

[dwilliams]

I think this applies....
Maybe not. You decide. Just turn up the speakers and enjoy. I sure did. :)

http://www.rockymountainministries.org/SteepleSong_DonFrancisco.mp3

I know so many people and churches made up of those who walk around seemingly thinking they have been given a gift of judgement from God or something....

I am impressed on the rare occasion that I see a Christian actually take a real interest in the welfare of others, rather than strutting around with delusions of granduer for an awesome mansion in the sky....kwim?


...hope this comment fits this thread...
Maybe I shoulda started a new one...?
If so, take it as it is. :)

[dwilliams]

Lady Lavender Wrote:
"i just told her I couldn't do it due to me coming out of a bad church experience and i totally and completely was not interested in church."

Way to go, girl! :)


Your mother gave you some good advice.

The lady's following actions seem to show that she is accepting as well.
There really are good folks in this world.
The really good ones are those who can say, "I don't understand your situation, but I accept you and respect you enough to let you alone."

[Kerrin]

[
This is where the controversy comes in. People in general seem to be very willing to understand and accept the notion that rape victims might want to stay away from men. But many religious people cannot accept the fact that spiritual abuse victims might want to stay away from church. That goes against their whole philosophy that church attendance is a requirement by God, and that staying away from church equals rejecting God - possibly even for eternity (and they are quick to inform you of it).

Can anyone relate? :cool:

:( sadly, yes,
THis is where my struggle is at, and why I feel safe here, with this "body of Christ", I can't bring myself to go to church anywhere although I miss certain aspects, and the genuine impartation of Christ's great commission!!
I'm trying in my own pathetic way to be obedient and remain faithful and be a "good" christian, But why do I need some Pastors approval/evaluation of my performance?? That's my fear I'll fall into that trap again and get lost again........
Kerrin.
Bless you all

[ex-shep]

Those are the words I found myself saying to a coworker yesterday when she asked... no begged me... to visit church with her just once. She said, "I am not trying to evangelize you... I just want to share something that is part of my life with you because you are my friend." How can I say NO to something like that? I told her I would think about it. The response I have come up with is that she should visit an all white biker bar with me once then I will visit all black church with her once. I don't think she'll go for the biker bar scene... hehe. Sneaky, am I?


10 points that was great

Get the poster a latte!! My response was to have the inviter read Cultproofing Your Kids by Paul Martin. Then we can talk about. I usually end up educating the inviter about cults and mind control. I love the church, but I have to respect others. Our employer got a black eye when a pilot preached to the passengers.

There is a saying with the senior pastor, "Thou shalt not corner sinners in the produce section" Instead we in the demonination are to have visible witness when the occassion evolves on its own. I have a homebound friend who wants to go to church and loves the sermons and the bible I gave him. This is the way the conversations have evolved. By contrast I have a woman co-worker who is fragile and defensive after an apparently abusive marriage. The best I can do is pray for her, inject a little sunshine and some humourous one liners to get her thinking. Trying to let one's light shine with out burning and blinding everyone around can be a tricky business. I have been on the sending a recieving end of thougthless efforts at evangelism and was not nice.

Good post. Got me thinking.

[ex-shep]

Of course this Jack Benny fan cannot help but remember the longest laugh in radio broadcasting history when Jack was confronted by a robber, "Hey bud, you money or life, What's going to be"

The famous response from comedic tightwad. "I'm thinking about it"

Certainly sums up the feeling when confronted by even the most healthy and well meaning church person.

[ex-shep]

The more I think about it.. the more I realize what a stupid post this was. I'd delete it if I could. All I can do now is flail my arms and torture myself over it.

I would not beat yourself up over it. It is an understandable defense mechanism.

I had a similar situation when I was at convention at work. I had a nosy christian who was upset that I did not talk to my parents and was throwing the honor your mother and father lines at me. I came back with, "When you have read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, then we can talk about it"

[Voyager]

"When you have read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, then we can talk about it."

I hear you! I think that this is a big problem for many of us. We had a toxic family, so we replaced it with what we thought was a functional church family, only to find out the hard way that it was toxic too.

:(

[ex-shep]

I hear you! I think that this is a big problem for many of us. We had a toxic family, so we replaced it with what we thought was a functional church family, only to find out the hard way that it was toxic too.

:(


Excellent point. I certainly describes my family of origin and how I was set for cult involvement. Describes Tammy to a tee.

[Kerrin]

Excellent point. I certainly describes my family of origin and how I was set for cult involvement. Describes Tammy to a tee.

DITTO!!!
Kerrin